Are there really any parallels between Revelation 20:7-10 and Revelation 19?

[DavidPT]

The following is based on my observations, thus I'm not saying nor implying that other views are necessarily seeing it this way.


Let's look at Revelation 19 first by starting with these verses.

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


I would think, if Revelation 19 is involving the 2nd coming like a lot of us tend to believe, verse 11 is meaning when it initially begins. Which means that verse 19 can't even get fulfilled until the 2nd coming has happened first. Regardless what it might look like when that is being fulfilled, that verse has the beast and his armies gathered together to make war with Christ and His army.

One thing we know, or should know if we don't, verse 19 is meaning after the 42 month reign of the beast. We know that because of what Revelation 13:7 records, that the saints are being overcome by the beast during it's 42 month reign. And that verse 19 in Revelation 19 is not involving any saints being overcome by the beast at the time. Therefore, in this age prior to the 2nd coming, meaning during it's 42 month reign, the beast wages war against the saints and overcomes them. Then at the end of this age once the 2nd coming has occurred, the beast and it's armies wage yet another war, this time against Christ and His army. Except this time it is the beast and it's armies that are overcome, and not any of the saints instead.


OP continued in next post.

 

[DavidPT]

The OP continued.

Revelation 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.


This has to be meaning Revelation 19:19, and that this is not meaning Revelation 13:7.

Now that we have some of that out of the way, there is now the matter of the army seen coming with Christ in Revelation 19. Revelation 17:14 indicates, in regard to this army, they are called, and chosen, and faithful.


Let's focus on the word 'chosen'. It is the Greek word 'eklektos'

eklektos
ek-lek-tos'
from eklegomai - eklegomai 1586; select; by implication, favorite:--chosen, elect.


In Matthew 24, for example, this same Greek word is used in the following verses. Then take note what the contexts are involving per those verses.

Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's(eklektos) sake those days shall be shortened.

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect(eklektos) .

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect(eklektos) from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

A lot of us, except for Preterists and Pretribbers, take verse 31 to be involving the post tribulation rapture of the church and the rising of the dead in Christ. This verse only mentions heaven, though. If we factor in it's parallel account, we then see it also involves the earth, thus involving those that are still alive and remain when the 2nd coming occurs.

Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

And if we compare to 1 Thessalonians 4, this part---shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth---appears to be involving this part---Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds(1 Thessalonians 4:17)

While this part---and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, to the uttermost part of heaven---appears to be involving this part---even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him(1 Thessalonians 4:14)--For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first(1 Thessalonians 4:16)


Which should mean in Revelation 19, that the army with Christ, they are already in immortal bodies before verse 19 is being fulfilled. Which then also means there are no saints in mortal bodies still on the earth as of verse 19. Which then means, as of verse 19, immortal armies vs mortal armies, the fact Christ's army would be immortal, the beast's armies would be mortal.


OP continued in next post.

 

[DavidPT]

The OP continued.


Which now brings us to Revelation 20:7-10.

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


The first thing to take note of, this account is not involving saints descending from the sky gathering to war with those below on the earth. This account has saints on the earth at the time, not up in the sky, and that they are being surrounded by the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

After all, does not verse 9 state the following---And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city? How does one do that, in any sense, if none of the camp of the saints are even on the earth at the time, that they are instead descending with Christ from the sky? This assuming there are parallels between Revelation 20:7-10 and Revelation 19. Apparently then, there are no parallels since one account would be contradicting another account if there are. One account can't be depicting saints descending from the sky, and the other account depicting saints still being on the earth, the fact they are being surrounded on the earth, and then we concluding these are parallel events.

It doesn't even matter, that in Revelation 20:7-10, that this might not even be meaning in a literal sense, that one location on the earth is literally being invaded by perhaps billions of ppl. What matters, one account depicts the saints descending from the sky, thus the saints are no longer still on the earth, and that the other account is depicting saints still being on the earth at the time, the fact it is on the earth where they are being surrounded. One can't surround someone on the earth if they are not even on the earth at the time, but are instead descending from the sky.

OP continued in next post.

 

[DavidPT]

The OP continued, thus the end of the OP now. Finally. LOL


Then there is verse 9 to consider---and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. If there is a parallel in Revelation 19, this should mean, that not only do the armies with the beast get devoured, so does the beast. Yet look what Revelation 19:20 records.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.


Does that sound like the beast and fp got devoured by fire from God out of heaven if they are seen being taken, then cast alive into the LOF?

