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Featured Are we created eternal?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Johnny4ChristJesus, Oct 14, 2018.

  1. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

    United States
    For those that have been following my recent line of questions, thank you for your help as I continue to re-examine my theology.

    I have been asking a question that was probably the wrong question to ask. My deeper question was always are we created as eternal beings? If you believe we are, what aspect of us is eternal--whether we are born again or not?

    Why do I ask?

    I read things like "the rich man and Lazarus" (Luke 16:19-31). The rich man, as a dead man, is communicating with Abraham. I don't believe that was a fictional story. And, I read Rev 20:4-5, 15. The second death is something that affects and contains the angels, the humans, and other entities that weren't written or are no longer in the Book of Life. What we think of as fire wouldn't contain the fallen angels, afterall, a demon-possessed boy was being thrown into fire by one of them.

    If something didn't happen that makes us all eternal creatures, why would the second death be needed for humans--other than to demonstrate the wrath of God?

    Furthermore, if the dead have no consciousness that continues beyond physical death, then God has to actually make them alive again, simply to say "I told you so" and then punish them?

    How can you see it differently?
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  2. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

    United States
    Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

    If Adam and Eve required to eat from the tree of life to live forever----then they were not created eternal.

    Rev_2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
    Rev_22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
    Rev_22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

    We get the tree of life back after the resurrection.
  3. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

    United States
    Great verses. Thanks for contributing. So, what happened to Abraham, Moses, David, etc, before Jesus came into the world and paid the price. Were they just dead? Jesus said that "God is not the god of the dead, but of the living." They couldn't have been born again. At the mount of transfiguration, how did Moses and Elijah come meet with Jesus, if they had no life yet?

    Not trying to argue. I really feel like God has me onto something and I'm going to see it through, until I have peace about it.
  4. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

    United States
    You will get many different answers depending on their religious believes., I do not believe we go to heaven or hell on death. I believe in what Jesus calls death---sleep. He described it several times as sleep and it is described that several times in the NT
    Matt 9:24 Lu 8:52 John 11:11--14--1 Cor. 11:30 1 Cor 15:51 1 Thes 4:14

    Enoch and Elijah were translated to heaven without seeing death---
    Gen_5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
    Heb_11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

    Act_2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
    Moses was resurrected (that is my believe from Jud 1:9--others don't agree)

    I also do not believe in an everlasting burning hell---that takes many verses--there is over 28 of them---there are bout 24 or so that seem to indicate there is. It is a matter of interpretation of certain words. When verses seem to contradict, then look to the character of God to see which is the more accurate portrayal of His character.

    These things can be a sometimes lengthy study--can't decide from one verse--you must look at all verses about the topic you are interested in before you draw any conclusions and always pray that you follow the truth and be not misguided.
    2Ti_2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
    But don't overdo---there is also this:
    Ecc_12:12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.

    Take your time with frequent breaks!!!
  5. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

    "Eternal" - to me - means without beginning of end. That applies only to the members of the Godhead: the Father, the Son and the Seven Spirits of God. We, as created beings, have a beginning and even if we live forever (after the resurrection) we are not eternal.
  6. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

    United States
    Yes--you are more accurate. I should have said we are not immortal. God alone is immortal. Many on here believe we have an immortal soul--I do not believe that.

    1Ti 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
    1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
    1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
  7. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

    United States
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2018
  8. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

    United States
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2018
  9. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

    Romans 11:32, KJV "For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all."


    Romans 6:7. KJV "For he that is dead is freed from sin."

    So, all die, but all are then freed from their sin, and in God's timing, all receive mercy.
  10. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

    United States
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2018
  11. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

    United States
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2018
  12. ~Anastasia~

    ~Anastasia~ † Servant of God † Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    Physical death is the separation of soul/spirit from the physical body. The body begins to decay. The spirit is conscious, and will have an experience based on the person's relationship with God in life. The judgement is not yet.

    At the end of the age, ALL bodies will be resurrected and reunited with soul/spirit, so that all persons will be as God created us - composite beings with both soul/spirit and body. Then comes the judgement.

