Are there really any parallels between Revelation 20:7-10 and Revelation 19?

[Zao is life]

In the post you were addressing I was going to mention Rev 9:20-21 as well, in order to finish the point I was making. But since that is involving the 6th trumpet rather than the 5th trumpet, I assumed if I did that it would have been contested since Rev 9:20-21 is no longer involving the locusts per the 5th trumpet.

Long ago when I was a kid, not sure if it was in a doctor's consulting room or in school or wherever, but I saw a chart of see-through layers/sheets - a diagram of one human body. The first sheet was the skin, the person we see, but you could see through it to make out the blood vessels and veins, and muscles. If you lifted the first sheet up you could see the muscles and sinews in the next sheet, and the sheet showing the veins and blood vessels, heart, intestines etc under it, and the skeleton's sheet through those sheets. If you lifted up all the other sheets, all that was left was the sheet showing the skeleton. If you let all the sheets drop down again with one layer covering the other, you could see it all. One body in different layers.

Though I don't "know" if there is anything in it, I do notice this in the Revelation with regard to the 5th and 6th trumpets and vials, as though they are not consecutive, but different layers, or sheets showing the same body:

Revelation 9 & 16

16 And the number of the armies of the horsemen was two myriads of myriads. And I heard their number. (Rev 9)

7 And the shapes of the locusts were like horses prepared for battle. And on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were like the faces of men. (Rev 9)

19 For their authority is in their mouth and in their tails. For their tails were like serpents with heads, and with them they do harm. (Rev 9)

10 And they had tails like scorpions, and there were stings in their tails. And their authority was to hurt men five months. (Rev 9)

17 And so I saw the horses in the vision, and those sitting on them, having breastplates of fire, even dusky red and brimstone. And the heads of the horses were like the heads of lions. And out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone. (Rev 9)

13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are spirits of demons, working miracles, which go forth to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that day, the great day of God Almighty. (Rev 16)

2 And it opened the bottomless pit. And there arose a smoke out of the pit, like the smoke of a great furnace. And the sun and air were darkened because of the smoke of the pit.
3 And out of the smoke came forth locusts onto the earth. And authority was given to them, as the scorpions of the earth have authority. (Rev 9)

10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom became darkened. And they gnawed their tongues from the pain.
11 And they blasphemed the God of Heaven because of their pains and their sores. And they did not repent of their deeds. (Rev 16)

20 And the rest of the men who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the works of their hands, that they should not worship demons, and golden, and silver, and bronze, and stone, and wooden idols (which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk). (Rev 9)

9 And they had breastplates like breastplates of iron. And the sound of their wings was like the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
10 And they had tails like scorpions, and there were stings in their tails. And their authority was to hurt men five months.

14 For they are spirits of demons, working miracles, which go forth to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that day, the great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is the one who watches and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. (Rev 16)

11 And they had a king over them, the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in Greek his name is Apollyon.
12 The first woe is past. Behold, after these things yet come two woes. (Rev 9)

John sees one thing first, then another, then another. But are they consecutive, or are they different layers of the same thing, like the layers in the see-through sheets in the diagram of the human body I was talking about?

I don't know.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

You're the one who confesses a person can know now.

Are you just that special?

I don't have any beliefs all to myself the way you do. You seem to think that God reveals some things only to you. That is ridiculous. If you can't understand that, then you probably can't understand anything.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

If those judged in Matt 25 are not flesh, and you agree the judgment occurs at the onset of the millennial kingdom,

I don't agree that "the judgment occurs at the onset of the millennial kingdom". I'm an Amillennialist.

you are effectively arguing that there are 2 judgments of the wicked: one at the beginning of the millennium and another, the GWTJ at the end of it. Please clarify this for me.

I wasn't arguing that since I'm an Amillennialist. I am arguing that there is only one judgment day, not two (or more) as Premils believe. I believe that the kingdom being inherited in Matthew 25:34 is the same kingdom of God that Paul referenced in 1 Cor 15:50 where he indicated that mortal flesh and blood cannot inherit it. And I believe that the "everlasting fire" that the goats are cast into (Matthew 25:41) is the same event as what is referenced in Revelation 20:15.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Let's start from this angle.

