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Featured Are we created eternal?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Johnny4ChristJesus, Oct 14, 2018.

  1. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    Many theologies out there - such as this one - likely the most popular christian theology

    Futurism (Christianity) - Wikipedia

    Nothing is forcing me on anything, I study the Bible independently, I do not attend church. I look for overwhelming scripture to support as much as possible on different topics. I study various theologies to gain understanding of what theology is being put forth. I also study cultures, history and archaeology and compare same with Holy Scripture, but in the end it's about the Word of God. This is my personal approach, others have different approaches. That's fine .... and we discuss them. No doubt it's a life-long pursuit for all of us and I believe most earnestly do seek the truth of Gods word.

    Acts 2

    Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.

    Each of us are responsible for what we believe.

    Romans 14:12

    So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.

    So, round and round we go .... where we stop? Only God knows.

    God Bless.
     
  2. ~Anastasia~

    ~Anastasia~ † Servant of God † Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    Well, only God is eternal, in the sense that He always existed and always will. I'm pretty sure that's not what you meant though. I'm just trying to be precise. :)

    Human beings are created to be existing forever from the point of their creation. We are created in the image and likeness of God, and God has no intention that part of His image be completely obliterated. But it is of course so marred in some people as to be unrecognizable.

    It's not a matter of adding spirit to soul, unless you go back to Adam. Whatever you believe about creation, the breath from God which made Adam (and by extension, mankind which descended from him) a "living soul" was the spirit with which man can connect with God. These terms - soul/spirit/heart/mind/etc. can get confused and in different eras are spoken of a little differently. Orthodoxy does not draw a hard line to separate soul and spirit (unless it is with the understanding of something "soulish" being that which animates the body - even animals have a kind of soul).

    I'm not explaining this well. Forgive me. You ask deep questions and I purposely didn't try to get into all of that. ;)

    For the purposes of how we live our lives and relate to God, we are essentially two-part beings - the physical (body) and the non-physical (soul/spirit/mind/heart/nous - not to say these are all equivalent). We understand that a part of the non-physical is a kind of higher faculty - usually called the nous in Greek writing (no direct English translation) - the nous is that part of ourselves by which we can commune with God, be aware of Him, etc.

    I know some Protestant teaching somewhat mirrors this with body-soul-spirit distinctions. Sometimes others mean something else though. So I don't want to cause confusion. Sorry - that's why the long answer. :)

    So - when God endowed Adam with that faculty, Adam was a human being that could have lived forever, and ideally would have. Sin engendered physical death, because it was something like an infection, and because it was the means by where we cut ourselves off from God, the Source of Life. NOTHING would continue completely cut off from God. But all human beings are created as Adam was, with that same faculty. All bodies die, because of the inherited condition of sin, but all spirits/souls continue - conscious - when separated from the body. And all bodies will be resurrected one day, reunited with spirit/soul, and once again all humans will be whole for the judgement.

    There is no dogma concerning this as far as I can discover. God did not create a place of fire with the express purpose of punishing persons forever. (The "did not" applies to every word taken together - not perhaps some parts.) However, those who oppose Him won't be alongside those who live in blessing. They will experience a fiery torment forever. And God will still love them, which they will experience with bitter torment.

    One thing about Orthodoxy is that we don't try to explain and dogmatize beyond what the Apostles taught us. What that means for us is that sometimes nuances of beliefs are allowed. The Church gives us outside parameters like a fence - which I think I outlined all those above. As long as your belief falls within those parameters, we are allowed to disagree on those details we are not given. So there's some room for interpretation.

    Part of the difference in mindset between east and west is that the west (Catholics and Protestants) tend to want to categorize and explain everything. The east acknowledges that not everything was explained, so we hold fast to what we DO know from the Apostles, but do not try to reason out other things and then give those the same level of authority as what has been revealed and handed down. (I know others don't intentionally raise teaching to the level of what the Apostles said either, but sometimes interpretation can have that effect. If we read Scripture a certain way - that wasn't intended - and we then take our interpretation as having that level of authority, that's what we do. Even a word meaning can do this - often that's what happens - without us even realizing it.)

    I hope I haven't been offensive in how I said any of this. It's actually a very difficult thing to understand on a deep level, but I tried to explain in a way that can bridge between everyone. Forgive me for all the ways I've probably failed.

    God be with you. :)
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2018
  3. ~Anastasia~

    ~Anastasia~ † Servant of God † Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    Oops, I didn't address something. We would not say God ever "forces" Himself on anyone. Part of the whole thread of human history is due to the fact that He endowed us humans, created in His image, with the dignity of free will. He is completely free, as are we (until and to the degree we make ourselves slaves of sin and the flesh).