    The experience after judgement will depend (again) on the person's relationship with God. Eternal life will be a result of being in communion with God, who is the very source of life. Those who reject Him utterly will not be annihilated but will continue to exist. Indeed, God even loves them. But their hatred of Him will mean that His very presence, love, and mercy are a scourge and torment - our God is a consuming fire. They won't cease to exist, but they would probably prefer that.

    The second death isn't the end of existence, but it is forever being cut off from God as the source of life, since those who oppose Him will be fixed in their state after the judgement. Just as the original death was the result of sin cutting us off from God - the source of life. But those who are in communion with Him won't be cut off in the judgement, so there is no "second death" for them. The first death (resulting from Adam's sin) was defeated by Christ, and so is overcome. The second death - any who choose to be cut off from God - won't be reversible by any means and will be eternal after the judgement.

    Most of this is demonstrated throughout the Scriptures, but I only had a few moments to reply.
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  13. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

    United States
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2018
  14. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member Supporter

    United States
    The answer is no to the question but yes in a round about way. He is the deal.... Adam was "created" by God, we were not. Adam was created to live eternally but when he sinned, the wage was death. We are the product of creation, but we come out of a process wherein a man and woman come together and come as close to "creating" as is humanly possible. Simply put, we were not created directly by God, Adam was. And, because Adam and all who followed are born with the death gene (so to speak), we are not born to live eternally in that condition... we need the work of messiah applied to us in order to be in that condition.
  15. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

    United States
    State of the Dead

    Death just might be one of the most misunderstood subjects today. For many, death is shrouded in mystery and evokes dread, uncertainty, and hopelessness. Others believe that their deceased loved ones are not dead at all, but instead live with them or in other realms.

    Adam was created by God in the beginning.

    How did humans get here in the first place?

    “The Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being” (Genesis 2:7).

    Answer: God made us from dust in the beginning.

    What happens when a person dies?

    “Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it” (Ecclesiastes 12:7).

    Answer: The body turns to dust again, and the spirit goes back to God, who gave it. The spirit of every person who dies—whether saved or unsaved—returns to God at death.

    What is the “spirit” that returns to God at death?

    “The body without the spirit is dead” (James 2:26).
    “The spirit of God is in my nostrils” (Job 27:3 KJV).

    Answer: The spirit that returns to God at death is the breath of life. Nowhere in all of God’s book does the “spirit” have any life, wisdom, or feeling after a person dies. It is the “breath of life” and nothing more.

    These four people are four souls.

    What is a "soul"?

    “The Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul” (Genesis 2:7 KJV).

    Answer: A soul is a living being. A soul is always a combination of two things: body plus breath. A soul cannot exist unless body and breath are combined. God’s Word teaches that we are souls—not that we have souls.

    Body(Dust) - Breath(Spirit) = Death (No Soul)

    Do souls die?

    “The soul that sinneth, it shall die” (Ezekiel 18:20 KJV).
    “Every living soul died in the sea” (Revelation 16:3 KJV).

    Answer: According to God’s Word, souls do die! We are souls, and souls die. Man is mortal (Job 4:17).

    Only God is immortal (1 Timothy 6:15, 16). The concept of an undying, immortal soul is not found in the Bible, which teaches that souls are subject to death.

    The Bible suggests that King David will be in God’s kingdom, but that he is in his grave now, where he awaits the resurrection.

    Do good people go to heaven when they die?

    “All who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth” (John 5:28, 29).
    “David … is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. … For David did not ascend into the heavens” (Acts 2:29, 34).
    “If I wait, the grave is mine house” (Job 17:13 KJV).

    Answer: No. People do not go to heaven or to hell at death. They don’t go anywhere—but they wait in their graves for the resurrection.

    How much does one know or comprehend after death?

    How much does one know or comprehend after death?

    “The living know that they will die; but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished; nevermore will they have a share in anything done under the sun. … There is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going” (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10).

    “The dead do not praise the Lord” (Psalm 115:17).

    Answer: God says that the dead know absolutely nothing!

    Though millions think it is possible, the dead cannot communicate with the living.

    But can’t the dead communicate with the living, and aren’t they aware of what the living are doing?

    “Man lies down and does not rise. Till the heavens are no more, they will not awake nor be roused from their sleep. … His sons come to honor, and he does not know it; they are brought low, and he does not perceive it” (Job 14:12, 21).

