Are there really any parallels between Revelation 20:7-10 and Revelation 19?

[Zao is life]

The following is based on my observations, thus I'm not saying nor implying that other views are necessarily seeing it this way.


Let's look at Revelation 19 first by starting with these verses.

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


I would think, if Revelation 19 is involving the 2nd coming like a lot of us tend to believe, verse 11 is meaning when it initially begins. Which means that verse 19 can't even get fulfilled until the 2nd coming has happened first. Regardless what it might look like when that is being fulfilled, that verse has the beast and his armies gathered together to make war with Christ and His army.

One thing we know, or should know if we don't, verse 19 is meaning after the 42 month reign of the beast. We know that because of what Revelation 13:7 records, that the saints are being overcome by the beast during it's 42 month reign. And that verse 19 in Revelation 19 is not involving any saints being overcome by the beast at the time. Therefore, in this age prior to the 2nd coming, meaning during it's 42 month reign, the beast wages war against the saints and overcomes them. Then at the end of this age once the 2nd coming has occurred, the beast and it's armies wage yet another war, this time against Christ and His army. Except this time it is the beast and it's armies that are overcome, and not any of the saints instead.


OP continued in next post.

I don't know if you will allow it, but there are parallels with other passages of scripture which seem to have the judgment of Gog and of the beast at the same time, and the great white throne judgment at the same time as the judgment of the beast:

Ezekiel 39
1 Therefore, son of man, prophesy against Gog and say, So says the Lord Jehovah: Behold, I am against you, O Gog, the chief ruler of Rosh, Meshech and Tubal.
2 And I will turn you back, and lead you on. And I will bring you on the mountains of Israel.
3 And I will strike your bow out of your left hand, and will cause your arrows to fall out of your right hand.
4 You shall fall on the mountains of Israel, you and all your bands, and the people with you. I will give you for food to the birds of prey of every kind, and to the beasts of the field.

17 And you, son of man, So says the Lord Jehovah. Speak to the bird of every wing, and to every beast of the field: Gather yourselves and come; gather yourselves from all around to My sacrifice that I sacrifice for you, a great sacrifice on the mountains of Israel, so that you may eat flesh and drink blood.
18 You shall eat the flesh of the mighty and drink the blood of the rulers of the earth, of rams, lambs, goats, and bulls, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
19 And you shall eat fat until you are full, and drink blood until you are drunk, of My sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
20 And you shall be filled at My table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, all the men of war, says the Lord Jehovah.
21 And I will set My glory among the nations, and all the nations shall see My judgments which I have done, and My hand that I have laid on them.
22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

Revelation 20
7 And when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be loosed out of his prison.
8 And he will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle. The number of them is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up over the breadth of the earth and circled around the camp of the saints, and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of Heaven and devoured them.
10 And the Devil who deceived them was cast into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet were. And he will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Revelation 19
17 And I saw one angel standing in the sun. And he cried with a great voice, saying to all the birds that fly in mid-heaven, Come and gather together to the supper of the great God,​

18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of commanders, and the flesh of strong ones, and the flesh of horses, and those sitting on them, and the flesh of all, both free and slave, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth and their armies, being gathered to make war against Him who sat on the horse, and against His army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet doing signs before it, (by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast), and those who had worshiped his image. The two were thrown alive into the Lake of Fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the rest were slain by the sword of Him who sat on the horse, it proceeding out of His mouth. And all the birds were filled from their flesh.

Daniel 7​

9 I watched until the thrones were thrown up, and the Ancient of Days sat, whose robe was white as snow, and the hair of His head like the pure wool. His throne was like flames of fire, and His wheels like burning fire.
10 A stream of fire went out and came out from before Him. A thousand thousands served Him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him. The judgment was set, and the books were opened.

11 Then I was looking because of the voice of the great words which the horn spoke. I watched until the beast was slain, and his body was destroyed and given to the burning flame.
12 And the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away. Yet their lives were made longer for a season and time.
13 I saw in the night visions, and behold, One like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of Days, and they brought Him near before Him.
14 And dominion and glory was given Him, and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations and languages, should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion which shall not pass away, and His kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Revelation 20
11 And I saw a great white throne, and Him sitting on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And a place was not found for them.
12 And I saw the dead, the small and the great, stand before God. And the books were opened, and another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead in it. And death and hell delivered up the dead in them. And each one of them was judged according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death.
15 And if anyone was not found having been written in the Book of Life, he was cast into the Lake of Fire.​

This is why it's so difficult to understand aright, IMO. The above scriptures will immediately be ceased upon by many Amillennialists as "biblical evidence of Amillenialism", yet those who were beheaded by the same beast before he was judged, are reigning with Christ for a thousand years - which cannot be from the commencement of the same thousand years which closes with the judgment of the beast that beheaded them.

Nor is there any evidence in the New Testament that Satan has ever been bound in the way mentioned in Revelation 20:1-3 (I'm not talking about Satan being 'bound' in the way mentioned by Amillennialists, but in the way mentioned in Revelation 20:1-3). There is nothing in the New Testament to say he has been bound in the way mentioned in Revelation 20:1-3 - though the opposite is mentioned numerous times as the current status-quo.

Yet the scripture passages I quoted above in the Old Testament kind of at least seem to coincide with the judgment of the beast at the end of this Age. But where are these people living in unwalled villages as in Ezekiel who become attacked by Gog's armies? Hardly the land of walls between Palestinian villages and Israeli settlements in East Jerusalem and the West Bank, which is also hardly the Israel of God on either side of those walls populated by those who believe that God has no Son and Jesus did not die for our sins and the sins of the whole world.

What do you think about how Daniel 7 seems to speak about a throne/thrones and books being opened when the 4th beast is judged? And about Ezekiel speaking about the birds being gathered together for the feast of God when Gog is judged? And Ezekiel specifically mentions the mountains of Israel as though it's talking about the same geographic location on earth that was always regarded as the land promised to Abraham throughout Old Testament times.

I have no answers to the above scriptures to be honest. How do you view them?