Then there is verse 10 to consider---And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone. If there is a parallel in Revelation 19, the fact the LOF is in view in Revelation 19, why then is a super major event, such as satan being cast into the LOF, not even mentioned one single time in Revelation 19? Assuming satan is cast into the LOF during the events involving Revelation 19, John gives the impression that only the casting in of the beast and fp into the LOF is newsworthy at the time, that it is a more major event than the casting in of satan into the LOF is, the fact he neglected to mention it in Revelation 19. As if it makes sense, and that it would not be dishonest on John's part, that if he did see satan getting cast into the LOF when the beast and fp get cast in, that he refuses to acknowledge he saw this event as well.

I am then left to conclude, that based on everything I have submitted thus far, there couldn't possibly be any parallels between Revelation 20:7-10 and Revelation 19.

 

[eleos1954]

The following is based on my observations, thus I'm not saying nor implying that other views are necessarily seeing it this way.


Let's look at Revelation 19 first by starting with these verses.

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


I would think, if Revelation 19 is involving the 2nd coming like a lot of us tend to believe, verse 11 is meaning when it initially begins. Which means that verse 19 can't even get fulfilled until the 2nd coming has happened first. Regardless what it might look like when that is being fulfilled, that verse has the beast and his armies gathered together to make war with Christ and His army.

One thing we know, or should know if we don't, verse 19 is meaning after the 42 month reign of the beast. We know that because of what Revelation 13:7 records, that the saints are being overcome by the beast during it's 42 month reign. And that verse 19 in Revelation 19 is not involving any saints being overcome by the beast at the time. Therefore, in this age prior to the 2nd coming, meaning during it's 42 month reign, the beast wages war against the saints and overcomes them. Then at the end of this age once the 2nd coming has occurred, the beast and it's armies wage yet another war, this time against Christ and His army. Except this time it is the beast and it's armies that are overcome, and not any of the saints instead.


OP continued in next post.

that verse has the beast and his armies gathered together to make war with Christ and His army.

sort of correct .... (beast & his armies are gathered - resurrection of the wicked dead) God himself destroys those of the lost (2nd resurrection of the condemned) fire comes down from heaven from God ..... he don't need a army ..... perfectly capable of doing this himself.

The 42 month reign already happened ....

The papacy reigned for 42 prophetic months, which equals 1,260 years, from A.D. 538-1798

This prophetic time period (using the day-year principle) began with the supremacy of the papacy, A.D. 538, and terminated in 1798, the year that the pope was taken captive. At this time the papal power received its deadly wound, and the prediction was fulfilled.

Might revisit the reformers teachings .... if you are a protestant.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

David, you need to learn to be more succinct. You took way too long to make your point and it's hard to follow when it takes so long. It also makes people lose interest when you take so long to get to the point.

Anyway, since we were already discussing this topic in another thread, I have some idea of what you're trying to get at here (and only because of that), but it's still a bit confusing in a sense. So, we need some clarification here.

Are you claiming that the gathering for battle referenced in Revelation 19 doesn't even begin until after Jesus descends from heaven? If so, how are you coming to that conclusion? How long do you think it will take for Jesus to descend from heaven to the earth's atmosphere, anyway? You think they will see Him as He's descending and will have time to gather to try to fight Him? If so, how does that make any sense?

Do you not see the following as referring to the same gathering for battle:

Revelation 16:12 The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East. 13 Then I saw three impure spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty. 15 “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.” 16 Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

If you see this as being the same as the battle referenced in Revelation 19, then do you think what is described here doesn't occur until Jesus starts descending from heaven? Or does this gathering for battle start occurring before His return? I personally would see this passage as being parallel to Revelation 20:7-9. As I said in the other thread, I would see Revelation 19:11-21 as only being parallel to Revelation 20:9 as far as it describing when He descends from heaven which is when His wrath actually comes down rather than describing the time period leading up to that.

 

[DavidPT]

Are you claiming that the gathering for battle referenced in Revelation 19 doesn't even begin until after Jesus descends from heaven?

Isn't that what Revelation 19:19 seems to suggest? In order for the beast and fp to be taken, and in order for those in verse 21 to be slain, does not that require that Christ has to have bodily returned at that point?

Eric, let's start with the following two passages and compare how I'm reasoning this vs how you are reasoning this. The following is how I'm reasoning it.

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Revelation 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Both accounts have the following in common---gathered together to make war---to gather them together to battle

Except in Revelation 19 all saints are descending with Christ from the sky, while in Revelation 20 it depicts no such thing. If saints are descending with Christ from the sky above in Revelation 19, how can these saints not be literally immortal at this point? How can mortal saints be descending from the sky? How could there still be any mortal saints on the earth in light of the following?

