Are there really any parallels between Revelation 20:7-10 and Revelation 19?

[DavidPT]

It's not nonsensical to me because I don't believe that verses 9-11 are referring primarily or only to Revelation 19:11-21 (let's ignore Revelation 20:11-15 for the minute).

I believe the judgment of the beast of Revelation 13:1-2 is a secondary fulfillment, or (the) second fulfillment of the prophecy. The primary fulfillment was the judgment of the kingdom of Antiochus IV - which the lion, leopard and bear outlived.

I believe that Daniel projects the judgment of Antiochus IV's Seleucid Empire forward to the final empire of the last-days beast of Revelation 13:1-2,

and the last days beast of Revelation 13:1-2 incorporates the lion, the leopard and the bear ("the rest of the beasts") that outlived the judgment of Antiochus IV and his Seleucid Empire.

I do not believe Daniel 7 is talking about the Roman Empire.

So I believe that the ten toes of the image in Daniel chapter 2 and ten kings of Daniel chapter 7 are (were) the same, and Daniel is projecting them (the ten kings), together with the little horn rising up among them, forward to the final kingdom of "The Antichrist" introduced in Revelation 13:1-2. It's a second fulfillment. Not the first.

I think you interpret Daniel's 4th beast as referring only to the beast of Revelation 13 instead of primarily to the Seleucid Empire of Antiochus IV and secondly and lastly to the beast of Revelation 13, and this is why you can't see how "the rest of the beasts" could be referring to the same lion, leopard and bear that outlived the judgment of Antiochus IV and his Seleucid Empire but will not outlive the judgment of the beast of Revelation 13.

Historically, the lion, leopard and bear way outlived the judgment of the 4th kingdom - and this is why the second fulfillment of the prophecy incorporates all three of those kingdoms (Revelation 11:1-2).

So I believe that they will therefore be judged with the beast of Revelation 13:1-2, as per Revelation 19:11-21. I do not believe Daniel 7:12 is telling us that the rest of the beasts refer to beasts not mentioned either in Daniel 7:3-6, or in Revelation 13:1-2.

The thrones (plural) seen as being thrown up in Daniel 7:9 could be the same as the thrones (plural) of Revelation 20:4, because as you (correctly, I believe) point out, the wording is the same and is found only in these two verses in the Bible:

"I watched, and that horn made war with the saints and overcame them, until the Ancient of Days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the Most High. And the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom. (Daniel 9:21-22).

"And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor his image, nor had received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." (Revelation 20:4).

It's also thrones (plural) being thrown up in Daniel 7:9.

So again, I believe that the saints in the first fulfillment referred to the Maccabees and those who fought with them, but the saints in the second and final fulfillment of the prophecy refer to the saints who follow Christ on white horses in Revelation 19:11-21.

The Great White Throne speaks of only ONE throne, whereas Daniel 7:9 and Revelation 20:4 both speaks of thrones (plural). I do not believe that those over whom the saints will reign with Christ a thousand years refers to "the rest of the beasts" of Daniel 7:12 because as per Revelation 19:14 and Revelation 17:14, the saints will be with Christ when they (the lion, leopard and bear) are judged by Christ with the beast of Revelation 23:1-2.

It's only because Daniel 7:10 mentions the books being opened that I question or consider that the Great White Throne (singular) of Revelation 20:11-15 may be referring to the same (Premillennial) judgment of the beast which incorporates "the rest of the beasts" (the lion, leopard and bear). But I could be wrong. So I'm still just speculating, though I don't believe I'm entirely wrong and I don't believe that you are entirely wrong either.

I don't see how you or anyone see it making sense that Daniel 7, from verse 7 through verse 27, is involving a time period prior to the time period verse 13 is involving? Like I already pointed out in another post, the coming of Christ, according to the NT, involves 3 phases. Currently we are in the 2nd phase still awaiting the 3rd phase.

The 3 phases

1) when He was initially bodily born

2) When He ascended bodily back to heaven

3) When He bodily returns in the end of this age

Currently we are in phase 2. And IMO, maybe because I bring no bias to the text via what past Commentators have concluded, etc, I only see Daniel 7:7-27 involving the 2nd and 3rd stage. There couldn't possibly be anything in Daniel 7:7-27 involving the first phase, meaning from the time He was born until He ascended back to heaven, therefore, it should be equally true that nothing in Daniel 7:7-27 is involving a period of time prior to the first phase.