 

[Trivalee]

That's the only thing that can possibly mean since it is crystal clear that that is meaning post Christ's bodily return, the fact it is meaning post Zechariah 14:12. Anyone that insists Zechariah 14:12 has already been fulfilled is making up stuff since it's obvious that hasn't been fulfilled yet. And if we don't apply Zechariah 14:16-19 to a future millennium, this can only mean one thing in that case, mortals post Christ's return live forever, thus can't die either. Which of course is preposterous. We know these are mortals because no saved saint that has put on bodily immortality at the last trump when Christ returns, is then going to be threatened with punishments for failing to comply with what is commanded of them.

and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee(Zechariah 14:5)

This event occurs first. It's involving the same event the following is involving. Are some interpreters going to insist that the following in the NT is involving Christ's return in the end of this age but what is recorded in Zechariah 14:5 isn't?

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Does Zechariah 14:5 also involve the Lord coming to execute judgment at the time? It does if it leads to the following, which it clearly leads to.

Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.


Compare that with the following.

Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Then we need to factor the following in post that.

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.


This is meaning after Zechariah 14:12 and Revelation 19:21 are fulfilled, not before they are fulfilled. And it clearly says, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles---there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

The text indicates that this is meaning everyone that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem, therefore, it is not meaning those that Zechariah 14:12 and Revelation 19:21 happened to. Because, clearly, what happens to those per Zechariah 14:12 and Revelation 19:21, they would not still be remaining after that, thus they can't remotely fit these---every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem.

To add to your valid observations above, those that deny that God will allow some mortals to survive the GT and enter the millennium forget that the sheep and goat judgment (Matt 25) occurs at the beginning of the millennium. And it is human beings that are judged not immortals.

 

[DavidPT]

Daniel 7​

9 I watched until the thrones were thrown up, and the Ancient of Days sat, whose robe was white as snow, and the hair of His head like the pure wool. His throne was like flames of fire, and His wheels like burning fire.
10 A stream of fire went out and came out from before Him. A thousand thousands served Him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him. The judgment was set, and the books were opened.

11 Then I was looking because of the voice of the great words which the horn spoke. I watched until the beast was slain, and his body was destroyed and given to the burning flame.
12 And the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away. Yet their lives were made longer for a season and time.
13 I saw in the night visions, and behold, One like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of Days, and they brought Him near before Him.
14 And dominion and glory was given Him, and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations and languages, should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion which shall not pass away, and His kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Revelation 20
11 And I saw a great white throne, and Him sitting on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And a place was not found for them.
12 And I saw the dead, the small and the great, stand before God. And the books were opened, and another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead in it. And death and hell delivered up the dead in them. And each one of them was judged according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death.
15 And if anyone was not found having been written in the Book of Life, he was cast into the Lake of Fire.​

A cpl of things to note here. In Revelation 20, regardless when one thinks the beast and satan get cast into the LOF, they are already in the LOF before the great white throne judgment even takes place. The great white throne judgment is not even a judgment involving satan nor the beast. Nowhere in Revelation 20:11-15 is satan nor the beast seen standing among the dead being judged at the time.

As to Daniel 7:9-14, nowhere in that text does it mention satan being cast into the LOF at the time, nor does it mention any humans being cast into the LOF at the time. But let's assume those verses do refer to Revelation 20:11-15, regardless. What would be the point of Daniel 7:12 if the context of the previous verses are referring to the great white throne judgment in Revelation 20? We would be at the end of everything if Daniel 7:9-11 is involving the great white throne judgment. We would not need to know what happened to the rest of the beasts at an earlier time in history. It would be irrelevant in a context like that.

If Daniel 7:9-11 is involving the literal end of things, thus no time period follows after the beast is given to the burning flame, verse 12 would not be telling us the rest of the beasts, their lives were made longer for a season and time. That verse would be telling us that they too were given to the burning flame when the beast was, except it doesn't tell us that.

IMO, there are two comings of Christ in Daniel 7. There is a coming in verse 13 and there is a coming in verse 22. IMO, the coming in verse 13 is meaning His ascension 2000 years ago, and that it is parenthetical, that it explains who it is that is sitting on the throne in Daniel 7:9-12 and how He aquired that position.

The coming in verse 22 is meaning Christ's bodily return in the end of this age. How we can know that is because it is meaning after verse 21, that it is His coming that puts an end to the beast prevailing against the saints. IMO, verse 21-22 is then the interpretation of verses 9-12.

Some argue that the scene in Daniel 7:9-11 is heaven. Except I disagree for a cpl of reasons. One reason being, Christ is already in heaven and that He is returning to the earth. And when He confronts the beast He is not still in heaven at the time. The text in verse 11 says the beast is given to the burning flame, which I take to mean the LOF. The LOF would not be in heaven. It could possibly be on the earth somewhere, though. Except we don't know where at this point in time, assuming it might be on the earth or maybe in the earth, thus not something visible on the surface of the earth.

I have pointed out the following before. Apparently, this is mainly a KJV thing though it might work with other translations. If one does a search in the KJV for the following phrase---and judgment was given-that phrase shows up 2 times. 1 time in the OT and 1 time in the NT.

Daniel 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


I don't see this as a coincidence. Someone is trying to tell us something here, IMO. This is telling me though it might not be telling someone else this, that Daniel 7:22 is involving the same time period Revelation 20:4 is involving And if Daniel 7:9-12 is involving the same time period Daniel 7:22 is involving, and that Daniel 7:9-12 is involving the same time period Revelation 19:19-21 is involving, Daniel 7:9-12 can't be involving both the time period Revelation 20:4 and Revelation 20:11-15 are involving, it has to be one or the other. It has to be involving the time period Revelation 20:4 is involving. Which means per Daniel 7:22---and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom---that this is meaning the thousand years.

IMO, no way can Amils logically square Daniel 7:22---and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom---with their view of things, even if they agreed that is meaning Revelation 20:4. The reason they can't is because verse 22 is meaning after verse 21. Which would mean, since they put the beginning of the thousand years at the time of the cross, or soon after, that would place the time of verse 21 before the time of the cross. No way can Daniel 7:21 be meaning before the cross. Daniel 7:21 fits in the final days of this present age. It is referring to the 42 month reign of the beast in Revelation 13.