    But God is everywhere present. For now we are shielded from the effects of that. God told even Moses that he would die in the direct presence of God. But in the age to come, God will be fully present with man in a way we can't describe now. Those who hate God are in a worse state that Moses was, and yet they will be in bodies that cannot physically die --- so they will live in that reality.

    God forces nothing on persons. He simply IS.
     
  4. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    2 Corinthians 5:6-8
    6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.

    If we are in our earthly bodies we are not yet in heaven therefore absent from the Lord. We will not be with the Lord until His 2nd coming.

    7 For we walk by faith, not by sight.

    8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

    rather to be absent, yes, I'd rather be absent from my body and present with the Lord, but that will happen at His 2nd coming.

    The Return of the Lord

    13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

    15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

    18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

    Amen.

    God Bless.
     
  5. JM001

    JM001 New Member

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    Well technically, NONE of us are literally eternal in terms of always existing. Because only God was eternal, before he created us we didn't exist. Now from this point on? The righteous are eternal, the wicked aren't. That's what the word of God says. As God created our souls, he also has the power to destroy them. But he won't for those who believe in Christ.
     
  6. 1213

    1213 Disciple of Jesus

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    Bible tells the torment is the fire. So, if something is tormented, it means, it burns. Those who are in hell, burn forever. But I have no reason to think they are living or feeling anything while they, or what is remaining of them, burns.
     
  7. 1213

    1213 Disciple of Jesus

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    I have understood that death and hades are places and places can be thrown in to the fire. And actually, I think this life is the first death, that is why Jesus came to rescue us from death to life. Life is with God and it is only for righteous. That is why I think others will not live forever.

    These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
    Mat. 25:46

    For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
    Romans 6:23

    Most assuredly I tell you, he who hears my word, and believes him who sent me, has eternal life, and doesn't come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
    John 5:24
     
  8. DM25

    DM25 Well-Known Member

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    No reason to think that because the bible never says it. A lot of people don't realize that there isn't a single verse in scripture that claims the souls will be under eternal conscious torment.
     
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  9. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Jesus said "These [on the left] go into "eternal punishment."Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] in his Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4 said about punishment, "Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.”
    The lake of fire passages, in context.
    Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
    Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
    Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
    And 1000 years later, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are still in the lake of fire.
    Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and they] shall be tormented [plural verb] day and night for ever and ever.
    Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
    Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
    The lake of fire [LOF] is called “the second death” twice in Rev. vss. 20:14 and 21:8. While this is true, Rev. never says that anyone is thrown into the LOF then they die. The terms the “lake of fire” and “ the second death” are interchangeable, “the lake of fire” is “the second death” and the “second death” is “the lake of fire,” thus we can see that it is not synonymous with death or destruction.
    …..We also see that being thrown into the LOF is not synonymous with death from ev 19:20, where the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are thrown into the LOF and 1000 years later in 20:10 the devil, is thrown into the LOF. Three living beings, are thrown into the LOF but they do not die, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever. There is not one verse in Revelation which says anyone or anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies.
    …..Rev 20:14 says death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Death is the point in time end of life, it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere. Since neither death nor hell could or have died a first death they can’t die a second death. But there is a scriptural answer which does not involve jumping through hoops mixing literal and figurative in one sentence, there is a death and hell which can be thrown into the LOF.

    Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
    The angel of death and the demon of hell are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.
    More verses which show that the LoF is not synonymous with death or destruction. Rev 21:4 says “there shall be no more death” in vs. 5 Jesus said “Behold I make all things new.” “No more death””all things new” but 3 verses later Rev 21:8 says certain groups “shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.” If there is no more death after vs. 4 then those thrown into the lake of fire in vs. 8 do not die.

    Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
    Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
    Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
     
  10. DM25

    DM25 Well-Known Member

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    I'm glad you quoted this because this is the only verse in the bible that claims there will be eternal torment, but guess what? Read what it says. It says this will be for the devil, not the wicked humans. Nowhere in scripture does it say the torment will be eternal for humans. As with your other verses, it says the fire will be eternal, the punishment (death) will be eternal, not eternal conscious torment! The wicked will be burned to death, as God is life and the opposite is death. The wages of sin is death, and the wicked shall perish in the lake of fire.
     