What I then ask myself, why would Daniel 7:7-27 focus on a time prior to the first phase, then skip the first phase altogether, then focus on the 2nd and 3rd phase? Since I don't see that being reasonable, I see it being more likely that Daniel 7:7-27 is only focusing on the 2nd and 3rd stage.

 

[Zao is life]

I don't see how you or anyone see it making sense that Daniel 7, from verse 7 through verse 27, is involving a time period prior to the time period verse 13 is involving? Like I already pointed out in another post, the coming of Christ, according to the NT, involves 3 phases. Currently we are in the 2nd phase still awaiting the 3rd phase.

The 3 phases

1) when He was initially bodily born

2) When He ascended bodily back to heaven

3) When He bodily returns in the end of this age

Currently we are in phase 2. And IMO, maybe because I bring no bias to the text via what past Commentators have concluded, etc, I only see Daniel 7:7-27 involving the 2nd and 3rd stage. There couldn't possibly be anything in Daniel 7:7-27 involving the first phase, meaning from the time He was born until He ascended back to heaven, therefore, it should be equally true that nothing in Daniel 7:7-27 is involving a period of time prior to the first phase.

What I then ask myself, why would Daniel 7:7-27 focus on a time prior to the first phase, then skip the first phase altogether, then focus on the 2nd and 3rd phase? Since I don't see that being reasonable, I see it being more likely that Daniel 7:7-27 is only focusing on the 2nd and 3rd stage.

Daniel 7:26-27
"But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his rulership, to cut off and to destroy until the end.
And the kingdom and rulership, and the greatness of the kingdom under all the heavens, shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom. And all kingdoms shall serve and obey Him."

Whose kingdom was being taken away, and who was being judged?

The following parts of Daniel's prophecy were fulfilled in the days of Antiochus IV Epiphanes, and will be fulfilled again:

Note: Antiochus IV Epiphanies was ousted by the Maccabees:

Daniel 7:26-27
26 "But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his rulership (done by the Maccabees), to cut off and to destroy until the end.

27 And the kingdom and rulership, and the greatness of the kingdom under all the heavens, shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom. (The kingdom of God in Judea was given to the saints of the Most High after Antiochus IV was ousted - but still not fulfilled in the way described below):

And all kingdoms shall serve and obey Him.

The scattering of the power of the holy people and only the wise understanding applied just as much to the faithful Jewish remnant during the days of Antiochus IV Epiphanes (the type) as it will (still future tense) to the faithful remnant in Christ (the antitype).

Partly fulfilled but not completely fulfilled in the time of Antiochus IV Epiphanes:

Daniel 12
1 And at that time Michael shall stand up, the great ruler who stands for the sons of your people (God helping the Maccabees).

And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation; until that time (indeed the time of Antiochus IV Epiphanes was such a time).

And at that time your people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book (the faithful Jewish remnant who were delivered from the hand of Antiochus IV Epiphanes).

The verse below is true of the time of Antiochus IV Epiphanes also:

3 And those who are wise shall shine as the brightness of the sky; and those who turn many to righteousness shall shine as the stars forever and ever.

There was an apostasy from the true faith on the part of many Jews during Antiochus IV's reign. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 tells us that there will be an apostasy during the days of the man of sin / son of perdition.

8 And I heard, but I did not understand. Then I said, O my lord, what shall be the end of these things?
9 And He said, Go, Daniel! For the words are closed up and sealed until the end-time.

10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried. But the wicked shall do wickedly. And none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand. (happened during the time of Antiochus IV Epiphanes also).

The things mentioned in the above verses will be fulfilled AGAIN when the Antichrist has risen from the abyss - but the verse below has never been fulfilled and is still to be fulfilled:

2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

It is prophesied of the "beast" of the Revelation that he will "open his mouth in blasphemy toward God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, and those dwelling in Heaven. And it was given to it to war with the saints and to overcome them." (Revelation 13:6-7). This is exactly what Antiochus IV also did in his day, in the latter days of Seleucid Hellenistic kingdom; and so his actions make him a type (forerunner) of both:

(A) The 8th king of the beast written about in Revelation Chapters 13 & 17; and
(B) The man of sin of 2 Thessalonians Chapter 2.

So I see in Daniel Chapter 7 Daniel's 4th beast projecting forward in time to the final kingdom, and vice-versa.

I realize yourself and many others don't see it.

 

[Timtofly]

You are premil as well, so this was an interesting statement for you to make. It doesn't concern you that people only rarely ever agree with you about anything?