Mark 3:24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.

Luke 11:18 If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub.

Next let's look at this in Revelation 9.

Revelation 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

And to them(these locusts that come out of the pit) it was given that they should not kill them(men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads), but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

Next let's factor in the following.

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.


How does--tormenting men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads--equal---to make war with the saints, and to overcome them?

Who said those things are equal? Not me. It is unbelievers who get tormented and believers who get killed. Those things are obviously not the same. I'm not really following your argument so far, but I'll read on.

Why would satan be attacking his own people and tormenting them? Would that not be an example of satan being divided against himself? How does it benefit satan and his kingdom to have men tormented which have not the seal of God in their foreheads? That accomplishes exactly what for satan and his kingdom?

I have already addressed this before but I guess you missed it or forgot. If you continue reading in Revelation 9 it describes the sixth trumpet and plagues and such and it says this:

Revelation 9:20 The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk. 21 Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.

So, those people who were tormented did not repent despite their suffering. What happens when someone suffers but does not repent and does not turn to God for help? They become angry and bitter. Many become angry and bitter towards Christians. That is exactly what Satan wants. He can then take advantage of that and use them to make war with the saints.

Clearly, IMO anyway, what the locusts are being commanded to do and to not do, God is behind the reason why, not satan.

Of course. I don't recall saying otherwise. But, it says their king is Abaddon/Apollyon. So, he clearly rules over them. But, God can use evil spirits and people to do His will sometimes. For example, when the Roman armies destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD. The Roman armies were not Christians. But, they still did God's will as it was God's will to punish the unbelieving Jews and destroy Jerusalem at that time.

Since Revelation 9 is using imagery involving locusts, locusts fall under the category of plagues if involving swarms.

Revelation 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will---which could mean that it is the 2Ws that are commanding the locusts to do what they are to do, torment men which have not the seal of God in their forehead. Right or wrong, at least it sounds more plausible than satan commanding the locusts to do things not beneficial to him. I'm not implying this makes the 2Ws the king over the pit, though.

I can't make sense of what you're saying here. I think you're not understanding that God can use evil beings to do His bidding whether they are aware of that or not.

Plus, nowhere in Revelation 9 does it ever state that the king of the pit is in the pit when the locusts are, and that when the locusts emerge from the pit, so does the king of the pit.

It doesn't have to specifically state that. I believe only doctrinal bias could lead someone to conclude that their king would not even be with them. How can he be their king while not having any access to them? That makes no sense.

How does it make good sense that if satan is the king of the pit, the same pit he is the king of, it manages to imprison him?

This is YOUR way of thinking. You think that the binding of a spirit being renders them to be completely incapacitated. I disagree with that understanding.

That would be like saying the warden of a prison, the prison manages to imprison him in the same manner other prisoners are imprisoned there.

None of this is going to make any sense to you if you continue to insist that being bound in the abyss/bottomless pit means you are not able to do anything at all.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I can accept what you proposed, since that sounds reasonable to me. That aside then.

If the beast is still around after the thousand years, thus Premil is not true, who is it in Revelation 20:7-9 that are supposed to be meaning the beast and false prophet?

They are not specifically mentioned there in that passage. But, just because something isn't mentioned in one passage doesn't mean it can't be related to another passage. Obviously, not all passages about an event contain all the same details.

 

[Trivalee]

I don't agree that "the judgment occurs at the onset of the millennial kingdom". I'm an Amillennialist.


I wasn't arguing that since I'm an Amillennialist. I am arguing that there is only one judgment day, not two (or more) as Premils believe. I believe that the kingdom being inherited in Matthew 25:34 is the same kingdom of God that Paul referenced in 1 Cor 15:50 where he indicated that mortal flesh and blood cannot inherit it. And I believe that the "everlasting fire" that the goats are cast into (Matthew 25:41) is the same event as what is referenced in Revelation 20:15.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. Now that I know you are Amillennialist, I understand where you are coming from.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. Now that I know you are Amillennialist, I understand where you are coming from.