    “Nevermore will they have a share in anything done under the sun” (Ecclesiastes 9:6).

    No. The dead cannot contact the living, nor do they know what the living are doing. They are dead. Their thoughts have perished (Psalm 146:4 KJV).

    Jesus called the unconscious state of the dead “sleep” in John 11:11–14. How long will they sleep?

    Jesus called the unconscious state of the dead “sleep” in John 11:11–14. How long will they sleep?

    “Man lies down and does not rise. Till the heavens are no more” (Job 14:12).
    “The day of the Lord will come … in which the heavens will pass away” (2 Peter 3:10).

    The dead will sleep until the great day of the Lord at the end of the world. In death humans are totally unconscious with no activity or knowledge of any kind.

    What happens to the righteous dead at the second coming of Christ?

    “Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work” (Revelation 22:12).
    “The Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout. … And the dead in Christ will rise. … And thus we shall always be with the Lord” (1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17).
    “We shall all be changed—in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye … and the dead will be raised incorruptible. … For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality” (1 Corinthians 15:51–53).

    They will be rewarded. They will be raised, given immortal bodies, and caught up to meet the Lord in the air. There would be no purpose in a resurrection if people were taken to heaven at death.

    What was the devil’s first lie on Earth?

    What was the devil’s first lie on Earth?

    “The serpent said to the woman, ‘You will not surely die’ ” (Genesis 3:4).
    “That serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan” (Revelation 12:9).

    Answer: You will not die.

    Why did the devil lie to Eve about death? Could this subject be more important than we think?

    Answer: The devil’s lie that we will not die is one of the pillars of his teachings. For thousands of years, he has worked powerful, deceptive miracles to trick people into thinking they are receiving messages from the spirits of the dead. (Examples: Magicians of Egypt—Exodus 7:11; Woman of Endor—1 Samuel 28:3–25; Sorcerers—Daniel 2:2; A slave girl—Acts 16:16–18.)

    A Solemn Warning

    In the near future, Satan will again use sorcery—as he did in the prophet Daniel’s day—to deceive the world (Revelation 18:23). Sorcery is a supernatural agency that claims to receive its power and wisdom from the spirits of the dead.

    Posing as Jesus' Disciples
    Posing as godly loved ones who have died, saintly clergymen who are now dead, Bible prophets, or even the apostles of Christ (2 Corinthians 11:13), Satan and his angels will deceive billions. Those who believe the dead are alive, in any form, will likely be deceived.

    All miracle working is not from God, because devils also work miracles.

    Do devils really work miracles?

    “For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles” (Revelation 16:14, KJV).
    “False christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect” (Matthew 24:24).

    Answer: Yes indeed! Devils work incredibly convincing miracles (Revelation 13:13, 14). Satan will appear as an angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:14) and, even more shocking, as Christ Himself (Matthew 24:23, 24). The universal feeling will be that Christ and His angels are leading out in a fantastic worldwide revival. The entire emphasis will seem so spiritual and be so supernatural that only God’s elect will not be deceived.

    Why will God's people not be deceived?

    14. Why will God's people not be deceived?
    “They received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so” (Acts 17:11).
    “If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them” (Isaiah 8:20).

    God’s people will know from their study of His book that the dead are dead, not alive. They will know that a “spirit” claiming to be a deceased loved one is really a devil! God’s people will reject all teachers and miracle workers who claim to receive special “light” or work miracles by contacting the spirits of the dead. And God’s people will likewise reject as dangerous and false all teachings that claim the dead are alive in any form, anywhere.

    Back in Moses’ day, what did God command should be done to people who taught that the dead were alive?

    Back in Moses’ day, what did God command should be done to people who taught that the dead were alive?

    “A man or a woman who is a medium, or who has familiar spirits, shall surely be put to death; they shall stone them with stones” (Leviticus 20:27).

    Answer: God insisted that mediums and others with “familiar spirits” (who claimed to be able to contact the dead) should be stoned to death. This shows how God regards the false teaching that the dead are alive.