All will figure it out when it happens. Why would God punish His redeemed for being wrong about the Day of the Lord?

Are amil going to have to sit in a corner for 1,000 years?

Will premills be upset that there will be no sinners in the Millennium?

People have heated disagreements because they don't like to be wrong.

Scriptures don't fight back when they are interpreted wrong.

 

[DavidPT]

Main parallels, or similar situations, seem to be the “assembling of armies” and “punishment in the LOF”

In revelation 19 the beast assembled armies. In revelation 20, the dragon assembles armies.

In revelation 19 the beast is thrown in the lake of fire. In revelation 20 the dragon is thrown in the lake of fire.

It could be inferred that this occurs to both entities once they come out of the abyss.

It's not a question of, do both entities come out of the abyss followed by their demise soon after, it's a question of, do both entities come out of the abyss at the same time or in the same era of time? Obviously, we all agree that the beast comes out of the abyss in this present earth age. But does satan also come out of the abyss during this same present earth age? If he does, this indicates there are obviously parallels between what you brought up. By parallels I'm basically meaning different accounts that are involving the same events.

Some might argue, if Premil is true and that the beast is in the LOF when satan is bound, who is it that satan uses to aid in deceiving the nations after the thousand years, the number of whom is as the sand of the sea? I might counter that with this. When satan initially fell, who was it that aided satan in deceiving other angels, the number whom also was as the sand of the sea, since the beast obviously wasn't around at that time? satan obviously initially did that all by himself, deceive countless angels in joining him in his rebellion. satan didn't need the beast back then, so why would he need the beast after the thousand years?

 

[Timtofly]

Ok, let's look closely at Rev 20:6 and see if agrees that the resurrected can die again.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ and shall reign with him a thousand years.

To understand the passage, let's look at three sub-texts that make up the text.

• Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: hopefully, you agree that these are those that lived in this age.
• On such the second death hath no power: This is a direct reference to those (as just mentioned) that rose in the first resurrection. And the second death (meaning that of the soul in the lake of fire and brimstone) has no power over them.
• But they shall be priests of God and of Christ and shall reign with him a thousand years. They will reign with Christ during the millennium.

In case I missed something, would you care to tell us where the passage says they may die a second death? Do you really understand that the second death in this context is not the death of the flesh but of the soul in hellfire?

Keras and Amil don't see people literally living for a thousand years. They are stuck in current reality, where sin and death abound.

The second death is one without a resurrection, period.

The point about being blessed is that they have a resurrection.

That is why premill have contradictory issues. There is no second resurrection implied. There is an ability after the 1,000 years for those in sheol (the rest of the dead) to have a first resurrection, but it is not a given that all will accept that resurrection.

Go back to the very basic point of a physical resurrection. All those who experience a physical death, look forward to that physical resurrection as part of their faith in God, and the trust placed in the Atonement. A physical resurrection is just as much a faith issue as the second birth. One assumes that accepting God's gift will result in a spiritual birth and a physical resurrection. That is the basics of Salvation. Both a spiritual and physical change. Many conflate the two without making a distinction between the spiritual and physical. They claim the spiritual birth is the same as the physical resurrection, and only symbolic, not a reality until that future singular resurrection.

Why do people seem to toss out the basic principle that there is separate distinction between a spiritual birth and a physical resurrection? They are not the same experience.

Back to those beheaded. When they decide to chop off their head to avoid the mark, that is in anticipation of a physical resurrection, because being beheaded is a physical act. It is still an act of faith, they will be resurrected. While at the same time the act is accepting the second birth the spiritual part of becoming a son of God. These beheaded cannot represent what we call the church, nor is the church part of this resurrection in Revelation 20:4. That is why Amil are wrong when they hijack the point John is giving us, when they call these resurrected beheaded people just the resurrection of Jesus, and these beheaded represent the church over the past 2 millennia. No one currently commits suicide as the means of a Second Birth, and a hope of a physical resurrection. It is not even symbolic of crucifying the flesh daily. That is not a literal act claiming a physical resurrection every day. This physical resurrection of those beheaded is a one time event, with the sole purpose of reigning on earth with Christ for a literal 1,000 years with a defined beginning and a defined literal end.

It is not a chronological resurrection with a second follow up after the 1,000 years.

Only the beheaded stand as souls, are judged, and given life, the first resurrection. They stand before thrones. The rest of the dead stand before one throne, the GWT of God. Some may be granted eternal life at the GWT. That would be their first resurrection, that gives them the power to escape the second death in the LOF.