And he is pretty much correct.

 

[Trivalee]

And he is pretty much correct.

On the contrary, he's very much wrong. It's just that I've learned it's no use to try to reason with Amillennialists. They seem to lack the discernment to understand the truth.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Next let's look at this in Revelation 9.

Revelation 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

And to them(these locusts that come out of the pit) it was given that they should not kill them(men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads), but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

Next let's factor in the following.

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.


How does--tormenting men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads--equal---to make war with the saints, and to overcome them?

Why would satan be attacking his own people and tormenting them? Would that not be an example of satan being divided against himself? How does it benefit satan and his kingdom to have men tormented which have not the seal of God in their foreheads? That accomplishes exactly what for satan and his kingdom?

Revelation 9:11

• "And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon."

Actually, Satan is not an Angel, he is a spirit the "messenger" of evil, and Apollyon (or Abaddon) is Satan, that very same spirit and king ruling over the deceived. Satan doesn't give command to Apollyon, because Satan "IS" Apollyon, himself. That word means destruction, and that is the epitome of what he does here. He is the king or ruler of this spiritual army from the abyss, and what he brings is death to these people. This Hebrew word [abaddon] only occurs here in the New Testament and 5 times in the Old Testament (Job 26:6; 28:22; 31:12; Psalm 88:11; Prov 15:11 ) and always relates to death, which this messenger from hell/hades brings to the unfaithful congregation (those in it who are not truly sealed).

Satan's interest is absolutely in attacking the church, and in Revelation 20 when he is loosed God makes that point even more abundantly clear. It's the evil spirit Satan's "whole persona" and reason for existence. He is the absolute quintessential adversary of the church, not the world which is his domain. The world is his own, it's already his kingdom that he's not fighting against because a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand. The word of God encourages us to make our calling and election sure not because Satan has no interest in attacking the church, but because that is his whole character, his entire modus operandi. Satan isn't loosed to attack his own kingdom, but as a judgment upon the unfaithful church, just as in the old Testament Israel, God loosed wicked empires upon Israel as judgment for their rebellions for an example! The fact is, the judgment and apostasy come specifically because Satan is loosed by God upon a rebellious church that will not receive His truth in the love wherewith it was given. Apostasy is a falling away of the church, not a falling away of the world, since the world is already fallen since the fall of man.

2nd Thessalonians 2:9-11

• "Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
• And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
• And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
• That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

The false Christs and false prophets that come to deceive are attacking the church. Now WHO do you think they deceive there? Under the rule of the Apollyon, the great destroyer Satan, they bring the rebellious church to desolation by deceiving those men within it that do not have the seal of God in their foreheads. This is WHY God had to seal his people first through the testimony of two witnesses (Elect Church).

Revelation 7:2-3

• "And I saw another messenger ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four messengers, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
• Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

That's the whole reason Satan was bound in the bottomless pit in the first place, so that he could not go forth deceiving the nations until after the 144,000 of Israel were all sealed (secured) with the Spirit of promise. But once the church has done its job, their testimony finished, then Satan's army of antichrist is loosed as locusts upon the grass. The point being NOT until God has sealed/saved everyone that He intends to save.

For example, those who have not made their calling and election sure (2nd Peter 1:10). God brings this spiritual judgment of delusion upon His Temple because these are those who would not receive the love of truth (2nd Thessalonians 2:12), instead getting their pleasure from unrighteousness. The destroyer comes up against the camp of the saints, the church, where people who have NOT YET BEEN SEALED BY GOD, will believe a lie. The deceived ones are the professed Christians in the church who believe lies coming out of Satan's army of false prophets and Christ in their church!! Selah!

Now what are torments by the locusts upon the unsealed people of the congregation like?