I better stop for now. This post ended up being lengthier than I was initially anticipating.

 

[claninja]

pl of things to note here. In Revelation 20, regardless when one thinks the beast and satan get cast into the LOF, they are already in the LOF before the great white throne judgment even takes place. The great white throne judgment is not even a judgment involving satan nor the beast. Nowhere in Revelation 20:11-15 is satan nor the beast seen standing among the dead being judged at the time.

And this tends to be one of the biggest problems with Premil. Christ is in heaven until his enemies have been defeated, the last one being death, according to Hebrews and 1 Corinthians 15.


Hebrews 10:13-13 12But when Christb had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet.

1 Corinthians 15:25-26 25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

IF revelation 19-20 is to be understood as one big chronological and literal vision, where is death finally destroyed?

Well, according to chapter 20, around the time of the GWTJ.

Revelation 20:14 14Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire.

So this creates a problem, if Christ is in heaven until his enemies are destroyed, the last one being death, how can Christ be on earth destroying the beast, and reigning for 1,000 years prior to the destruction of death?

 

[claninja]

Daniel 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Daniel 7:2-14 contain the visions.

Daniel 7:17-18 contains the simple explanation of the all the visions in vs 2-14.

Daniel 7:23-27 contains a more detailed explanation of the visions in Daniel 7:7-14.

 

[DavidPT]

And this tends to be one of the biggest problems with Premil. Christ is in heaven until his enemies have been defeated, the last one being death, according to Hebrews and 1 Corinthians 15.


Hebrews 10:13-13 12But when Christb had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet.

1 Corinthians 15:25-26 25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

IF revelation 19-20 is to be understood as one big chronological and literal vision, where is death finally destroyed?

Well, according to chapter 20, around the time of the GWTJ.

Revelation 20:14 14Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire.

So this creates a problem, if Christ is in heaven until his enemies are destroyed, the last one being death, how can Christ be on earth destroying the beast, and reigning for 1,000 years prior to the destruction of death?

It appears to me that you maybe think He can only sit on the right hand of power in heaven, that He can't also still be doing that when He returns? I would think, whenever the great white throne judgment is meaning, it is not a judgment that is taking place in heaven since I don't see it making sense that the unsaved appear in heaven in order to be judged and sentenced from there. So, until the great white throne judgment is finished, the last enemy hasn't been destroyed yet., and that the great white throne judgment wouldn't be taking place in heaven. Keeping in mind that Christ will be the one sitting on the great white throne doing the judging and sentencing.

 

[DavidPT]

Daniel 7:2-14 contain the visions.

Daniel 7:17-18 contains the simple explanation of the all the visions in vs 2-14.

Daniel 7:23-27 contains a more detailed explanation of the visions in Daniel 7:7-14.

You seem to have left out some of the verses I'm arguing with, such as verse 21 and 22. What about them?

 

[DavidPT]

So this creates a problem, if Christ is in heaven until his enemies are destroyed, the last one being death, how can Christ be on earth destroying the beast, and reigning for 1,000 years prior to the destruction of death?

Maybe none of this makes sense if one is trying to understand Premil from the perspective of Preterism. Premil does not think Christ is in heaven until His enemies are destroyed. That's not even logical anyway, the fact the great white throne has to be finished before the last enemy is destroyed, and that Christ would not still be in heaven during the GWTJ, regardless when the GWTJ is meaning.

Premils and Amils who are not also Preterists, agree that Christ has bodily left heaven when He is seen confronting the beast in Revelation 19. Obviously, regardless when the GWTJ is meaning, it is meaning after Revelation 19:20-21 has been fulfilled first, otherwise, what judgment do those in verse 21 face when they too are bodily resurrected? It can't be the GWTJ if that already took place before they were slain.

You in particular tend to employ block logic, correct? Do you ever see step logic being relevant? For example, what I just indicated about the GWTJ in light of Revelation 19:20-21, that those verses have to be fulfilled before there can even be a GWTJ, thus step logic. Then there is Daniel 7:21-22, and that verse 21 leads to verse 22, thus step logic.

 

[Zao is life]

A cpl of things to note here. In Revelation 20, regardless when one thinks the beast and satan get cast into the LOF, they are already in the LOF before the great white throne judgment even takes place. The great white throne judgment is not even a judgment involving satan nor the beast. Nowhere in Revelation 20:11-15 is satan nor the beast seen standing among the dead being judged at the time.

As to Daniel 7:9-14, nowhere in that text does it mention satan being cast into the LOF at the time, nor does it mention any humans being cast into the LOF at the time. But let's assume those verses do refer to Revelation 20:11-15, regardless. What would be the point of Daniel 7:12 if the context of the previous verses are referring to the great white throne judgment in Revelation 20? We would be at the end of everything if Daniel 7:9-11 is involving the great white throne judgment. We would not need to know what happened to the rest of the beasts at an earlier time in history. It would be irrelevant in a context like that.

If Daniel 7:9-11 is involving the literal end of things, thus no time period follows after the beast is given to the burning flame, verse 12 would not be telling us the rest of the beasts, their lives were made longer for a season and time. That verse would be telling us that they too were given to the burning flame when the beast was, except it doesn't tell us that.

IMO, there are two comings of Christ in Daniel 7. There is a coming in verse 13 and there is a coming in verse 22. IMO, the coming in verse 13 is meaning His ascension 2000 years ago, and that it is parenthetical, that it explains who it is that is sitting on the throne in Daniel 7:9-12 and how He aquired that position.

The coming in verse 22 is meaning Christ's bodily return in the end of this age. How we can know that is because it is meaning after verse 21, that it is His coming that puts an end to the beast prevailing against the saints. IMO, verse 21-22 is then the interpretation of verses 9-12.

Some argue that the scene in Daniel 7:9-11 is heaven. Except I disagree for a cpl of reasons. One reason being, Christ is already in heaven and that He is returning to the earth. And when He confronts the beast He is not still in heaven at the time. The text in verse 11 says the beast is given to the burning flame, which I take to mean the LOF. The LOF would not be in heaven. It could possibly be on the earth somewhere, though. Except we don't know where at this point in time, assuming it might be on the earth or maybe in the earth, thus not something visible on the surface of the earth.