Now Karaz thinks, like Amil think that all the dead from the last 6,000 years even the church are resurrected at the same time, and only one resurrection and only one judgment. That would be the GWT event.

Karaz thinks that, based on the Lamb's book of life being present. However, the Lamb's book of life was present before the Seals, and the Sealed church already present in Paradise even before the Seals were all opened.

The church already Sealed and the 144k sealed already proves the church is not judged at the GWT. In fact they are already blessed because the Second Coming is when the church is glorified. That means the church already experienced the first resurrection, and already blessed, even before the 7th Seal is opened. They can never be removed from the Lamb's book of life.

The Lamb's book of life is opened at the GWT, so God can remove the names of the rest of the dead who are still in sheol. These dead had to wait until sheol is emptied out, not those in Christ. It is those in sheol waiting to give an account of their life, not the church. The church was judged at the Cross. The church only is judged for rewards, not that the church, after being glorified, is now in danger of being removed from the Lamb's book of life. Being removed from the Lamb's book of life, is the only reason the dead stand at the GWT. This judgment is to determine if they are ressurected to eternal life or cast into the second death, the LOF. The church already knows their eternal destination. That is part of the basics of Salvation. The church does not have to wait for the GWT to figure that out.

 

[Timtofly]

They ignore passages that teach that Christ reigns now, that all unbelievers will be killed when He returns, that there will be one general resurrection day and one judgment day. They twist all of the straightforward scriptures which teach those things in favor of a literal interpretation of a passage within the most highly symbolic book in all of scripture. Now, THAT is absurd.

No we don't.

That is a general false misrepresentation of premil.

Calling Revelation the most highly symbolic book, is a misleading hyperbole and an emotional appeal to logic.

If one cannot find a literal interpretation in Scripture, they tend to make up their own facts and call that literal, instead of God’s Word.

Amil have a lot of "literal" facts that are in direct violation of what is actually written. Then they call those facts an air tight argument. The problem is these facts contradict Scripture, or plainly not found in Scripture any where. But the whole point of it being too symbolic is that now amil can supply their imagination as the "facts" of Scripture, instead of Scripture providing the facts.

One obvious example is recapitulation, or that Revelation 20 is parallel with other chapters instead of chronological.

That is not specified, implied, nor even apparent. That is a private interpretation so Amil can "make sense".

Since John sees Satan bound after the events of Revelation 19 that is chronological. There does not even have to be the phrase "After these things". Revelation 20 is still the continuation of the theme of Revelation 19.

Revelation 19 is after the things seen in Revelation 17 and 18. Revelation 20 does not necessarily have to be after Revelation 17 and 18. Revelation 20 could be after Revelation 11, and still make sense.

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season."

 

[Timtofly]

You're not making any sense. If the second death has no power over them, then how can they suffer the second death? They can't because it doesn't have any power over them. So, to conclude that they can die again completely contradicts the fact that the second death has no power over them. The concept that some people will be resurrected with mortal bodies is also not something that is taught anywhere in scripture, but that doesn't seem to concern you for some reason.

Obviously these are not resurrected into Adam's dead corruptible flesh. They are ressurected into God's permanent incorruptible physical bodies.

2 Corinthians 5:1.

They do live and reign on earth, because they are the camp of the saints. That is who Revelation 20 is talking about living and reigning with Christ is the camp of the saints.

No where does it claim they are given white robes, nor glorified. They don't put on immortality as Paul put it. They only put on incorruption, a physical body.

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

Their adamic flesh was destroyed when they chopped their heads off. They don't get that corruption back or they would have to die again and face the second death. The point of having a permanent incorruptible physical bodies is that they cannot live in sin and disobey God with their corrupt physical bodies. That is the blessing of the first resurrection, a permanent incorruptible physical body that is not subject to sin nor death.

 

[Timtofly]

Main parallels, or similar situations, seem to be the “assembling of armies” and “punishment in the LOF”

In revelation 19 the beast assembled armies. In revelation 20, the dragon assembles armies.

In revelation 19 the beast is thrown in the lake of fire. In revelation 20 the dragon is thrown in the lake of fire.

It could be inferred that this occurs to both entities once they come out of the abyss.

Satan really does not assembly an army. Satan deceieves people into thinking they need to do battle. There is a difference. Also in Revelation 16, there are 3 frogs from all 3 "leaders".