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

After that we then see this.

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

His army in verse 19, meaning Christ's army, why would it not be meaning the same armies as per verse 14? And if it is, the fact they are descending with Him from the sky, how can that not mean 1 Thessalanians 4:17-20 has been fulfilled at this point, thus all saints are now in immortal bodies? Which means when Revelation 19:19 is being fulfilled, regardless what that might look like, since it obviously isn't involving a battle involving literal horses, etc, the armies with Christ, they are in immortal bodies at this point. And the armies with the beast, they are in mortal bodies. Thus, immortals vs mortals.

Yet you argue, in Revelation 20 it is mortal saints vs the mortal lost, and not immortal saints vs the mortal lost. Which then has me scratching my head wondering how you can be seeing parallels here when the account involving Revelation 19 involves a battle between immortals and mortals, and that you are insisting that the battle involving Revelation 20:7-9 involves a battle between mortals vs mortals?

How do you reason those same two passages, Revelation 19:19 and Revelation 19:20:8-9? As to Revelation 19:19 in particular, in light of Revelation 19:11, Revelation 19:14, and 1 Thessalonians 4:17-20?

Edited to add:

In the event it's not clear to some interpreters(which may or may not include you in this case) who the armies are referring to in Revelation 19:14, the folowing should make it crystal clear. Thus why, in my mind, Revelation 19 is involving immortal saints vs mortal enemies, and that there are no mortal saints still on the earth when Revelation 19:19 is being fulfilled. That is because the resurrection of the saved, and the rapture of the church, these events precede Revelation 19:19. But not meaning a Pretrib rapture, though. Meaning a Post trib rapture.



Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white : for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints

Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies , gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army

Revelation 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful

 

[keras]

Revelation 20:9 as far as it describing when He descends from heaven which is when His wrath actually comes down rather than describing the time period leading up to that.

Your error is in thinking that the wrath of God happens when Jesus Returns. Revelation 15:1, is perfectly clear that all the wrath of God and Jesus is over before Jesus Returns. The destruction of the attacking armies at that time, is just a disposal operation, paralleled by how the Lord disposed of the 185.000 Assyrian army in Hezikiah's time.

Revelation 20 it is mortal saints vs the mortal lost, and not immortal saints vs the mortal lost. Which then has me scratching my head wondering how you can be seeing parallels here when the account involving Revelation 19 involves a battle between immortals and mortals, and that you are insisting that the battle involving Revelation 20:7-9 involves a battle between mortals vs mortals?

Your error is to think anyone receives immortality before the Great White Throne Judgement and Eternity. Not possible or Biblical.

 

[DavidPT]

Your error is to think anyone receives immortality before the Great White Throne Judgement and Eternity. Not possible or Biblical.

Does this mean that you agree with Amils that the first resurrection per Revelation 20:4-6., this is not involving the bodily resurrection of saints? The fact all of these that have part in the first resurrection reign with Christ a thousand years, tells us that none of these die during the thousand years since that would contradict living and reigning with Christ a thousand years.

Therefore, we at least know that anyone who has part in the first resurrection they remain alive during the entire thousand years. How then do you propose they die in order to be present at the great white throne judgment? That judgment involves the dead that have been raised back to life.

After the thousand years the only death Revelation 20 records is those coming against the camp of the saints and the holy city, that they are devoured by fire from God out of heaven. It is not reasonable that anyone who has part in the first resurrection, that they too are devoured by fire from God out of heaven.

And since they can't die during the thousand years nor after it, for you to then insist they don't put on immortality until the time of the great white throne judgment, makes zero sense. They are not even going to be at the great white throne judgment being judged to begin with. One reason is because they have already been judged at the sheep and goats judgment when Christ returns, and that this is not meaning the great white throne judgment after the thousand years. The other reason is because they have already put on bodily immortality at the last trump, and that the last trump is meaning when Christ returns in the end of this age.

You of course are going to continue to believe what you do, regardless. Which is your right to do so. But that still doesn't make you correct to insist that anyone who think saints put on bodily immortality at the 2nd coming, that they err in this regards. Some of us are never going to agree with you about this since it is obvious that the last trump is meaning before the great white throne judgment, regardless whether the great white throne judgment is meaning right after Christ has returned, or if it is meaning a thousand years and a little season after Christ returns. Either way the last trump comes first. Which means saints put on bodily immortality at that time, meaning at the last trump.