    Will the righteous people who are raised in the resurrection ever die again?
    “Those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead … nor can they die anymore” (Luke 20:35, 36).

    “God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away” (Revelation 21:4).

    No! Death, sorrow, crying, and tragedy will never enter into God’s new kingdom. “When this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: ‘Death is swallowed up in victory’ ” (1 Corinthians 15:54).

    Belief in reincarnation is expanding rapidly today. Is this teaching biblical?
    “The living know that they will die; but the dead know nothing. … Nevermore will they have a share in anything done under the sun” (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6).

    Answer: Almost half the people on earth believe in reincarnation, a teaching that the soul never dies but is instead continually reborn in a different kind of body with each succeeding generation. This teaching, however, is contrary to Scripture.

    The Bible Says

    After death a person: returns to dust (Psalms 104:29), knows nothing (Ecclesiastes 9:5), possesses no mental powers (Psalms 146:4), has nothing to do with anything on earth (Ecclesiastes 9:6), does not live (2 Kings 20:1), waits in the grave (Job 17:13), and continues not (Job 14:1, 2).

    Satan's Invention
    We learned that Satan invented the teaching that the dead are alive. Reincarnation, channeling, communication with spirits, spirit worship, and the "undying soul" are all inventions of Satan, with one aim to convince people that when you die you are not really dead. When people believe that the dead are alive, "spirits of devils, working miracles" (Revelation 16:14) and posing as spirits of the dead will be able to deceive and lead them astray virtually 100 percent of the time (Matthew 24:24).

    Thought Question

    1. Didn’t the thief on the cross go to paradise with Christ the day He died

    No. In fact, on Sunday morning Jesus said to Mary, “I have not yet ascended to My Father” (John 20:17). This shows that Christ did not go to heaven at death. It’s important to note that the punctuation we see in the Bible today is not original, but added centuries later by translators. Another way to put this verse that makes sense in the immediate context is: “I’m telling you today—when it seems that I can save no one, when I Myself am being crucified as a criminal—I give you the assurance today (telling you today) that you will be with me in Paradise.” Christ’s kingdom of glory will be set up at His second coming (Matthew 25:31), and the righteous of all ages will enter it at that time (1 Thessalonians 4:15–17) and not at death.

    Doesn’t the Bible speak of the “undying,” “immortal” soul?

    No. The undying, immortal soul is not mentioned in the Bible. The word “immortal” is found only once in the Bible, and it is in reference to God (1 Timothy 1:17).

    At death the body returns to dust and the spirit (or breath) returns to God. But where does the soul go?

    It goes nowhere. Instead, it simply ceases to exist. Two things must be combined to make a soul: body and breath. When the breath departs, the soul ceases to exist because it is a combination of two things. When you turn off a light, where does the light go? It doesn’t go anywhere. It just ceases to exist. Two things must combine to make a light: a bulb and electricity. Without the combination, a light is impossible. So with the soul; unless body and breath are combined, there can be no soul. There is no such thing as a “disembodied soul.”

    Does the word “soul” ever mean anything other than a living being?

    Yes. It may mean also (1) life itself, or (2) the mind, or intellect. No matter which meaning is intended, the soul is still a combination of two things (body and breath), and it
    ceases to exist at death.

    Can you explain John 11:26: “Whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die”?

    This refers not to the first death, which all people die (Hebrews 9:27), but to the second death, which only the wicked die and from which there is no resurrection (Revelation 2:11; 21:8).

    Matthew 10:28 says, “Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul.” Doesn’t this prove that the soul is undying?

    No. It proves the opposite. The last half of the same verse proves that souls do die. It says, “Rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” The word “soul” here means life and refers to eternal life, which is a gift (Romans 6:23) that will be given to the righteous at the last day (John 6:54). No one can take away the eternal life that God bestows. (See also Luke 12:4, 5.)

    Doesn’t 1 Peter 4:6 say the gospel was preached to dead people?

    No. It says the gospel “was” preached to those who “are” dead. They are dead now, but the gospel “was” preached to them while they were yet living.