Look at the 10 virgins in Matthew 25 for example. The 10 virgins illustrate God is not talking about people in general, but the church in particular. And the fact that God uses the number 10 illustrates that He is talking about the fullness of the church. Therefore, there are members within the covenant church who are saved, and some who are not truly saved. The 5 virgins with sufficient oil, representing the Holy Spirit, are those truly saved by the Holy Spirit of God who dwells in the church. And those who don't have sufficient oil are the Professing Christians of the church, who are not truly saved.

2nd Timothy 2:20

• "But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour."

There are two types in the external covenant church. Note that "ALL" virgins hear the call that the bridegroom is coming. The call is not that He is here, or look up in the sky, but that He is coming. Both the Elect and the Professed Christians will "know" or "believe" that Christ's coming. It's not a rapture, it's a call that he's on the way. They have to also "go" to meet Him. The ones ready of the Spirit have oil to light their way and they "go" off to meet Him. The other virgins have to go to The Buyers and sellers, which is a synonym for the false prophets of the church, to try and obtain oil. And they spend some time doing this when they have no idea that salvation has ended!! So the parable shows that they will never make it to the wedding, for by the time they believe they have oil to "find" the wedding, the door has already been shut. For example, salvation is over! They are locked outside unable to find entrance. Therefore, they never were truly saved. Revelation also declares that at this appointed time, they "seek to die in the Lord", but death flees from them. The Lord does not know them, and they cannot get into the wedding. The moral of the parable is, "Watch, therefore," because you don't know when Jesus comes. He could have come and locked the door, and the unfaithful knew it not because they were too busy dealing with the buyers and sellers to buy their lies (false doctrines).

Are they doomed? Yes! But doomed to be tormented by the locusts from the pit. How? By desire to die and not be able to die in the Lord. There is no chance of salvation!!!!!

Revelation 9:5-6

• "And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
• And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them."

As incredible as it may seem, God has a magnificent salvation plan, and that plan includes a day of salvation and a day for the end of salvation. An appointed day when all Israel shall have been saved. And not one more will be saved afterward. Those who are not saved by that time, are in deep trouble. They will be thinking that they are saved but salvation has flee from them. This is why God told His people (Elect) to flee from Babylon and not partake of her sin, so they mourned over the church for who she once was and that NO MAN COULD BUY THEIR MERCHANDISE (of Gospel) anymore!

Selah!

So, watch, therefore, for man doesn't know half of what he thinks he knows....

@Spiritual Jew

 

[TribulationSigns]

On the contrary, he's very much wrong.

Not based on Scripture being used to support his position (as well as mine).

It's just that I've learned it's no use to try to reason with Amillennialists.

Just like what the Pharisees and Scribes and their allies thought about Jesus and have him killed. Likewise, Two Witnesses (Truthful witnesses) will be killed (silenced) by those who do not like what they hear.

They seem to lack the discernment to understand the truth.

Actually, it is you who may not understand for it is spiritually discerned.

1Co 2:13-14
(13) Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
(14) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

On the contrary, he's very much wrong. It's just that I've learned it's no use to try to reason with Amillennialists. They seem to lack the discernment to understand the truth.

LOL. And, of course, I feel that way about you and your fellow Premillennialists as well. You do not interpret Revelation 20 in such a way that lines up with the rest of scripture. Simple as that. Other scripture teaches that Christ reigns now, that Satan was bound at the cross, that there is one resurrection day and one judgment day, but Premillennialists ignore all of that.

 

[DavidPT]

that Satan was bound at the cross

What Amils are basically proposing is that the cross was not sufficient in that case, the fact satan doesn't remain bound up until his demise, he is loosed for a season. Which means everything the cross allegedly accomplished in regards to binding satan, are out the window once he is loosed. How can Amils apply the cross to his binding and then still apply the cross to his loosing? IOW, assuming the cross has to do with his binding, what then does the cross have to do with his loosing?