The point is that God gathers all who is left on earth to Armageddon, not the beast.

"And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates"

This is God's wrath poured out that brings all humanity to Armageddon.

"The whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Behold, I (God) come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he (God) gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon."

This is the result of the 6th vial to bring all to Armageddon.

The 3 spirits coming out of those 3 is still an act of God gathering all to Armageddon. No one is left alive on the earth, as any who are left are all brought by God to Armageddon.

Your comparison falls apart, because Armageddon is the result of God pouring out the 6th vial. In Revelation 20, Satan is allowed to deceive humanity. Those who chose to listen to this deception have to march across the earth. God does not transport them as implied in the 6th vial.

"And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle."

But they have to do the work which implies a literal choice they make, not Satan nor God.

"And they went up on the breadth of the earth."

They had to cross the earth to get to the camp of the saints. God was not judging them, forcing them to come for battle like in the 6th vial. The judgment was when they were assembled, fire came down from heaven and consumed them all.

No one has a choice to escape Armageddon. Those who chose Satan over God, a choice, even if deceieved, will face the consequences of that choice.

 

[Trivalee]

Keras and Amil don't see people literally living for a thousand years. They are stuck in current reality, where sin and death abound.

The second death is one without a resurrection, period.

The point about being blessed is that they have a resurrection.

That is why premill have contradictory issues. There is no second resurrection implied. There is an ability after the 1,000 years for those in sheol (the rest of the dead) to have a first resurrection, but it is not a given that all will accept that resurrection.

Go back to the very basic point of a physical resurrection. All those who experience a physical death, look forward to that physical resurrection as part of their faith in God, and the trust placed in the Atonement. A physical resurrection is just as much a faith issue as the second birth. One assumes that accepting God's gift will result in a spiritual birth and a physical resurrection. That is the basics of Salvation. Both a spiritual and physical change. Many conflate the two without making a distinction between the spiritual and physical. They claim the spiritual birth is the same as the physical resurrection, and only symbolic, not a reality until that future singular resurrection.

Why do people seem to toss out the basic principle that there is separate distinction between a spiritual birth and a physical resurrection? They are not the same experience.

Back to those beheaded. When they decide to chop off their head to avoid the mark, that is in anticipation of a physical resurrection, because being beheaded is a physical act. It is still an act of faith, they will be resurrected. While at the same time the act is accepting the second birth the spiritual part of becoming a son of God. These beheaded cannot represent what we call the church, nor is the church part of this resurrection in Revelation 20:4. That is why Amil are wrong when they hijack the point John is giving us, when they call these resurrected beheaded people just the resurrection of Jesus, and these beheaded represent the church over the past 2 millennia. No one currently commits suicide as the means of a Second Birth, and a hope of a physical resurrection. It is not even symbolic of crucifying the flesh daily. That is not a literal act claiming a physical resurrection every day. This physical resurrection of those beheaded is a one time event, with the sole purpose of reigning on earth with Christ for a literal 1,000 years with a defined beginning and a defined literal end.

It is not a chronological resurrection with a second follow up after the 1,000 years.

Only the beheaded stand as souls, are judged, and given life, the first resurrection. They stand before thrones. The rest of the dead stand before one throne, the GWT of God. Some may be granted eternal life at the GWT. That would be their first resurrection, that gives them the power to escape the second death in the LOF.

Now Karaz thinks, like Amil think that all the dead from the last 6,000 years even the church are resurrected at the same time, and only one resurrection and only one judgment. That would be the GWT event.

Karaz thinks that, based on the Lamb's book of life being present. However, the Lamb's book of life was present before the Seals, and the Sealed church already present in Paradise even before the Seals were all opened.

The church already Sealed and the 144k sealed already proves the church is not judged at the GWT. In fact they are already blessed because the Second Coming is when the church is glorified. That means the church already experienced the first resurrection, and already blessed, even before the 7th Seal is opened. They can never be removed from the Lamb's book of life.

The Lamb's book of life is opened at the GWT, so God can remove the names of the rest of the dead who are still in sheol. These dead had to wait until sheol is emptied out, not those in Christ. It is those in sheol waiting to give an account of their life, not the church. The church was judged at the Cross. The church only is judged for rewards, not that the church, after being glorified, is now in danger of being removed from the Lamb's book of life. Being removed from the Lamb's book of life, is the only reason the dead stand at the GWT. This judgment is to determine if they are ressurected to eternal life or cast into the second death, the LOF. The church already knows their eternal destination. That is part of the basics of Salvation. The church does not have to wait for the GWT to figure that out.