I have pointed out the following before. Apparently, this is mainly a KJV thing though it might work with other translations. If one does a search in the KJV for the following phrase---and judgment was given-that phrase shows up 2 times. 1 time in the OT and 1 time in the NT.

Daniel 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


I don't see this as a coincidence. Someone is trying to tell us something here, IMO. This is telling me though it might not be telling someone else this, that Daniel 7:22 is involving the same time period Revelation 20:4 is involving And if Daniel 7:9-12 is involving the same time period Daniel 7:22 is involving, and that Daniel 7:9-12 is involving the same time period Revelation 19:19-21 is involving, Daniel 7:9-12 can't be involving both the time period Revelation 20:4 and Revelation 20:11-15 are involving, it has to be one or the other. It has to be involving the time period Revelation 20:4 is involving. Which means per Daniel 7:22---and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom---that this is meaning the thousand years.

IMO, no way can Amils logically square Daniel 7:22---and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom---with their view of things, even if they agreed that is meaning Revelation 20:4. The reason they can't is because verse 22 is meaning after verse 21. Which would mean, since they put the beginning of the thousand years at the time of the cross, or soon after, that would place the time of verse 21 before the time of the cross. No way can Daniel 7:21 be meaning before the cross. Daniel 7:21 fits in the final days of this present age. It is referring to the 42 month reign of the beast in Revelation 13.

I better stop for now. This post ended up being lengthier than I was initially anticipating.

If Daniel 7:9-11 is involving the literal end of things, thus no time period follows after the beast is given to the burning flame, verse 12 would not be telling us the rest of the beasts, their lives were made longer for a season and time. That verse would be telling us that they too were given to the burning flame when the beast was, except it doesn't tell us that.

This is why I believe it's too unclear for anyone to do anything but speculate. Revelation 13:2 says that the beast (that will ascend from the abyss) is "like a leopard, and its feet like those of a bear, and its mouth like the mouth of a lion." The very symbols used for the first three beasts mentioned in Daniel 7.

It's like the fourth beast is a combination of them all. Such was the kingdom of Antiochus IV Epiphanes, and such (I believe) will be the beast of the last days, the former being the forerunner of the latter.

So I believe that "the rest of the beasts" is talking about the fact that those first three beasts mentioned in Daniel 7 had their dominion taken away (by the Seleucid Empire), but their lives were spared. Those kingdoms had parts of their dominion removed by the Roman Empire later also (but Rome did not rule over the entire original region).

And those kingdoms do not exist anymore, yet they do exist, albeit in different forms (Iran, Iraq, Syria and Turkey).

Revelation 13:2 (I believe) is implying that these will all be combined in the beast of the last days, and this beast will be cast into the LOF (where again, the way Antiochus IV Epiphanes met his end is a forerunner of the beast and FP being thrown alive in the LOF).

I also do not see any part of Daniel 7:15-27 as "not" being the explanation Daniel was being given regarding the visions he described seeing in Daniel 7:3-14. Daniel was seeing visions of four beasts and the judgment of the fourth, and this is what he was describing, IMO. I can't see any reason why one part should be separated from another as you say below:

IMO, there are two comings of Christ in Daniel 7. There is a coming in verse 13 and there is a coming in verse 22.

IMO, the coming in verse 13 is meaning His ascension 2000 years ago, and that it is parenthetical, that it explains who it is that is sitting on the throne in Daniel 7:9-12 and how He aquired that position.

The coming in verse 22 is meaning Christ's bodily return in the end of this age. How we can know that is because it is meaning after verse 21, that it is His coming that puts an end to the beast prevailing against the saints. IMO, verse 21-22 is then the interpretation of verses 9-12.

I don't agree with that at all. It's not how I read the text. I don't believe Daniel 7:19-27 (the explanation of the visions Daniel saw in Daniel 7:3-14, can be separated into the two different periods you are talking about - aside from the fact that I believe that Antiochus IV Epiphanes was the forerunner of the fourth beast, which is the same as the beast of Revelation 13:2, which will be judged by Christ (I used to see the fourth beast as Rome, but no longer).

So I do believe that the fourth beast fits two different eras, but the ultimate fulfillment of the fourth beast and of the judgment of the fourth beast is the judgment of the beast of the Revelation, and it's foreshadowed by the judgment of Antiochus IV Epiphanes.

If Daniel 7:9-11 is involving the literal end of things, thus no time period follows after the beast is given to the burning flame, verse 12 would not be telling us the rest of the beasts, their lives were made longer for a season and time. That verse would be telling us that they too were given to the burning flame when the beast was, except it doesn't tell us that.

I believe that's because the rest of the beasts are speaking about the first three beasts that lost their dominions eventually to the Seleucid Empire and came under the rule of Antiochus IV Epiphanes and yet survived his demise - because the same lion, leopard and bear are used as symbols for the beast of Revelation 13 in Revelation 13:2. The kingdom of the Seleucid kings who came after Alexander the Great was the exact same territories of the kingdoms of Babylon, Persia, and Assyria. Same area - the empire of Antiochus IV covered the same area, and the entire area.

I used to be confused about Daniel 7:12, but I really do not believe anymore that they refer to beasts that survive the judgment to come. The lion, leopard and bear are part of the beast that will be thrown in the LOF at the close of this Age. They cannot be mentioned with the beast of the Revelation if their lives had not been spared for a season and a time until the beast is thrown into the LOF.

Some argue that the scene in Daniel 7:9-11 is heaven. Except I disagree for a cpl of reasons. One reason being, Christ is already in heaven and that He is returning to the earth. And when He confronts the beast He is not still in heaven at the time.

The text in verse 11 says the beast is given to the burning flame, which I take to mean the LOF. The LOF would not be in heaven. It could possibly be on the earth somewhere, though. Except we don't know where at this point in time, assuming it might be on the earth or maybe in the earth, thus not something visible on the surface of the earth.

I have pointed out the following before. Apparently, this is mainly a KJV thing though it might work with other translations. If one does a search in the KJV for the following phrase---and judgment was given-that phrase shows up 2 times. 1 time in the OT and 1 time in the NT.