  11. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    <DM25>I'm glad you quoted this because this is the only verse in the bible that claims there will be eternal torment, but guess what? Read what it says. It says this will be for the devil, not the wicked humans. Nowhere in scripture does it say the torment will be eternal for humans. As with your other verses, it says the fire will be eternal, the punishment (death) will be eternal, not eternal conscious torment! The wicked will be burned to death, as God is life and the opposite is death. The wages of sin is death, and the wicked shall perish in the lake of fire.<end>
    I note that you quoted only 2 of the verses I discussed, which you misinterpret to make them agree with your assumptions/presuppositions, and ignored the rest.
    .....More verses which show that the LoF is not synonymous with death or destruction. Rev 21:4 says “there shall be no more death” in vs. 5 Jesus said “Behold I make all things new.” “No more death””all things new” but 3 verses later Rev 21:8 says certain groups “shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.” If there is no more death after vs. 4 then those thrown into the lake of fire in vs. 8 do not die.

    Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death,neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
    Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
    Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
    Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
    Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
    Since 4 verses earlier Jesus said there is no more death, all these people will not die in the LoF. Here is another passage to consider.
    Revelation 14:9-11
    (9) And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
    (10) The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
    (11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
     
  12. DM25

    DM25 Well-Known Member

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    Wrong again. I didn't do what you accused me of. It takes a long time to quote every single quote you make, and I was talking about this topic in another thread so I got exhausted making the same points over and over again and I don't spend my entire day on this forum. And I did mention your other quotes of verses and told you none of them speak of eternal suffering. Here is a fact after looking at all of the verses you posted, not a single verse you posted speaks of 'eternal torment' for the wicked. Just look at them.... It is not there. Did I ever say there won't be torment? No, I said it won't be eternal. Every single one of the verse you posted speaks on torment alone, or eternal punishment (death), NOT eternal torment. It is not found in the bible! Except for demons in that one verse, which is why I quoted it because it was special case. This means we can infer the death of the wicked will be a painful one, they will die in their suffering in the lake of fire. I hope you understand this. "Smoke of their torment" is not the actual conscious torment! It specifically says "smoke" of torment, meaning that the fire will last forever, not the suffering. What are you not understanding about this? There is another verse eternalists use "their worms dieth not". Again, is that saying the torment is eternal? No it is saying the worms (referencing maggots found in dumpsters in Jerusalem) that eat them won't get hungry and die because they will eat and destroy the entire body. Just proves my point even more. The wicked will suffer and burn and DIE in the lake of fire. A lot of people have been indoctrinated by a popular view by the church and make assumptions before actually reading the verse for how they are and taking them as they are.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2018
  13. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    If you ignore everything I post then you can make the Bible say almost anything you want it to. When groups of people are thrown into the lake of fire but they do not die, what happens to them?
    .....The maggot in the dumpsters is a recent concoction. Here is what the Jews before and during the times of Jesus believed.

    (I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
    But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
    … heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).

    Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
    Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
    When Jesus taught about e.g.,
    • “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:Matthew 25:41
    • "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
    • "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
    • "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
    • “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.Matthew 18:6
    • “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.Matthew 7:23
    • “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. Matthew 26:24
    • “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12
    These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishmen than death or nonexistence. A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.
    Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
    29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
    30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
    31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
    Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as merely death, it would have meant something worse to them.
    …..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,
    “‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4​
    …..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which only reinforced those beliefs.


     
  14. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Even for the devil, beast & false prophet the torment (Rev.20:10) is not eternal:

    More accurate, literal & honest translations say:

    and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night-to the ages of the ages. (Rev.20:10, YLT)

    And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons. (Rev.20:10, Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983)

    ...and the Adversary that had been deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [were] both the wild-beast and the false-prophet; and they shall be tormented
    day and night unto the ages of ages. (Rev.20:10, Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959

    American Standard Version footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.
    Revised Version, 1881 footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.

    Does ages of the ages have an end? Christ's reign is "to the ages of the ages":

    And the seventh messenger did sound, and there came great voices in the heaven, saying, 'The kingdoms of the world did become those of our Lord and of His Christ, and he shall reign to the ages of the ages!' (Rev.11:15, YLT)

    But His reign is "until" He gives up the Kingdom to the Father:

    24 Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. (1 Corinthians 15)

    So Christ's reign "to the ages of the ages" is not "forever and ever". Therefore the phrase "to the ages of the ages" can be understood of a limited time period that comes to an end. So those in the lake of fire are not punished there "for ever and ever" (Rev.20:10).

    Also, "forever and ever" is nonsense. No time can be added to "forever".

    When Christ's reign ends (1 Cor.15 above), this will lead to God being "All in all" (v.28). IOW everyone will be saved, as all will be "in Christ" (v.22).