Keraz's has a skewed doctrine and sadly impervious to correction.

 

[Timtofly]

And this tends to be one of the biggest problems with Premil. Christ is in heaven until his enemies have been defeated, the last one being death, according to Hebrews and 1 Corinthians 15.


Hebrews 10:13-13 12But when Christb had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet.

1 Corinthians 15:25-26 25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

IF revelation 19-20 is to be understood as one big chronological and literal vision, where is death finally destroyed?

Well, according to chapter 20, around the time of the GWTJ.

Revelation 20:14 14Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire.

So this creates a problem, if Christ is in heaven until his enemies are destroyed, the last one being death, how can Christ be on earth destroying the beast, and reigning for 1,000 years prior to the destruction of death?

Nope, not that simple.

The Second Coming brings Christ the King to earth, then cometh the end. The end is still after the 1,000 year reign which is part of ruling until all enemies are defeated.

Jesus can still be on earth, when Satan is loosed from the pit, because no where after the Second Coming does it demand Jesus returns to heaven.

There has been almost 2,000 years between Christ the firstfruits and the Second Coming. There will be over 1,000 years between the Second Coming and the end.

That is the order Paul gave.

First the OT redeemed were presented alive to God, at the time of the Cross and Ressurection.

Secondly, the whole church both OT and NT are glorified and presented to God, at the Second Coming.

The third presentation is the billions from the Millennial reign, and all of creation, at the GWT event.

Then and only then will the GWT event occur as written in Revelation 20:11.

John's symbolism of heaven and earth fleeing away is the same event as Paul's:

"And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

John cannot see the old heaven and earth because God is all in all. The only thing remaining is God and the LOF, and those cast into the LOF.

What John does not describe is when the LOF starts and how it starts. It is there at Armageddon. But it could be there as early as the 6th Seal when 2 Peter 3 kicks in and every thing is being burned up. That could be the trigger event of the LOF. The goats could be cast into the LOF, but this LOF is seperate from creation, and all things that are being subjected. Because even death is thrown into the LOF. But death is defeated when those coming against the camp of the saints are burned up. That is the last time people are placed in death. But even death is cast into the LOF at the same time creation is presented to God.

 

[Timtofly]

. And the saints disagree. Hopefully the saints won't be arguing with one another about what should be done in this and that case when they are seated on thrones!

Can you imagine the thrones as the split Supreme Court of the US, with premils and amils deciding what is going to happen to those beheaded in Revelation 20:4?

Premills are all in favor of letting them reign with Christ for 1,000 years. Amils are against the 1,000 year reign because the last 2,000 years were long and boring, and they ask the premils, "you want another 1,000 year reign, extension?".

There is one preterist with the resulting vote, to break the tie, who claims it was all over any way, 2,000 years ago. Those beheaded don't even get to be born.

 

[Timtofly]

Right, that’s my point. Modern day Premil, contrary to the NT apostles, teaches Christ descends from heaven prior to his enemies being made a footstool, specifically prior to the destruction of death. Modern day premil has christ descending 1000 years plus a little season prior to the destruction of death and removal of heavens and earth.

Paul teaches the last enemy is defeated at the coming of Christ when the dead are raised (1 Corinthians 15). This is contrary to what premil teaches

Peter teaches that removal of the heavens and earth occur at the coming of Christ (2 Peter 3). This is contrary to what modern premil teaches.

It’s hard to follow premil, because its interpretation of a highly symbolic book doesn’t add up with what the apostles taught.

That’s the main problem. Modern day premils chronology of revelation 19-20 is contrary to any chronology taught by the apostles in epistles.

And this interpretation is wrong, because Peter was not talking about Revelation 21. Peter was talking about the Second Coming is the same as the Flood. Jesus did not hand back creation at the Flood and declare it was subjected, and there was a totally different reality when Noah stepped off the ark. There was only a new heaven and earth when Noah stepped off the Ark, not new reality.

The same after the Second Coming when everything is destroyed by fire instead of water. There will be a new heaven and earth, but not the new reality of Revelation 21. Jesus is still reigning and bringing earth under subjection.

Many want to interpret Paul as saying the Second Coming is the end. But the end is still coming 1,000 years later.