 

[DavidPT]

Do you not see the following as referring to the same gathering for battle:

Revelation 16:12 The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East. 13 Then I saw three impure spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty. 15 “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.” 16 Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

If you see this as being the same as the battle referenced in Revelation 19, then do you think what is described here doesn't occur until Jesus starts descending from heaven? Or does this gathering for battle start occurring before His return? I personally would see this passage as being parallel to Revelation 20:7-9. As I said in the other thread, I would see Revelation 19:11-21 as only being parallel to Revelation 20:9 as far as it describing when He descends from heaven which is when His wrath actually comes down rather than describing the time period leading up to that.

What we have to factor in here, according to Revelation 19:19, it is the beast and it's armies vs Christ and His army. And that Revelation 19:14 informs us that Christ's army is descending with Him from the sky. Which then means, somewhere between the 6th vial and 7th vial, or maybe during the 7th vial, the dead in Christ rise, and the rapture of the church takes place. Otherwise, how do we explain the armies in Revelation 19:14? These armies, though they might include angels, they obviously also include saved saints.

One way I explain these armies in verse 14, which is the same army with Christ in verse 19, is via 1 Thessalonians 4:17-20. Another way is such as how I did at the end of post #7.

Almost forgot, there is the following as well, which also explain the armies in Revelation 19:14, which is the same army in Revelation 19:19.

Zechariah 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all , and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Do not these passages clearly indicate, that when the Lord comes, His saints are with Him? And does not Revelation 19:14 indicate that when the Lord comes, His saints are with Him?

 

[Trivalee]

David, you need to learn to be more succinct. You took way too long to make your point and it's hard to follow when it takes so long. It also makes people lose interest when you take so long to get to the point.

Anyway, since we were already discussing this topic in another thread, I have some idea of what you're trying to get at here (and only because of that), but it's still a bit confusing in a sense. So, we need some clarification here.

Are you claiming that the gathering for battle referenced in Revelation 19 doesn't even begin until after Jesus descends from heaven? If so, how are you coming to that conclusion? How long do you think it will take for Jesus to descend from heaven to the earth's atmosphere, anyway? You think they will see Him as He's descending and will have time to gather to try to fight Him? If so, how does that make any sense?

Do you not see the following as referring to the same gathering for battle:

Revelation 16:12 The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East. 13 Then I saw three impure spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty. 15 “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.” 16 Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

If you see this as being the same as the battle referenced in Revelation 19, then do you think what is described here doesn't occur until Jesus starts descending from heaven? Or does this gathering for battle start occurring before His return? I personally would see this passage as being parallel to Revelation 20:7-9. As I said in the other thread, I would see Revelation 19:11-21 as only being parallel to Revelation 20:9 as far as it describing when He descends from heaven which is when His wrath actually comes down rather than describing the time period leading up to that.

Rev 16:12 expressly said that this army was deployed for Armageddon. As a Bible student, did the scriptures teach that Armageddon is before the Lord returns or after he has spent 1000 years on earth? Rev 20:7-9 occurs at the end of the millennium - we are told that Satan gathers these unbelievers to surround the camp of the saints after his release from prison. Now, here's the difference between Armageddon and Rev 20:7-9.

• Rev 16:13 And I saw three evil[c] spirits that looked like frogs leap from the mouths of the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet. The import here is that the battle being deployed occurred while the beast (AC) and the false prophet are still around.
• Rev 19:19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the world and their armies gathered together to fight against the one sitting on the horse and his army. 20 And the beast was captured and with him the false prophet who did mighty miracles on behalf of the beast—miracles that deceived all who had accepted the mark of the beast and who worshipped his statue. Both the beast and his false prophet were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

Rev 16:13 shows the dragon's army physically commanded by the beast deployed. Rev 19:19-20 shows their capitulation at Armageddon, with the AC+False Prophet subsequently cast into the lake of fire. They are out of the scene forever. And Satan gets locked up in the bottomless pit for 1000 years Rev 20:2.

Rev 20:7-9 tells us what happened AFTER Satan was released from prison. In Armageddon Rev 19, there was actually a battle, but there was none in Rev 20:7-9. God didn't indulge Satan's idiosyncrasies and sent fire to devour his army. End of story!

 

[DavidPT]

Rev 20:7-9 tells us what happened AFTER Satan was released from prison. In Armageddon Rev 19, there was actually a battle, but there was none in Rev 20:7-9. God didn't indulge Satan's idiosyncrasies and sent fire to devour his army. End of story!

As to Revelation 20:7-9, the first thing to consider is, that that passage is obviously compressed. Which then should mean the missing details are found elsewhere, or other passages imply Revelation 20:7-9 without coming out and mentioning a battle like this.