I agree. And thanks again for mentioning the fact that it's the only two places where the phrase appears in the Bible. Revelation 19 has the beast coming to battle against Christ, and Christ, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, coming down for battle, and His saints following Him on white horses.

Revelation 17 says that the 10 kings will make war against the Lamb but He will overcome them because He is Lord of lords and King of kings and those who are with Him are called and chosen and faithful. It seems to me to be talking about post-resurrection of the saints. In Revelation 11, their enemies who were rejoicing over their dead bodies watched them (the two witnesses) as they ascended to heaven after rising again from the dead.

So their enemies were still alive when they ascended. The beast had not been destroyed yet at that point.

So this would explain Revelation 20:4a:

Daniel 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them.

It would also explain why after this they are seen reigning with Christ for a thousand years.

But the rest of the beasts I believe are referenced in Revelation 13:2 in the lion, the leopard and the bear, and they will have been thrown into the LOF with the beast and the false prophet.

So that leaves me still with the fact that again, I used to see the GWT judgment as following the thousand years chronologically, but now I question whether or not it's the case. It may merely be another part of the "one" vision the the end times of Revelation Chapters 13-16 & 19-20, so that John is merely being given another part of the picture, another layer, in Revelation 20:11-15

- BUT whereas what is seen by John taking place at the close of Revelation 19 through to Revelation 20:4a (where the saints come in judgment with Christ, and John sees thrones, i.e in the plural, as did Daniel), in Revelation 20:11 there is only ONE throne, so that this is the final GWT judgment where only Christ is the judge only God is on a throne.

Anyway there are more than one or two ways of understanding what Daniel, Ezekiel and John saw in visions. And the saints disagree. Hopefully the saints won't be arguing with one another about what should be done in this and that case when they are seated on thrones!

 

[claninja]

It appears to me that you maybe think He can only sit on the right hand of power in heaven, that He can't also still be doing that when He returns? I would think, whenever the great white throne judgment is meaning, it is not a judgment that is taking place in heaven since I don't see it making sense that the unsaved appear in heaven in order to be judged and sentenced from there. So, until the great white throne judgment is finished, the last enemy hasn't been destroyed yet., and that the great white throne judgment wouldn't be taking place in heaven. Keeping in mind that Christ will be the one sitting on the great white throne doing the judging and sentencing.

Maybe none of this makes sense if one is trying to understand Premil from the perspective of Preterism. Premil does not think Christ is in heaven until His enemies are destroyed. That's not even logical anyway, the fact the great white throne has to be finished before the last enemy is destroyed, and that Christ would not still be in heaven during the GWTJ, regardless when the GWTJ is meaning.

Premils and Amils who are not also Preterists, agree that Christ has bodily left heaven when He is seen confronting the beast in Revelation 19. Obviously, regardless when the GWTJ is meaning, it is meaning after Revelation 19:20-21 has been fulfilled first, otherwise, what judgment do those in verse 21 face when they too are bodily resurrected? It can't be the GWTJ if that already took place before they were slain.

You in particular tend to employ block logic, correct? Do you ever see step logic being relevant? For example, what I just indicated about the GWTJ in light of Revelation 19:20-21, that those verses have to be fulfilled before there can even be a GWTJ, thus step logic. Then there is Daniel 7:21-22, and that verse 21 leads to verse 22, thus step logic.

Right, that’s my point. Modern day Premil, contrary to the NT apostles, teaches Christ descends from heaven prior to his enemies being made a footstool, specifically prior to the destruction of death. Modern day premil has christ descending 1000 years plus a little season prior to the destruction of death and removal of heavens and earth.

Paul teaches the last enemy is defeated at the coming of Christ when the dead are raised (1 Corinthians 15). This is contrary to what premil teaches

Peter teaches that removal of the heavens and earth occur at the coming of Christ (2 Peter 3). This is contrary to what modern premil teaches.

It’s hard to follow premil, because its interpretation of a highly symbolic book doesn’t add up with what the apostles taught.

That’s the main problem. Modern day premils chronology of revelation 19-20 is contrary to any chronology taught by the apostles in epistles.

 

[claninja]

You seem to have left out some of the verses I'm arguing with, such as verse 21 and 22. What about them?

Vs 21-22 are part of the visions in Daniel 7:2-14. Daniel 7:17-18 is the simple explanation of all of it. Vs 23-27 is the more detailed explanation of the fourth kingdom. The more detailed explanation should not be interpreted beyond the simple explanation. In this entire vision you only have ONE event where the son of man comes on the clouds.

 

[DavidPT]

This is why I believe it's too unclear for anyone to do anything but speculate. Revelation 13:2 says that the beast (that will ascend from the abyss) is "like a leopard, and its feet like those of a bear, and its mouth like the mouth of a lion." The very symbols used for the first three beasts mentioned in Daniel 7.

It's like the fourth beast is a combination of them all. Such was the kingdom of Antiochus IV Epiphanes, and such (I believe) will be the beast of the last days, the former being the forerunner of the latter.

So I believe that "the rest of the beasts" is talking about the fact that those first three beasts mentioned in Daniel 7 had their dominion taken away (by the Seleucid Empire), but their lives were spared. Those kingdoms had parts of their dominion removed by the Roman Empire later also (but Rome did not rule over the entire original region).

And those kingdoms do not exist anymore, yet they do exist, albeit in different forms (Iran, Iraq, Syria and Turkey).

Revelation 13:2 (I believe) is implying that these will all be combined in the beast of the last days, and this beast will be cast into the LOF (where again, the way Antiochus IV Epiphanes met his end is a forerunner of the beast and FP being thrown alive in the LOF).

I also do not see any part of Daniel 7:15-27 as "not" being the explanation Daniel was being given regarding the visions he described seeing in Daniel 7:3-14. Daniel was seeing visions of four beasts and the judgment of the fourth, and this is what he was describing, IMO. I can't see any reason why one part should be separated from another as you say below:

I don't agree with that at all. It's not how I read the text. I don't believe Daniel 7:19-27 (the explanation of the visions Daniel saw in Daniel 7:3-14, can be separated into the two different periods you are talking about - aside from the fact that I believe that Antiochus IV Epiphanes was the forerunner of the fourth beast, which is the same as the beast of Revelation 13:2, which will be judged by Christ (I used to see the fourth beast as Rome, but no longer).