And of course many will say that interpretation is wrong. But it certainly does not contradict Scripture. You all interpret Paul so that Paul contradicts John, and then you have to bring up excuses and justify the contradiction. There is no excuse in pointing out the 1,000 years between the Second Coming and the end. That is interpreting Paul with a clearer understanding from John in Revelation 20.

The excuse you all come up with is that Revelation is too symbolic and no one can understand it.

 

[claninja]

It's not a question of, do both entities come out of the abyss followed by their demise soon after, it's a question of, do both entities come out of the abyss at the same time or in the same era of time? Obviously, we all agree that the beast comes out of the abyss in this present earth age. But does satan also come out of the abyss during this same present earth age? If he does, this indicates there are obviously parallels between what you brought up. By parallels I'm basically meaning different accounts that are involving the same events.

Some might argue, if Premil is true and that the beast is in the LOF when satan is bound, who is it that satan uses to aid in deceiving the nations after the thousand years, the number of whom is as the sand of the sea? I might counter that with this. When satan initially fell, who was it that aided satan in deceiving other angels, the number whom also was as the sand of the sea, since the beast obviously wasn't around at that time? satan obviously initially did that all by himself, deceive countless angels in joining him in his rebellion. satan didn't need the beast back then, so why would he need the beast after the thousand years?

I was merely Just pointing out the the similar parallels between the 2 chapters.

1.) From a literal reading of the text, before any interpretation, it appears possible that Satan is thrown into the lake of fire “after” the beast and false prophet, due to revelation 20:10.

2.) As far as the beast and/or Satan being in the abyss,

The beast appears to be in the abyss in John’s day, no?

Revelation 17:8 8The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction.

However, there is no specific indication, IN REVELATION, that Satan was in the abyss in John’s day. Satan was making war on the saints following his casting out of heaven at the ascension of Christ according to revelation 12.

 

[Timtofly]

The beast appears to be in the abyss in John’s day, no?

Revelation 17:8 8The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction.

However, there is no specific indication, IN REVELATION, that Satan was in the abyss in John’s day. Satan was making war on the saints following his casting out of heaven at the ascension of Christ according to revelation 12.

John is not writing from a perspective that anything happened in the first century, after chapter 4.

"After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter."

All was future at this point. The only exception would be the birth of the man child in chapter 12. That was not a future event. Chapter 12 is explaining the 7th Trumpet events, not the entire past history up until the 7th Trumpet.

"The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction."

This is talking about how Satan has freedom of movement, not some chronological stamp. John further clarifies the working of Satan with this beast metaphor in conjunction with earthly kingdoms. It is not a kingdom that was, is not, yet will be again.

"And the beast that was, and is not, even he (Satan) is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition."

The 8th kingdom is the one Satan and the FP set up. While Satan was, is not, and will be working behind the scenes in all earthly kingdoms, he was part of the 7, by placing thoughts into these kingdoms.

You have to remember that at the time of the Reformation the 5th Kingdom (the 10 toes of iron and clay) was severely broken up by the 2nd wave of the Gospel going out around the world again. The stone cut out was in part from persecution and causing the church to be uprooted and go to places it had not gone as it had grown stagnet and apostate.

But there has been a silent 6th and 7th kingdom that was not as close to Satan as the rest of them.

My opinion would be we are in the 6th Kingdom. At the Second Coming Jesus sets up the 7th Kingdom. And it is the short space of the GT. This kingdom is during the Trumpets and Thunders. While Satan is actively at work against this kingdom it is still a work in progress, until victory is declared at the 7th Trumpet.

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

However we have this foreboding of an 8th kingdom, that which literally, has Satan as the King, sitting on the throne of the 7th kingdom. That is why Satan is considered as was, the first 5 kingdoms, is not, not really a part of the 6th and 7th kingdom, but comes back and is allowed the 8th kingdom as his own.

Satan has never been placed in chains under house arrest. Satan still has access to heaven to accuse the brethren day and night. Coming and going in and out of the pit or abyss, is not indicative of being bound there. It just means Satan is free to come and go from earth to heaven and into the pit at will.

 

[keras]

Keras and Amil don't see people literally living for a thousand years

Be nice if people actually read what I write.
My belief, as proved by Isaiah 65:20, is that only mortal people will be in the Millennium. Jesus will be present, as the only immortal being.
Immortality is only given to those whose names are found in the Book of Life. To be opened at the GWT Judgment; after the Millennium.

Keraz's has a skewed doctrine and sadly impervious to correction.

I am 'impervious' to false teachings.
The theory of the Church going to live in heaven, is a Satanic lie and will never happen.