As to passages that might imply Revelation 20:7-9, the following is such a passage.

Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Obviously, verse 12 hasn't been fulfilled yet. Obviously as well, verses 16-18 are meaning post verse 12. Everyone that is left here of all the nations which came against Jerusalem, can't be meaning saved saints that put on bodily immortality at the 2nd coming if they can be threatened with punishments for failing to comply with what is commanded of them. Therefore, these have to be mortals, and we all know no mortal can live forever. And the fact they might not be happy campers during the thousand years since they face punishments for failing to comply, makes them perfect candidates for satan to deceive after the millennium, deceiving them to think they can somehow overthrow Christ's one world government.

Amils find that preposterous, that anyone who has been in the bodily presence of Christ for a thousand years, that they can then rebel in the end. If that's preposterous, it should be equally preposterous that the devil and his angels basically did the very same thing. They were clearly in God's presence, clearly knew He was God, clearly knew He had created them, yet they rebelled, regardless. Obviously, beings such as satan, they are vastly superior in intelligence than that of man. They obviously know things that haven't even entered the minds of men. And if they can rebel, but that that is not preposterous, why is it preposterous that man can rebel as well, even though God was literally in their presence for a thousand years?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

What we have to factor in here, according to Revelation 19:19, it is the beast and it's armies vs Christ and His army. And that Revelation 19:14 informs us that Christ's army is descending with Him from the sky. Which then means, somewhere between the 6th vial and 7th vial, or maybe during the 7th vial, the dead in Christ rise, and the rapture of the church takes place. Otherwise, how do we explain the armies in Revelation 19:14? These armies, though they might include angels, they obviously also include saved saints.

One way I explain these armies in verse 14, which is the same army with Christ in verse 19, is via 1 Thessalonians 4:17-20. Another way is such as how I did at the end of post #7.

Almost forgot, there is the following as well, which also explain the armies in Revelation 19:14, which is the same army in Revelation 19:19.

Zechariah 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all , and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Do not these passages clearly indicate, that when the Lord comes, His saints are with Him? And does not Revelation 19:14 indicate that when the Lord comes, His saints are with Him?

David, I'm not saying that His armies aren't with Him when He comes. Of course that will be the case. You're missing the point, which has nothing to do with that.

What I'm getting at is that those armies don't just start gathering after Jesus descends from heaven. It would be well before that. It doesn't talk about it specifically in Revelation 19, but they likely wage war against living, mortal saints, before that time, which would line up with Revelation 20:7-9. What Revelation 19:11-21 is portraying is only the actual day that Christ returns and not the time leading up to that. Do you agree?

You don't think that the beast and his armies only start gathering for battle once they see Jesus descending from heaven, right? That would have already been going on for some time before the day He returns, right? Well, do you think they are just ignoring living, mortal saints during the time before He returns and their only goal is to do battle with Christ Himself and his immortal armies following Him?

I think part of the problem here is that you're thinking of this as if it will all literally play out this way rather than realizing that this is all a figurative representation of the battle between the enemies of Christ and His church. Christ will put an end to it on the day He returns, and that is what is portrayed figuratively in Revelation 19 (and in Revelation 20:7-9, in my opinion).

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Isn't that what Revelation 19:19 seems to suggest?

Not to me. I think that would be ludicrous to think that the beast and his armies would even have time to gather for battle AFTER Jesus has already descended from heaven. Do you think He's just going to hang out there for several hours in the air and not do anything after He initially descends from heaven?

In order for the beast and fp to be taken, and in order for those in verse 21 to be slain, does not that require that Christ has to have bodily returned at that point?

Sure. So? What is your point?

Eric, let's start with the following two passages and compare how I'm reasoning this vs how you are reasoning this. The following is how I'm reasoning it.

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Revelation 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Both accounts have the following in common---gathered together to make war---to gather them together to battle

Except in Revelation 19 all saints are descending with Christ from the sky, while in Revelation 20 it depicts no such thing. If saints are descending with Christ from the sky above in Revelation 19, how can these saints not be literally immortal at this point? How can mortal saints be descending from the sky? How could there still be any mortal saints on the earth in light of the following?

I understand that difference, but what you seem unwilling to address is what are the beast and his armies doing before that? What Revelation 19 is depicting is ONLY the actual day Christ returns and not specifically anything that happens before that. So, how can you even compare Revelation 19 to Revelation 20:7-9 directly when only one of those passages specifically talk about a time period BEFORE the destruction described in each passage occurs? Revelation 20:7-9 talks about Satan's little season occurring before the destruction by fire occurs at the end of it, but Revelation 19 only talks about the day unbelievers are destroyed rather than the time period just preceding it. Do you see what I'm saying? So, you can't say one can't be related to the other just because one of them doesn't reference the time period leading up to the day of destruction described.