    To those who disagree, I agree to disagree.
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  16. Karola

    Karola Active Member

    Very, very well put. I heard a minister say once: Hell is a place where God's presence does not exist. Your post would seem to support that. Those who chose a life without God, will spend eternity outside of his presence(hell)
  17. 1213

    1213 Disciple of Jesus

    I have understood that the rich man is in Hades, not in the hell. Hell is according to the Bible second death, where soul and body are destroyed. I think people who will be destroyed are not eternal beings.

    And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
    Matt. 10:28
  18. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    United States
    And then there is this.
    …..In Isa 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, pfft, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

    Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
    9) Hell [שאול ] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

    10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
    11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

    [ . . . ]
    22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.
    In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon.
    …..Some will argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8. They will argue that the passage must be figurative since God told Israel “take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” vs. 4. The occurrence of one figurative expression in a passage does not prove that anything else in the passage is figurative.
    …..The Hebrew word שאול/mashal translated “proverb” does not necessarily mean something is fictional. For example, Israel did not become fictional when God made them a mashal/proverb in 2 Chronicles 7:20, Psalms 44:14, and Jeremiah 24:9.

    …..Here is another passage where God, Himself, is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

    Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
    18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
    19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
    20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
    21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.

    22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
    Eze 32:30-31
    (30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
    (31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.
    Jesus speaking, in the NT, a dead man in Hades had eyes, was in torment, saw Abraham, “cried and said,” asked for water, begged Abraham, etc.
    Luk 16:22-28
    (22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
    (23) And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
    (24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
    (25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
    (26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
    (27) Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
    (28) For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
    These passages indicate that for the wicked there is some kind of conscious awareness after death. And in none of these passages does God or Jesus say or imply that they are anything but literal.
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  19. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    United States
    Now about hell.
    …..According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.
    …..There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were other beliefs does not change or disprove anything in this post.

    Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
    The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);
    [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any supposed bias of Christian translators. DA]
    (I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
    But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
    … heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
    Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
    Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
    Encyclopedia Judaica:
    Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
    …..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; see *Moloch). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).

    In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
    = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
    Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
    The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
    Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
    When Jesus taught about e.g.,
    • “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:Matthew 25:41
    • "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
    • "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
    • "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
    • “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.Matthew 18:6
    • “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.Matthew 7:23
    • “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. Matthew 26:24
    • “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12
    These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishmen than death or nonexistence. A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.
    Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
    29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
    30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
    31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
    Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as merely death, it would have meant something worse to them.
    …..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

    “‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4
    …..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which only reinforced those beliefs.
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  20. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    United States
    <123>I have understood that the rich man is in Hades, not in the hell. Hell is according to the Bible second death, where soul and body are destroyed. I think people who will be destroyed are not eternal beings.
    And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matt. 10:28<end>
    The lake of fire passages, in context.
    Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
    Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
    Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
    And 1000 years later, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are still alive in the lake of fire.
    Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and they] shall be tormented [plural verb] day and night for ever and ever.
    Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
    Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
    The lake of fire [LOF] is called “the second death” twice in Rev. vss. 20:14 and 21:8. While this is true, Rev. never says that anyone is thrown into the LOF then they die. The terms the “lake of fire” and “ the second death” are interchangeable, “the lake of fire” is “the second death” and the “second death” is “the lake of fire,” thus we can see that it is not synonymous with death or destruction.
    …..We also see that being thrown into the LOF is not synonymous with death from Rev 19:20, where the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are thrown into the LOF and 1000 years later in 20:10 the devil, is thrown into the LOF. Three living beings, are thrown into the LOF but they do not die, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever. There is not one verse in Revelation which says anyone or anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies.
    …..Rev 20:14 says death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Death is the point in time end of life, it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere. Since neither death nor hell could or have died a first death they can’t die a second death. But there is a scriptural answer which does not involve jumping through hoops mixing literal and figurative in one sentence, there is a death and hell which can be thrown into the LOF.

    Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
    The angel of death and the demon of hell are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.
    More verses which show that the LoF is not synonymous with death or destruction. Rev 21:4 says “there shall be no more death” in vs. 5 Jesus said “Behold I make all things new.” “No more death””all things new” but 3 verses later Rev 21:8 says certain groups “shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.” If there is no more death after vs. 4 then those thrown into the lake of fire in vs. 8 do not die.

    Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
    Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
    Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
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