So I do believe that the fourth beast fits two different eras, but the ultimate fulfillment of the fourth beast and of the judgment of the fourth beast is the judgment of the beast of the Revelation, and it's foreshadowed by the judgment of Antiochus IV Epiphanes.

I believe that's because the rest of the beasts are speaking about the first three beasts that lost their dominions eventually to the Seleucid Empire and came under the rule of Antiochus IV Epiphanes and yet survived his demise - because the same lion, leopard and bear are used as symbols for the beast of Revelation 13 in Revelation 13:2. The kingdom of the Seleucid kings who came after Alexander the Great was the exact same territories of the kingdoms of Babylon, Persia, and Assyria. Same area - the empire of Antiochus IV covered the same area, and the entire area.

I used to be confused about Daniel 7:12, but I really do not believe anymore that they refer to beasts that survive the judgment to come. The lion, leopard and bear are part of the beast that will be thrown in the LOF at the close of this Age. They cannot be mentioned with the beast of the Revelation if their lives had not been spared for a season and a time until the beast is thrown into the LOF.

I agree. And thanks again for mentioning the fact that it's the only two places where the phrase appears in the Bible. Revelation 19 has the beast coming to battle against Christ, and Christ, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, coming down for battle, and His saints following Him on white horses.

Revelation 17 says that the 10 kings will make war against the Lamb but He will overcome them because He is Lord of lords and King of kings and those who are with Him are called and chosen and faithful. It seems to me to be talking about post-resurrection of the saints. In Revelation 11, their enemies who were rejoicing over their dead bodies watched them (the two witnesses) as they ascended to heaven after rising again from the dead.

So their enemies were still alive when they ascended. The beast had not been destroyed yet at that point.

So this would explain Revelation 20:4a:

It would also explain why after this they are seen reigning with Christ for a thousand years.

But the rest of the beasts I believe are referenced in Revelation 13:2 in the lion, the leopard and the bear, and they will have been thrown into the LOF with the beast and the false prophet.

So that leaves me still with the fact that again, I used to see the GWT judgment as following the thousand years chronologically, but now I question whether or not it's the case. It may merely be another part of the "one" vision the the end times of Revelation Chapters 13-16 & 19-20, so that John is merely being given another part of the picture, another layer, in Revelation 20:11-15

- BUT whereas what is seen by John taking place at the close of Revelation 19 through to Revelation 20:4a (where the saints come in judgment with Christ, and John sees thrones, i.e in the plural, as did Daniel), in Revelation 20:11 there is only ONE throne, so that this is the final GWT judgment where only Christ is the judge only God is on a throne.

Anyway there are more than one or two ways of understanding what Daniel, Ezekiel and John saw in visions. And the saints disagree. Hopefully the saints won't be arguing with one another about what should be done in this and that case when they are seated on thrones!

As to my point in regards to Daniel 7:12, if for example, it is meaning what you take it to mean, thus is parenthetical, but that verses 9-11 are referring to Revelation 20:11-15, it is then nonsensical to bring up what happened to the beasts much earlier in history if what verses 9-11 are involving is pertaining to the end of everything.

It is equally nonsensical if verses 9-11 are referring to Revelation 20:11-15, but instead of telling us the rest of the beasts were also given to the burning flame at the time, we are told their lives were prolonged for a season and time. Why would that be relevant, why would that even matter, if the context concerning verses 9-11 are involving Revelation 20:11-15?

Therefore, verses 9-11 couldn't possibly be involving what Revelation 20:11-15 is involving. Plus, keeping in mind what I already brought up, that before the GWTJ even takes place, the beast is already in the LOF, and that nowhere in Revelation 20:11-15 can the beast be seen standing among the dead being judged and sentenced.

If we instead have verses 9-11 involving the thousand years, then verse 12 tends to make sense in that context. Now we know who it is that rebels at the end of the thousand years. But the way you and other interpreters apply verse 12 makes little sense the fact verses 9-11 are involving the end of this age and the beginning of the next age, not something pertaining to the rest of the beasrs thousands of years earlier in history. Why would that matter if verses 9-11 are involving the end of this age and beyond? Who would care what happened to the rest of the beasts thousands of years earlier, assuming that is how verse 12 should be understood? Why would that be relevant per a context verses 9-11 is involving?

You said something which I think could solve some of this when you said this--"It's like the fourth beast is a combination of them all". Maybe I don't fully understand what you are meaning by that, but the way I might understand that, when the little horn is given to the burning flame, and the fact the beast has 7 heads rather than one, this doesn't put the beast fully out of commission since this only decapitates one head and that the beast can still exist because it is comprised of 6 more heads. It is then after the thousand years when the remaining heads are severed.

Even if what I am proposing here is not acceptable as a solution to verse 12 to you, at least it is making more sense of verse 12 in relation to verses 9-11 than your interpretation of verse 12 is, even if what I am proposing is not a possibility. Your interpretation of verse 12 disconnects it from verses 9-11 altogether, mine doesn't, even if I am wrong about some of this.. There is no way around it unless one is a Preterist, Daniel 7:9-11 is involving an era of time after Christ has bodily returned, and what allegedly happened to the rest of the beasts thousands of years earlier would not be relevant to verses 9-11 no matter how you look at it.

 

[DavidPT]

Right, that’s my point. Modern day Premil, contrary to the NT apostles, teaches Christ descends from heaven prior to his enemies being made a footstool, specifically prior to the destruction of death. Modern day premil has christ descending 1000 years plus a little season prior to the destruction of death and removal of heavens and earth.

Paul teaches the last enemy is defeated at the coming of Christ when the dead are raised (1 Corinthians 15). This is contrary to what premil teaches

Peter teaches that removal of the heavens and earth occur at the coming of Christ (2 Peter 3). This is contrary to what modern premil teaches.

It’s hard to follow premil, because its interpretation of a highly symbolic book doesn’t add up with what the apostles taught.