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

After that we then see this.

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

His army in verse 19, meaning Christ's army, why would it not be meaning the same armies as per verse 14? And if it is, the fact they are descending with Him from the sky, how can that not mean 1 Thessalanians 4:17-20 has been fulfilled at this point, thus all saints are now in immortal bodies?

Goodness sakes. You are apparently not reading anything I'm saying (not just in this thread, but in the other one where we're discussing this). Yes, of course, it's talking about saints in immortal bodies at that point since that is talking about the actual day Christ returns and it's referring to Him descending from heaven at that point. But, what about the time preceding that? Is that referenced specifically in Revelation 19? No. So, with that being the case, how can you conclude that what is described in Revelation 20:7-9 (before the fire comes down) can't occur before the day Christ returns?

Which means when Revelation 19:19 is being fulfilled, regardless what that might look like, since it obviously isn't involving a battle involving literal horses, etc, the armies with Christ, they are in immortal bodies at this point. And the armies with the beast, they are in mortal bodies. Thus, immortals vs mortals.

Yet you argue, in Revelation 20 it is mortal saints vs the mortal lost,

Mortal saints vs mortal lost BEFORE the day Christ returns. Revelation 19 describes the day He returns. If it also described the time before He returns and something in that description contradicted what we see in Revelation 20:7-8, then I would say you have a point, but that is not the case.

and not immortal saints vs the mortal lost. Which then has me scratching my head wondering how you can be seeing parallels here

Once again, Revelation 19 only depicts the day Christ actually returns. Do you agree? And His wrath will come down on that day, right? So, the parallel between that and Revelation 20 that I see is in Revelation 20:9 where it describes the fire coming down on the unbelievers going up against the camp of the saints (the church, in my opinion).

Revelation 19 does not tell us what the beast and its armies were doing before that day. In my view they would have been making war against mortal saints up to that point. But, then we become immortal and we meet Christ in the air and then He destroys them. I believe the idea that it is beast and its armies intention from the beginning to go up against immortals is ludicrous. Why would they think they could defeat immortals? Please explain that.

when the account involving Revelation 19 involves a battle between immortals and mortals, and that you are insisting that the battle involving Revelation 20:7-9 involves a battle between mortals vs mortals?

How do you reason those same two passages, Revelation 19:19 and Revelation 19:20:8-9? As to Revelation 19:19 in particular, in light of Revelation 19:11, Revelation 19:14, and 1 Thessalonians 4:17-20?

I've already answered these questions, but it's nothing new that you either forget my answers or just don't understand them, so you end up asking me the same questions over and over again.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Rev 16:12 expressly said that this army was deployed for Armageddon.

Yes, and with the intention of doing what exactly? Fighting against immortals? That is what is being discussed here. I am saying that their intention is to destroy the church (mortal, living believers) while DavidPT is apparently claiming that their intention from the beginning is to fight against Christ Himself and His immortal followers (angels and believers who have been changed and made immortal). What do you think?

As a Bible student, did the scriptures teach that Armageddon is before the Lord returns or after he has spent 1000 years on earth?

It's before He returns, obviously. But, the scriptures do not teach that He will spend 1000 years on earth after that. That is where you are mistaken. To believe that contradicts many scriptures including the ones that teach that Christ reigns now, that Christ will destroy all of His enemies when He returns, that the resurrection of all the dead will happen on the same day and that all people will be judged at the same time.

Rev 20:7-9 occurs at the end of the millennium - we are told that Satan gathers these unbelievers to surround the camp of the saints after his release from prison. Now, here's the difference between Armageddon and Rev 20:7-9.

• Rev 16:13 And I saw three evil[c] spirits that looked like frogs leap from the mouths of the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet. The import here is that the battle being deployed occurred while the beast (AC) and the false prophet are still around.
• Rev 19:19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the world and their armies gathered together to fight against the one sitting on the horse and his army. 20 And the beast was captured and with him the false prophet who did mighty miracles on behalf of the beast—miracles that deceived all who had accepted the mark of the beast and who worshipped his statue. Both the beast and his false prophet were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

Rev 16:13 shows the dragon's army physically commanded by the beast deployed. Rev 19:19-20 shows their capitulation at Armageddon, with the AC+False Prophet subsequently cast into the lake of fire. They are out of the scene forever. And Satan gets locked up in the bottomless pit for 1000 years Rev 20:2.