    12 points re forever and ever being finite:
    For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
     
  15. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What relevance do such extrabiblical Jewish beliefs have? Jesus said to beware of the teaching of the Pharisees, who BTW believed in endless punishment.

    "Jesus warned His disciples to “watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees,” which was their false teaching (Matt. 16:6,12)."

    "Not giving heed to Jewish myths, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14).
    Jesus said re the Pharisees: "...in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men." (Mt.15:8-9)

    "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)

    Jesus, speaking to Pharisees, said:

    John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.


    Scripture says:

    "Not giving heed to Jewish myths, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth."
    (Titus 1:14).

    Jesus said re the Pharisees: "...in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men." (Mt.15:8-9)

    "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)



    Unproven & irrelevant. Whether true or not. Scripture says:

    "Jesus warned His disciples to “watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees,” which was their false teaching (Matt. 16:6,12)."

    "Not giving heed to Jewish myths, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14). Jesus said re the Pharisees: "...in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men." (Mt.15:8-9)

    "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)

    Jesus, speaking to Pharisees, said:

    John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.



    2 Timothy 4:4: And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

    Such as the fable or myth of endless torments of the Dark & Middle ages, Inquisitions, Crusades, burning of "heretics", etc.

    In contrast to the fables & myths of endless torments, Paul says again to Timothy:

    1Tim.4:9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. 10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    1Tim.2 1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


    If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?
     
  16. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Those are deceptive erroneous translations:

    Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

    Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

    Is aionion necessarily coequal in duration with aionion (in Mt.25:46)?


    Mark 9 43-49 addressed here:

    Early church opposition to endless hell


    Addressed at the following url. Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment:

    The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism


    Addressed here:

    Matthew 7:21-23:
    how do people who believe in eternal torture in fire

    Addressed here:

    Early church opposition to endless hell


    Nope. That's pure assumption. And wrong.


    A fate compared to death is nothing. Death is merely the instant one passes from this life to the next. And the word "nonexistence" is nowhere used in the Old or New Testaments. The urls above address those Matthew passages in detail.


    That passages opposes your theories:

    10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

    Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

    Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

    Heb.1:2a in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all

    Heb.1:3b When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high

    Heb.2:2b every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty

    Heb.2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
    7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

    8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put
    under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

    9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by
    the grace of God should taste death for every man.

    14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render
    powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,

    15 And might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.

    He didn't teach "eternal punishment". Neither did He use the language you quoted above from some Jews, e.g. Pharisees. Instead He warned His disciples re the false teachings of the Pharisees & their "traditions of men" that oppose the Word of God. He said not to give heed to Jewish fables & myths. That includes horror tales as like what you've quoted above from Judaism, which opposes Biblical Christianity.
     
  17. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Compare:

    Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
    Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
    32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

    Clearly the Greek/Hebrew words mistranslated "everlasting", "eternal" & "forever" in pro endless hell biased translations do not always mean what they seem to mean, e.g.:

    Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever. (Exo.21:6)

    https://www.christianforums.com/threads/augustines-ignorance-error-re-matthew-25-46.8041938/l
    Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?
    Is aionion necessarily coequal in duration with aionion (in Mt.25:46)?



    Lame. Nothing there says anyone will suffer endless tortures. Jesus could have easily expressed such a thought, if that was His belief. Since He never does, He doesn't believe such a thing. See also:

    Early church opposition to endless hell


    In Mt.18:6 is the lame warning of a punishment which is compared to mere drowning, which is nothing compared to being kept alive for the sole purpose of being tortured for all the "endless" ages of eternity that have "no end" & "never" cease. Jesus says it is "better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea". OTOH, if He had been a believer in endless punishment, He could have expressed that by saying it is better for them to have never lived, never been conceived, or that their parents had never known (had sex with) one another. Compare this anti-biblical Jewish view that the Lord Jesus Christ, Love Omnipotent, rejected:

    "To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners (Ḥag. 15a). Hence it would have been better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b)." GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com

    "never" (Mt.7:23, etc)...this word appears to occur 16 times in the NT & it seems that it never means anything except "never". It is used of "love never fails" (1 Cor.13:8). It also occurs in Mt.7:23 where Jesus says "I never knew you; depart you from Me, those working lawlessness." Which is such an incredibly lame remark, if Love Omnipotent believed in endless torments. If He believed that such an unspeakably horrific final destiny awaits the wicked, including those He was referring to in Mt.7:23, why didn't He make it clear by telling them that they would "never" be saved and/or He would "never" know them? Would that not have been clear & unambiguous, unlike the words He spoke, & unlike the ambiguous aion & aionios, which often refer to finite duration in ancient Koine Greek? OTOH consider re the use of the word "never":

    "Philo saith, “The punishment of the wicked person is, ζην αποθανοντα αει, to live for ever dying, and to be for ever in pains, and griefs, and calamities that never cease..." Mark 9 Benson Commentary

    Yet Scripture - never - uses such language. Moreover, it speaks of death being abolished, not being "for ever".