That’s the main problem. Modern day premils chronology of revelation 19-20 is contrary to any chronology taught by the apostles in epistles.

1 Corinthians 15:51 ¶Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.


What would any of this have to do with the great white throne judgment? The context concerning this passage only involves the saved and not the lost as well. Verse 57 undeniably proves that since it would be unreasonable to apply verse 57 to the unsaved who are cast into the LOF. Context matters, right?

Therefore, 1 Corinthians 15:26 hasn't been entirely fulfilled at this point since the great white throne judgment still has to follow these events, regardless when the GWTJ is meaning.

 

[DavidPT]

Right, that’s my point. Modern day Premil, contrary to the NT apostles, teaches Christ descends from heaven prior to his enemies being made a footstool, specifically prior to the destruction of death. Modern day premil has christ descending 1000 years plus a little season prior to the destruction of death and removal of heavens and earth.

Paul teaches the last enemy is defeated at the coming of Christ when the dead are raised (1 Corinthians 15). This is contrary to what premil teaches

Peter teaches that removal of the heavens and earth occur at the coming of Christ (2 Peter 3). This is contrary to what modern premil teaches.

It’s hard to follow premil, because its interpretation of a highly symbolic book doesn’t add up with what the apostles taught.

That’s the main problem. Modern day premils chronology of revelation 19-20 is contrary to any chronology taught by the apostles in epistles.

If Daniel 7:9-11 is involving the thousand years rather than the great white throne judgment, what other position can make sense out of of that if not Premil? Amil can't make sense of that if Daniel 7:9-11 is involving the thousand years since this would mean that Daniel 7:21 has to be applied before the time of the cross rather than a time after the time of the cross. '

Not to mention, there is the matter of the beast being given to the burning flame, and that certainly didn't happen before nor at the cross, keeping in mind that the beast is given to the burning flame at the beginning of the era verses 9-11 is involving, and that Amils have the thousand years beginning 2000 years ago. Of course though, some, or maybe even all Amils, are not going to agree that verses 9-11 are involving the thousand years to begin with, thus making my point moot. But what if Amils are wrong, regardless? And that Daniel 7:9-11 is involving the thousand years? What then?

One more point I would like to raise. It is not reasonable to apply Daniel 7:22 to one era of time, then apply Daniel 7:9-11 to another era of time. Whatever era of time one concludes verse 22 is involving, that same one must apply that era of time to verses 9-11 as well and vice-versa. Unless one can prove verses 21-22 is not an interpretation of verses 9-11. Both, verses 21-22 and verses 9-11, involve the beast prevailing over the saints then an end being made to this. Obviously then, both are involving the same events, the same era. Therefore, how anyone might think they can prove verses 21-22 are not involving what verses 9-11 are involving, is beyond me?

 

[DavidPT]

Vs 21-22 are part of the visions in Daniel 7:2-14. Daniel 7:17-18 is the simple explanation of all of it. Vs 23-27 is the more detailed explanation of the fourth kingdom. The more detailed explanation should not be interpreted beyond the simple explanation. In this entire vision you only have ONE event where the son of man comes on the clouds.

As to the Son of man coming on the clouds, that is meaning before the coming verse 22 is involving, thus these are not the same coming. The former involves a coming pertaining to His ascension. The latter involves a coming pertaining to His return following His ascension, and that verses 9-11 are involving events after He has returned following His ascension. Otherwise, how do we explain the beast being given to the burning flame without it involving Christ having to return following His ascension?

I thought most interpreters agree that the NT sheds light on the OT? Until the NT came along it was not entirely possible to determine from the OT alone, that Christ's coming would involve 3 phases, an initial coming when He was born, another coming after He died and rose, meaning a coming back to heaven, then a coming when He returns. Therefore, in Daniel 7 it is involving the last 2 phases, His ascension followed by His return. During His ascension the beast is prevailing against the saints. Once He returns He puts an end to that altogether. Am I alone around here or something, being able to think outside of the box like this, or are others able to think outside of the box like this as well? Hopefully I'm not alone here. Even though I want to be right about things, I don't want to be the only one who is right about things, though.

 

[DavidPT]

I also do not see any part of Daniel 7:15-27 as "not" being the explanation Daniel was being given regarding the visions he described seeing in Daniel 7:3-14. Daniel was seeing visions of four beasts and the judgment of the fourth, and this is what he was describing, IMO. I can't see any reason why one part should be separated from another as you say below:

My point in regards to verses 21-22 involving verses 9-11 have to do with it being what causes the beast prevailing against the saints to cease. As to the verses following verse 22, I agree with @claninja, this is the more detailed explanation of the 4th kingdom. Except some of those verses are looking beyond the time of the 4th kingdom, meaning verse 26 and 27.

As to some of those verses in particular, I apply them to the following era. Verse 25 is meaning during the same era verse 21 is involving. Verse 26 and 27 are pertaining to the era verses 9-11 and verse 22 are involving. IMO, it is verses 9-12 and verse 22 being what verses 26 and 27 pertain to. But, since verse 12 is debatable, I initially said verses 9-11 instead.

 

[Zao is life]

It is equally nonsensical if verses 9-11 are referring to Revelation 20:11-15, but instead of telling us the rest of the beasts were also given to the burning flame at the time, we are told their lives were prolonged for a season and time. Why would that be relevant, why would that even matter, if the context concerning verses 9-11 are involving Revelation 20:11-15?

It's not nonsensical to me because I don't believe that verses 9-11 are referring primarily or only to Revelation 19:11-21 (let's ignore Revelation 20:11-15 for the minute).

I believe the judgment of the beast of Revelation 13:1-2 is a secondary fulfillment, or (the) second fulfillment of the prophecy. The primary fulfillment was the judgment of the kingdom of Antiochus IV - which the lion, leopard and bear outlived.

I believe that Daniel projects the judgment of Antiochus IV's Seleucid Empire forward to the final empire of the last-days beast of Revelation 13:1-2,

and the last days beast of Revelation 13:1-2 incorporates the lion, the leopard and the bear ("the rest of the beasts") that outlived the judgment of Antiochus IV and his Seleucid Empire.

I do not believe Daniel 7 is talking about the Roman Empire.