Rev 20:7-9 tells us what happened AFTER Satan was released from prison.

You're making a lot of assumptions here. I see no reason to think that these aren't all talking about the same event with the end result being all of Christ's enemies being destroyed.

If you understood that Apollyon/Abaddon is another name for Satan then you can see his release from the abyss/bottomless pit described in Revelation 9:1-11.

In Armageddon Rev 19, there was actually a battle, but there was none in Rev 20:7-9. God didn't indulge Satan's idiosyncrasies and sent fire to devour his army. End of story!

Where is a battle specifically described in Revelation 19? Like Rev 20:7-9, I see a reference to a gathering for battle, but no description of an actual battle. Instead, like Revelation 20:9, it describes the ones who gathered for battle as all being destroyed. That's not much of a battle. Each passage speaks of God's enemies all being destroyed at once. This will happen on more than one occasion in the future? I don't believe so.

 

[Trivalee]

As to Revelation 20:7-9, the first thing to consider is, that that passage is obviously compressed. Which then should mean the missing details are found elsewhere, or other passages imply Revelation 20:7-9 without coming out and mentioning a battle like this.

As to passages that might imply Revelation 20:7-9, the following is such a passage.

Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Obviously, verse 12 hasn't been fulfilled yet. Obviously as well, verses 16-18 are meaning post verse 12. Everyone that is left here of all the nations which came against Jerusalem, can't be meaning saved saints that put on bodily immortality at the 2nd coming if they can be threatened with punishments for failing to comply with what is commanded of them. Therefore, these have to be mortals, and we all know no mortal can live forever. And the fact they might not be happy campers during the thousand years since they face punishments for failing to comply, makes them perfect candidates for satan to deceive after the millennium, deceiving them to think they can somehow overthrow Christ's one world government.

Amils find that preposterous, that anyone who has been in the bodily presence of Christ for a thousand years, that they can then rebel in the end. If that's preposterous, it should be equally preposterous that the devil and his angels basically did the very same thing. They were clearly in God's presence, clearly knew He was God, clearly knew He had created them, yet they rebelled, regardless. Obviously, beings such as satan, they are vastly superior in intelligence than that of man. They obviously know things that haven't even entered the minds of men. And if they can rebel, but that that is not preposterous, why is it preposterous that man can rebel as well, even though God was literally in their presence for a thousand years?

The prophet Zechariah focused primarily on the events leading up to the return of the Lord and the millennium. The stage for the battle was set back in Zech 14:2; Joel 3:2 before the Lord returned to Mount Olives. By this time, the AC's army had enjoyed a momentary victory by slaughtering the intransigent Jews who failed to heed the warning to flee. Jerusalem fell, Jewish homes looted, their women raped, and others forced out of the city.

In v-3, the Lord returns and goes to battle against the beast's army, but the theatre of war is not in Jerusalem but in Armageddon. So, I believe we are on the same page in this account.

Personally, I do not believe that those mortals that the Lord allowed to enter the millennium will live till the end of it. My reason is that it would make them live over 1000 years, and no one, not even Methuselah or any of those who walked with God before the flood, achieved that. I believe that those we see in Rev 20:7-9 are their offspring. As far as conjecture goes, I posit that some of those born in the millennium will believe in Jesus while others will not. They will consequently be susceptible to Satan's deception after his release.

Of all the end-time theories, Amil is the most illogical. I've learned to avoid discussing eschatology with Amil sympathizers because all I have for my effort is a headache. Secondly, I can't fault your rebuttal of their position.

 

[Trivalee]

Yes, and with the intention of doing what exactly? Fighting against immortals? That is what is being discussed here. I am saying that their intention is to destroy the church (mortal, living believers) while DavidPT is apparently claiming that their intention from the beginning is to fight against Christ Himself and His immortal followers (angels and believers who have been changed and made immortal). What do you think?

That's the idea! The fact it seems inconceivable doesn't negate its reality. The dragon who empowers the AC will inexplicably believe he could win the battle. There is no basis to suggest it is to destroy the church because the church is in hiding and doesn't have an army. DavidPT is absolutely correct that Satan's/AC's intention is to fight the Lord in the misguided hope that they'll win.

 

[DavidPT]

Personally, I do not believe that those mortals that the Lord allowed to enter the millennium will live till the end of it. My reason is that it would make them live over 1000 years, and no one, not even Methuselah or any of those who walked with God before the food, achieved that. I believe that those we see in Rev 20:7-9 are their offspring. As far as conjecture goes, I posit that some of those born in the millennium will believe in Jesus while others will not. They will consequently be susceptible to Satan's deception after his release.