    Better not to have been born. Not to have never existed.

    Jesus said it would have been better if Judas had not been born. He did not say it would have been better if Judas had never been conceived or existed. The latter opposes universalism, the former does not necessarily do so. One who dies in the womb without being born has existed. To not be born & die before being born means that one existed.

    It would be better to be (1) concieved (& therefore to exist) & not be born than (2) to be born & live a wicked life (e.g. Judas Iscariot), because the former is in better standing with God than the latter (compare, for example, Lk.12:47-48). Judas will suffer the wrath of God of which the child in utero, who was never born, is not deserving. Therefore, for Judas, it would have been better if he had never been born, but died in his mother's womb. But, though he will suffer the wrath of God, this does not rule out the possibility of his ultimate salvation. Therefore Mt.26:24 fails as a proof text against him being saved.


    None of those verses refer to a "fate worse than...nonexistence". And a "fate worse than death" need not be endless tortures & is nowhere near being similar to endless tortures. Compare:

    Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

    Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

    Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.


    All Scripture is inspired of God. Paul is in harmony with what the 4 Gospels & Jesus say about the Lord being the Savior of the world, of all mankind. For Paul's inspired words of truth are from the risen Lord Jesus Christ Himself.

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
    Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism
     
  18. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Then, by the same reasoning, the "parallel" in Rom.5:19 proves Scriptural universalism to be true:

    Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

    Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

    1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

    1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

    Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
    20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

    And your translation of Mt.25:46 contradicts this translation of Lamentations 3:

    Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
    32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.

    While these translations (& others) of Mt.25:46 are in harmony with all the verses above i have posted:

    The New Testament: A Translation, by Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017, Yale Press):
    "And these shall go to the chastening of that Age, but the just to the life of that Age."

    Youngs Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1898:
    "And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."

    Emphatic Diaglott, 1942 edition
    "And these shall go forth to the aionian 1 cutting-off; but the RIGHTEOUS to aionian Life."

    Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983
    And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

    Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959
    "And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, But the righteous into age-abiding life."

    Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

    75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
    Web Online Help

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  19. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    So, if that is true, how can we have eternal life? Do you think that is a lie?
     
  20. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I am inclined to agree with most of what you said. I love the SD Card analogy! I agree that "the rich man and Lazarus" is a true story that Jesus shared to give us a glimpse of the different resting places. He chose to do that. He differentiated the rich man--who got his good things in this life--from Lazarus--who got bad things in this life. There was no mention of the Law on Lazarus' part, just a life of suffering. In addition, right before He shared that story, He talked to the Pharisees about God knowing hearts and not one tittle of the Law failing and then right after the story, He told His disciples "woe to those through whom offenses come", forgive your brother and responds to their request for more faith.
    I differentiate between Sheol/Hades (holding place of dead whether pleasant--Abraham's bosom--or uncomfortable like hell) and Gehenna/Lake of Fire/Hell. I am still not convinced that Abraham's bosom/Paradise is empty and that the dead in Christ are already in heaven without glorified bodies or the return of Christ.

    I don't believe that all who tried to follow the Law were even in Abraham's bosom. And, some who made some very bad decisions, like King David, will still be found in heaven. God looks at the heart and makes His judgments differently than man does. The Apostle Paul strove to keep the Law so fervently that he considered Jesus Christ and all those who testified about him to be a frauds right up until Jesus appeared to him. God saw his genuine heart and, wow, look what the LORD has done!

    I believe Jesus meets some on the way and He intervenes, because God knows the heart. I believe this includes children who die before "the age of decision" and those who may have never heard the Gospel. That way, Jesus is and always will be the only Way to the Father. I just believe there are times, like in Paul's case, where He intervenes in unique ways for those who believe God is and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him (even those, like Paul, who temporarily have a backwards understanding).

    Thanks again for the SD card analogy. I really appreciate that one! The Lake of Fire is definitely a unique concept, given the variety of entities thrown into it (human souls, satan and his angels, death, and hades/sheol/the grave). The fire that we think of wouldn't contain a demon--they threw people into fires.
     
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