 

[TribulationSigns]

How can Amils apply the cross to his binding and then still apply the cross to his loosing? IOW, assuming the cross has to do with his binding, what then does the cross have to do with his loosing?

Once again, Christ bound Satan as the Cross so that he could build his church. The iniquity of Satan is restrained in the church by God according to His work on the cross, but only until the thousand years are finished and all the children of Israel to be sealed, are sealed.

2nd Thessalonians 2:6-7

• "And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
• For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."

Letteth means restraineth. The mystery is how there has always been iniquity in the church (see the 7 churches of Asia) as there have always been those who were rebellious there, but God has been withholding and retraining them there by His Spirit so that He could build His church. Selah! THAT was the real purpose of Satan being bound!! Not peace in the world! It was so God could call his election from the deceived nations of the world. It was "for this reason" Satan was bound and iniquity restrained.

Revelation 20:3

• "And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season."

And Revelation 20 explains that after the millennial reign of Christ's kingdom on earth, that is to say, after all the election of Israel that God intends to seal has been sealed (Revelation11), then Satan is once again loosed. Because his reason for being bound has been accomplished! At this time God will stop withholding Satan's power of iniquity, loosing it to bring a strong delusion in the church as judgment for their refusing receiving truth. This is the Great Tribulation period! Even as many here won't today. Then God will reveal this mystery to His people who shall Flee out of this spiritual Babylon to the mountains, wherein dwelleth their God. There they watch this "once great city" fall and burn, never to be inhabited by God's people and commerce again

2nd Thessalonians 2:6-11

• "And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
• For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
• And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
• Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
• And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
• And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:"

When that great spiritual city Babylon falls, then shall God's elect mourn for her for a short season before the Lord returns on the clouds of Glory, and His people shall be changed, and shall forever be with Him as the books are opened and the wicked shall be judged.

As the Scripture says so!

 

[DavidPT]

At this time God will stop withholding Satan's power of iniquity, loosing it to bring a strong delusion in the church as judgment for their refusing receiving truth. This is the Great Tribulation period! Even as many here won't today. Then God will reveal this mystery to His people who shall Flee out of this spiritual Babylon to the mountains, wherein dwelleth their God. There they watch this "once great city" fall and burn, never to be inhabited by God's people and commerce again

2nd Thessalonians 2:6-11

• "And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
• For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
• And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
• Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
• And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
• And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:"

When that great spiritual city Babylon falls, then shall God's elect mourn for her for a short season before the Lord returns on the clouds of Glory, and His people shall be changed, and shall forever be with Him as the books are opened and the wicked shall be judged.

As the Scripture says so!

You and I are basically somewhat on the same page in regards to what I quoted. I'm just not convinced that it is meaning satan's little season. There are 2 little seasons recorded in Revelation, and that I tend to think they are not the same little season. One is recorded in Revelation 6 and the 5th seal. The other one is recorded in Revelation 20 after the thousand years. I see the little season pertaining to the 5th seal in Revelation 6 being what I quoted from your post to be involving. Not the little season per Revelation 20. You likely, though I don't know that for certain, take both little seasons to be meaning one and the same, would be my guess.

The saints in Revelation 20:4 who are martyred for not worshiping the beast, nor his image, etc, are clearly martyred during the little season involving the 5th seal in Revelation 6. Which then proves both little seasons can't be one and the same, the fact the saints in Revelation 20:4 are already martyred before the little season after the thousand years ever takes place.

 

[TribulationSigns]

There are 2 little seasons recorded in Revelation, and that I tend to think they are not the same little season.

Both "little season" is speaking of the same period from different perspective. Not two little seasons.

We have our biblical example of the prayers of the saints concerning this. And not surprisingly, it is one of impatience and longing for perfect Justice against those lawless adversaries on earth that corrupt the Church.

Revelation 6:10-11

• "And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
• And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

God comforts the saints who pray to him, and exhort patience. Because before God brings his wrath upon His unfaithful congregation, all must be fulfilled concerning the elect. Thus we can understand how God then symbolizes when the time is right, according to His will, He does bring judgment upon unfaithful congregation avenging His elect who have been crying to Him because of their suffering for the sake of bringing the Word of God faithfully.