BTW; There are no parallels between Rev 19:17-21 - which prophesies the destruction of the armies of the 'beast' by Jesus, at Armageddon, and Rev 20:7-10, where God cremates Satan's army attacking Jerusalem.

 

[Trivalee]

Be nice if people actually read what I write.
My belief, as proved by Isaiah 65:20, is that only mortal people will be in the Millennium. Jesus will be present, as the only immortal being.
Immortality is only given to those whose names are found in the Book of Life. To be opened at the GWT Judgment; after the Millennium.

I am 'impervious' to false teachings.
The theory of the Church going to live in heaven, is a Satanic lie and will never happen.

BTW; There are no parallels between Rev 19:17-21 - which prophesies the destruction of the armies of the 'beast' by Jesus, at Armageddon, and Rev 20:7-10, where God cremates Satan's army attacking Jerusalem.

The church will receive immortality at the resurrection and rule with Christ as immortals during the millennium. It is wrong to claim that immortality will be given only at the GWTJ.

 

[keras]

The church will receive immortality at the resurrection and rule with Christ as immortals during the millennium. It is wrong to claim that immortality will be given only at the GWTJ.

Nowhere in the Bible is this pretentious and impossible theory said to happen.
The ONLY people raised when Jesus Returns, will be the martyrs killed during the 42 month time of world Satanic control. They will be raised back to mortality, as they may die again, Rev 20:4-6

Immortality cannot happen until the final, Judgment and the Book of Life is opened. Revelation 20:11-15

 

[DavidPT]

Immortality cannot happen until the final, Judgment and the Book of Life is opened. Revelation 20:11-15

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


More than likely the book involving verse 1 is meaning the book of life, unless you have a better solution as to what this book is. No one that I know of would argue that verse 1 and 2 are meaning a thousand years and a little season after Christ has bodily returned. Therefore, assuming the book in verse 1 is meaning the book of life, this pretty much contradicts everything you are arguing unless you want to maybe switch to Amil and insist the great throne judgment is meaning when Christ returns, not a thousand years later instead. Maybe that way what you are proposing can maybe work, I don't know. It certainly can't work with Premil. I'm guessing that not one single person on the planet, past or present, agrees with your interpretation involving this. And yet, in spite of that, you want us to believe that you are the only person on the planet, past and present, that is understanding this correctly, but everyone else, they have it wrong.

Assuming the book in verse 1 is involving the book of life, in order to be found written in the book, it requires that the book has to be opened first, and that you insist that only happens at the great white throne judgment a thousand years and a little season after Christ has returned. And that you insist when the book of life is opened this is when immortality is granted. Once again then, assuming the book in verse 1 is meaning the book of life, it obviously is opened in order to reveal the names written therein, and that this is meaning when the resurrection involving verse 2 is meaning. And that it is meaning at the end of this unequaled trouble verse 1 is involving. But let's just ignore any of that and keep insisting you are the only one on the planet, past and present, who is interpreting correctly when immortality is initially granted.

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life(Daniel 12:2)

BTW, maybe you can also explain while you are at it, how anyone can awake to everlasting life without it involving immortality.

 

[keras]

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life(Daniel 12:2)

I stand by the belief that Daniel 12:1-3 is a prophecy about the Great White Throne Judgment, that takes place at the end of the Millennium.
Verse 3, which you avoided, makes it clear: it ends with Eternity. .

In verse 1, And at that time...... has to mean at the end of human history, or we have a Bible anomaly. A contradiction with Revelation 20:11-15. Not possible. It is all located correctly by the 3rd verse.

As for me being the only one on the planet with the beliefs I hold; maybe I am.
Remember that Jesus said; Father I thank You for hiding these things, [the Prophesies] from the wise and learned people....... Matthew 11:25a
The educated cannot know and the majority of Church members don't want to know. Thats how God wants it to be.

But a few will understand; Daniel 12:10, Matthew 11:25b, and I as an uneducated person, [finished school at age 15] with the help of the holy Spirit, can see the coherent and logical sequence of end time events. A staged process, culminating in the final judgment and then Eternity.

All as Written in our Bible and written out in more than 800 short articles by me, to help people to know what the Lord has planned for our future.

 

[Zao is life]

It doesn't concern you that people only rarely ever agree with you about anything?

It would concern me that the above sounds like the kind of statement the Pharisees would have made to Jesus and later, to His apostles. But you weren't speaking to me. Just saying.