Interestingly, that's the reason I think mortals will live an entire thousand years and then some. That is because no one has done it yet, and here they will be doing it, and doing it while God is bodily present among them at the time, and they still rebelling in the end.

Why would these mortals be spared in order to produce offspring, where in the end, all of their offspring is devoured by fire from God out of heaven?

Something you might not be factoring in, when Christ returns there will obviously be infants and young children throughout the earth, and that they obviously wouldn't be among the beast's armies. What should we assume happens to them at the time? Is it possible that they grow up, thus grow older during the millennium? Obviously, no one that puts on bodily immortality is ever going to age, but do these infants and young children also put on bodily immortality at the 2nd coming? Maybe, maybe not. I'm not certain. Something to ponder at least.

 

[Trivalee]

It's before He returns, obviously. But, the scriptures do not teach that He will spend 1000 years on earth after that. That is where you are mistaken. To believe that contradicts many scriptures including the ones that teach that Christ reigns now, that Christ will destroy all of His enemies when He returns, that the resurrection of all the dead will happen on the same day and that all people will be judged at the same time.


You're making a lot of assumptions here. I see no reason to think that these aren't all talking about the same event with the end result being all of Christ's enemies being destroyed.

If you understood that Apollyon/Abaddon is another name for Satan then you can see his release from the abyss/bottomless pit described in Revelation 9:1-11.


Where is a battle specifically described in Revelation 19? Like Rev 20:7-9, I see a reference to a gathering for battle, but no description of an actual battle. Instead, like Revelation 20:9, it describes the ones who gathered for battle as all being destroyed. That's not much of a battle. Each passage speaks of God's enemies all being destroyed at once. This will happen on more than one occasion in the future? I don't believe so.

You lost me by denying the reality of the millennium (1000 years). I don't debate with those holding Amil doctrine as I've found it pointless. In Rev 20:2-3 we are expressly told that Satan is detained in the bottomless pit for 1000 years. In Rev 20:7, we are told that 1000 years had ended and Satan is released; I don't argue with anyone that denies this Biblical truth!

Apollyon/Abaddon is a fallen angel on his right. He is not Satan - claiming he is, is where your theory went awry.

Rev 19 describes a battle and in verses 17-18 we see an angel summon the fowls of the air to come and eat human flesh - no flesh-eating bird can eat a human being while he's still alive - leaving the reader to understand that they are all dead.

 

[Trivalee]

Interestingly, that's the reason I think mortals will live an entire thousand years and then some. That is because no one has done it yet, and here they will be doing it, and doing it while God is bodily present among them at the time, and they still rebelling in the end.

Why would these mortals be spared in order to produce offspring, where in the end, all of their offspring is devoured by fire from God out of heaven?

Something you might not be factoring in, when Christ returns there will obviously be infants and young children throughout the earth, and that they obviously wouldn't be among the beast's armies. What should we assume happens to them at the time? Is it possible that they grow up, thus grow older during the millennium? Obviously, no one that puts on bodily immortality is ever going to age, but do these infants and young children also put on bodily immortality at the 2nd coming? Maybe, maybe not. I'm not certain. Something to ponder at least.

Again, I hold my position that none of the mortals that make it into the millennium will be alive at the end of it as it will mean they live for over 1000 years. I factored in infants, even a week-old baby at the start of the MK will be 1000 and a week old by the end of the millennium. If God did not allow any of the faithful before the flood to live beyond 1000 years, I don't see any mortal breaking that ceiling in the millennium, either. Unfortunately, I have no scripture to back my view, so it's merely a conjecture.

But if Jesus said that immortals cannot marry or reproduce in the regeneration (Matt 22:30), it leaves the opposite to be true, IMO. With men and women in their flesh, living in the millennium, why would they not do what is natural to the flesh - have sex and reproduce? Secondly, the number of mortals that limp into the MK will be relatively small compared to the multitude described as "the sand of the sea" - this shows an exponential increase in population. Isaiah 65:20 provides evidence that children will be born in the MK and with Satan bound at that time, humans will enjoy longevity so much so that the least age one would die will be 100 years. And such a person will even be considered an infant.

None of the flesh during the MK will have immortality - some of those born in the MK who believe in the rulership of Christ will receive immortality at the GWTJ. Remember it says (during the judgment) that books (plural) are opened, given that the faithful have already received immortality and have no need to be judged at the Throne Judgment, who do you suppose is in the other books?