Allow me to explain a bit more... I believe that in Revelation 11, the time when the Spirit of Life comes upon Two Witnesses (faithful witnesses - Elect) is the revelation that they should come out of the unfaithful congregation. That's when they start to come out. After 3-1/2 days of being "dormant" (died-silenced) in the Church, they realize Satan is ruling there (as the witness has been killed) and they must come out. Thus I believe that the desolation is the "very hour" that the last saint is removed from that city. Be aware that God did not talk about literal days here. It's not 3 1/2 literal days so it's after these days, and when all have come out, that exact hour is the fall of the church right prior to Second Coming. Again...

Revelation 6:911

• "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
• And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
• And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

When all are killed, then and only then will the saints come out, and God bring that city (unfaithful congregation) to desolation. For the city's purpose will have been completed. All who were to be saved by it will have been saved by it.

In other words, God is patient, not willing that any should perish, but that all should have time to come to repentance. I liken Revelation 11 to the parable of the 10 virgins, thus the external Covenant Kingdom representation. While both wise virgins (Elect) and foolish virgins (professed Christian) sleep (a symbol of death), The "call" comes arousing them to wake and revealing to them that the bridegroom is on his way. Five are ready and go to meet the bridegroom, and five are foolish or not ready and dilly-dally seeking the spirit of light. For example, there is time involved here, and timing is everything. Those who go to the buyers and selling (need to have the mark of the beast in order to buy and sell - hint hint, Revelation 13) seeking oil are not going to make it out in time. They are the external Covenant Church (professed Christians) that doesn't have the spirit of light to recognize the time to depart. However, that very hour that the very last true saint departs, is the fall of the city of Jerusalem, spiritually Sodom. And they stand far off viewing her burning.

The short season is a period of time when Satan is loosed and attack church and brought her to desolation. Thus we have to be patience and wait until the short season (another word for "time of the Gentiles") when God will loosen Satan and use him as a tool of judgment upon His unfaithful congregation (Babylon the Great), after this Christ will return.

One is recorded in Revelation 6 and the 5th seal. The other one is recorded in Revelation 20 after the thousand years. I see the little season pertaining to the 5th seal in Revelation 6 being what I quoted from your post to be involving. Not the little season per Revelation 20. You likely, though I don't know that for certain, take both little seasons to be meaning one and the same, would be my guess.

They both are indeed speaking about the SAME period. The little season starts with the loosening of Satan when he will come into the church to deceive people to silence the truthful testimony of Two Witnesses where they will be "dead" in the city for 3-1/2 days (not literal period of time). Once all and last of brethren are killed God will finally judge the unfaithful church for one hour (not literal period of time) right before Christ's return. This is when little season ends.

The saints in Revelation 20:4 who are martyred for not worshiping the beast, nor his image, etc, are clearly martyred during the little season involving the 5th seal in Revelation 6. Which then proves both little seasons can't be one and the same, the fact the saints in Revelation 20:4 are already martyred before the little season after the thousand years ever takes place.

See, the saints in Revelation 20:4 are Christians who are ALREADY PHYSICALLY DIED and their souls went up to the altar in heaven! When they see that the testimony of Two Witnesses on earth is finished yet Christ has not yet returned and Satan was loosened. They will protest and cry to God, "HOW LONG before you will do something to avenge their blood." God told them to wait a little longer - a little season - until Satan will have ALL the reminding saints on Earth also killed as they were then He will finally judge his unfaithful church on our behalf.

What many people don't understand is that the word, "martyred" does not always means physically killed. Yes, we have a history of Christians being killed, whether by war, religious persecution, political persecution, car accident, animal attack, etc. etc. But many Christians are martyred because they are hated by their enemies even if they never have been physically killed by anything but died of old age. Hate is murder for their faithful testimony as we all experienced as Christians. In God's eyes, we, Christians, are all killed because of hatred or physically killed for our testimony, yet we all are martyrs. Remember, we Christians all shared the SAME TRIBULATION AND TRAILS since Pentecost, but the "little season" is the GREAT tribulation - the same kind of tribulation that killed our brethren before us. Selah !