So I believe that the ten toes of the image in Daniel chapter 2 and ten kings of Daniel chapter 7 are (were) the same, and Daniel is projecting them (the ten kings), together with the little horn rising up among them, forward to the final kingdom of "The Antichrist" introduced in Revelation 13:1-2. It's a second fulfillment. Not the first.

I think you interpret Daniel's 4th beast as referring only to the beast of Revelation 13 instead of primarily to the Seleucid Empire of Antiochus IV and secondly and lastly to the beast of Revelation 13, and this is why you can't see how "the rest of the beasts" could be referring to the same lion, leopard and bear that outlived the judgment of Antiochus IV and his Seleucid Empire but will not outlive the judgment of the beast of Revelation 13.

Historically, the lion, leopard and bear way outlived the judgment of the 4th kingdom - and this is why the second fulfillment of the prophecy incorporates all three of those kingdoms (Revelation 11:1-2).

So I believe that they will therefore be judged with the beast of Revelation 13:1-2, as per Revelation 19:11-21. I do not believe Daniel 7:12 is telling us that the rest of the beasts refer to beasts not mentioned either in Daniel 7:3-6, or in Revelation 13:1-2.

The thrones (plural) seen as being thrown up in Daniel 7:9 could be the same as the thrones (plural) of Revelation 20:4, because as you (correctly, I believe) point out, the wording is the same and is found only in these two verses in the Bible:

"I watched, and that horn made war with the saints and overcame them, until the Ancient of Days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the Most High. And the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom. (Daniel 9:21-22).

"And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor his image, nor had received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." (Revelation 20:4).

It's also thrones (plural) being thrown up in Daniel 7:9.

So again, I believe that the saints in the first fulfillment referred to the Maccabees and those who fought with them, but the saints in the second and final fulfillment of the prophecy refer to the saints who follow Christ on white horses in Revelation 19:11-21.

The Great White Throne speaks of only ONE throne, whereas Daniel 7:9 and Revelation 20:4 both speaks of thrones (plural). I do not believe that those over whom the saints will reign with Christ a thousand years refers to "the rest of the beasts" of Daniel 7:12 because as per Revelation 19:14 and Revelation 17:14, the saints will be with Christ when they (the lion, leopard and bear) are judged by Christ with the beast of Revelation 23:1-2.

It's only because Daniel 7:10 mentions the books being opened that I question or consider that the Great White Throne (singular) of Revelation 20:11-15 may be referring to the same (Premillennial) judgment of the beast which incorporates "the rest of the beasts" (the lion, leopard and bear). But I could be wrong. So I'm still just speculating, though I don't believe I'm entirely wrong and I don't believe that you are entirely wrong either.

 

[claninja]

1 Corinthians 15:51 ¶Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.


What would any of this have to do with the great white throne judgment? The context concerning this passage only involves the saved and not the lost as well. Verse 57 undeniably proves that since it would be unreasonable to apply verse 57 to the unsaved who are cast into the LOF. Context matters, right?

Therefore, 1 Corinthians 15:26 hasn't been entirely fulfilled at this point since the great white throne judgment still has to follow these events, regardless when the GWTJ is meaning.

What does the destruction of death in 1 Corinthians 15 have to do with the GWTJ? What do you mean? Death is destroyed at the GWTJ in revelation, no?

 

[claninja]

If Daniel 7:9-11 is involving the thousand years rather than the great white throne judgment, what other position can make sense out of of that if not Premil? Amil can't make sense of that if Daniel 7:9-11 is involving the thousand years since this would mean that Daniel 7:21 has to be applied before the time of the cross rather than a time after the time of the cross. '

Not to mention, there is the matter of the beast being given to the burning flame, and that certainly didn't happen before nor at the cross, keeping in mind that the beast is given to the burning flame at the beginning of the era verses 9-11 is involving, and that Amils have the thousand years beginning 2000 years ago. Of course though, some, or maybe even all Amils, are not going to agree that verses 9-11 are involving the thousand years to begin with, thus making my point moot. But what if Amils are wrong, regardless? And that Daniel 7:9-11 is involving the thousand years? What then?

One more point I would like to raise. It is not reasonable to apply Daniel 7:22 to one era of time, then apply Daniel 7:9-11 to another era of time. Whatever era of time one concludes verse 22 is involving, that same one must apply that era of time to verses 9-11 as well and vice-versa. Unless one can prove verses 21-22 is not an interpretation of verses 9-11. Both, verses 21-22 and verses 9-11, involve the beast prevailing over the saints then an end being made to this. Obviously then, both are involving the same events, the same era. Therefore, how anyone might think they can prove verses 21-22 are not involving what verses 9-11 are involving, is beyond me?

How can vs 9-11 involve the 1,000 years? The thousand years occurs after the beast is destroyed per premil, no?
Wouldn’t vs 18, 22, and 27 fit better with the 1,000 years, after the beast is destroyed?

 

[claninja]

As to the Son of man coming on the clouds, that is meaning before the coming verse 22 is involving, thus these are not the same coming. The former involves a coming pertaining to His ascension. The latter involves a coming pertaining to His return following His ascension, and that verses 9-11 are involving events after He has returned following His ascension. Otherwise, how do we explain the beast being given to the burning flame without it involving Christ having to return following His ascension?

I thought most interpreters agree that the NT sheds light on the OT? Until the NT came along it was not entirely possible to determine from the OT alone, that Christ's coming would involve 3 phases, an initial coming when He was born, another coming after He died and rose, meaning a coming back to heaven, then a coming when He returns. Therefore, in Daniel 7 it is involving the last 2 phases, His ascension followed by His return. During His ascension the beast is prevailing against the saints. Once He returns He puts an end to that altogether. Am I alone around here or something, being able to think outside of the box like this, or are others able to think outside of the box like this as well? Hopefully I'm not alone here. Even though I want to be right about things, I don't want to be the only one who is right about things, though.

There are two comings in Daniel 7.

1.) the son of man coming on the clouds to the ancient of days to receive a kingdom.

2.) the ancient of days coming to take his seat with the courts to make his judgements.

All of this occurs within the context of four sequential gentile kingdoms.