 

[DavidPT]

They both are indeed speaking about the SAME period. The little season starts with the loosening of Satan when he will come into the church to deceive people to silence the truthful testimony of Two Witnesses where they will be "dead" in the city for 3-1/2 days (not literal period of time). Once all and last of brethren are killed God will finally judge the unfaithful church for one hour (not literal period of time) right before Christ's return. This is when little season ends.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


It's real simple, IMO. The 6th seal is involving the wrath of God, the day of the Lord, which also involves the 2nd coming of Christ. And what does Matthew 24 record that precedes the 6th seal? Is it not great tribulation? Therefore, per the 5th seal, when martyrs, such as John the Baptist, Stephen, to name a few, are crying out for vengeance then being told to rest yet a little season, they are crying out when great tribulation(Matthew 24:15-26) is initially beginning on the earth below. IOW, they are crying out for vengeance in the final days of this age, since that is what great tribulation, the 42 month reign of the beast, will be involving.

Therefore, the little season they are told to rest is in order to fulfill the martyrdom of saints during great tribulation back on earth. Which then involves the 42 month reign of the beast, for one. And what does the 42 month reign of the beast involve? The same things the following involves---and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands(Revelation 20:4)

It is not reasonable if Scripture is supposed to interpret Scripture, to then take what I just submitted from Revelation 20:4 to not be involving anything recorded in Revelation 13. If nothing in Revelation 13 supports the following---and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands--what does? Every single reason why these are martyred match 100% with what is recorded in Revelation 13. That can't be a coincidence.

Which means the little season recorded in Revelation 6 can't be the same little season recorded in Revelation 20. Therefore, the correct conclusion to arrive at is as follows. These in Revelation 20:4---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands---are martyred during the little season involving the 5th seal. They are martyred during great tribulation. They are martyred during the 42 month reign of the beast.

And what follows the 42 month reign of the beast? The 6th seal events, which involve the 7 vials of wrath and the 2nd coming. Which means the thousand years are after the 2nd coming not prior to them. Which means satan's little season has zero to do with the 42 month reign of the beast, great tribulation, or anything recorded in 2 Thessalonians 2. All of those things are involving the little season recorded in Revelation 6 and the 5th seal. Nothing pertaining to satan's little season after the thousand years could possibly be involving the 5th seal. And the martyrs recorded in Revelation 20:4, which don't worship the beast during it's 42 month reign, proves it.

 

[keras]

. The 6th seal is involving the wrath of God, the day of the Lord, which also involves the 2nd coming of Christ.

The wrath of God is over before Jesus Returns. Revelation 15:1
Why do you find it necessary to rearrange Revelation?

The Prophecy of 1 Thess 5:2-3 is how it will be; very soon. Destruction will strike suddenly and unexpectedly upon all the Islamic peoples who attempt to destroy Israel. As Psalms 83 and many other Prophesies describe. it will commence at the end time things; just as set out in Revelation.

 

[DavidPT]

The wrath of God is over before Jesus Returns. Revelation 15:1
Why do you find it necessary to rearrange Revelation?

The Prophecy of 1 Thess 5:2-3 is how it will be; very soon. Destruction will strike suddenly and unexpectedly upon all the Islamic peoples who attempt to destroy Israel. As Psalms 83 and many other Prophesies describe. it will commence at the end time things; just as set out in Revelation.

Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


You do not take any of this to be involving His wrath, thus He can just destroy them all without being wrathful about it? Does not it say the coming of the Son of man, not only once, but twice in those verses? Are you going to argue like Preterists typically argue, that a literal bodily coming is not meant here?

 

[TribulationSigns]

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


It's real simple, IMO. The 6th seal is involving the wrath of God, the day of the Lord, which also involves the 2nd coming of Christ. And what does Matthew 24 record that precedes the 6th seal? Is it not great tribulation?

1.) The fifth seal is at the end of 1,260 days of faithful testimony when the souls cried to God, "How Long"...
2.) Then the short season is the Great Tribulation where the Saints are still in the city being killed for 3-1/2 symbolic days.
3.) The sixth seal is the wrath and judgment of God upon the unfaithful congregation when He commanded His Saints to come out of her when they "see" the abomination of desolation. This is the "One Hour" of judgment until Second Coming.

Rev 18:8-10
(8) Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
(9) And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
(10) Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

Only the Saints knew that God's judgment has come upon unfaithful congregaiton, Babylon. Which is why they prophesied:

Rev 6:15-17
(15) And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
(16) And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
(17) For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The kings of the earth, great men, rich men, chief captains, mighty men, bondman, every free man IN CHRIST are the chosen Saints. They flee to Christ (den and rock) asking for protection knowing that His wrath has come upon the unfaithful congregation where the professed Christians remain because they do not know the time of his judgment. They will deny there is anything wrong with their church as they watch the Saints leaving. That is why they prophesy that the one hour of judgment upon unfaithful congregation (not second coming yet) has come. After the judgment of God's house is finished, then Christ will return and receive all His people in the air and judge the world. That is why God judges His House and His people FIRST prior to Second Coming, then the world at the second coming.




Real simple, indeed!

 

[DavidPT]

1.) The fifth seal is at the end of 1,260 days of faithful testimony when the souls cried to God, "How Long"...
2.) Then the short season is the Great Tribulation where the Saints are still in the city being killed for 3-1/2 symbolic days.
3.) The sixth seal is the wrath and judgment of God upon the unfaithful congregation when He commanded His Saints to come out of her when they "see" the abomination of desolation. This is the "One Hour" of judgment until Second Coming.

Rev 18:8-10
(8) Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
(9) And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
(10) Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

Only the Saints knew that God's judgment has come upon unfaithful congregaiton, Babylon. Which is why they prophesied:

Rev 6:15-17
(15) And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
(16) And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
(17) For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The kings of the earth, great men, rich men, chief captains, mighty men, bondman, every free man IN CHRIST are the chosen Saints. They flee to Christ (den and rock) asking for protection knowing that His wrath has come upon the unfaithful congregation where the professed Christians remain because they do not know the time of his judgment. They will deny there is anything wrong with their church as they watch the Saints leaving. That is why they prophesy that the one hour of judgment upon unfaithful congregation (not second coming yet) has come. After the judgment of God's house is finished, then Christ will return and receive all His people in the air and judge the world. That is why God judges His House and His people FIRST prior to Second Coming, then the world at the second coming.




Real simple, indeed!

I don't see us being too far apart here, either. Except none of this actually solves what I brought up in prior posts in regards to Revelation 20:4 and Revelation 13, unfortunately.

Look what you, and other Amils like yourself, need to do, in order to make it appear that your Amil view is valid. First you have to dismiss entirely---and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands(Revelation 20:4)---that this is undeniably involving Revelation 13 and the 42 month reign of the beast, by then pretending it is Revelation 20:7-9 that is involving Revelation 13 and the 42 month reign of the beast instead.

If Amil is the correct view, it should also work with---and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands(Revelation 20:4)---and that that is involving Revelation 13 and the 42 month reign of the beast. Good luck making Amil compatible with that scenario.

No wonder some Amils need to dismiss the connection between--and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands(Revelation 20:4)---and that of Revelation 13 and the 42 month reign of the beast, then pretend it is Revelation 20:7-9 that is involving Revelation 13 and the 42 month reign of the beast instead. That's the only way you can make it appear to some that your view is valid. Except it's not working with some of the rest of us. We can easily see that your view is contradicting Revelation 20:4 and it's direct involvement with Revelation 13 and the 42 month reign of the beast.