Are there limits to what healing we can receive?

[Presbyterian Continuist]

But you won't say the same regarding salvation correct?

Even if there is those carnality as you described happening in churches, unbelievers believing the gospel are still going to get saved.

So why is healing different, if healing is also part of the atonement at the cross?

Because there are direct promises that when a person believes in Christ they are saved. But there are no direct promises in the New Testament that a person will automatically be healed as the result of prayer.

So instead of coming up with questions, have search through the New Testament and come up with any direct promises of automatic instant healing available to believers through prayer. Of course Peter and Paul performed healing miracles, but then they were Apostles of Christ where signs and wonders were part of the criteria, and so they were set apart from other believers.

 

[ARBITER01]

My view is that in spite of there being gifts of healing available to the Church, no one seems to be manifesting them. People can give all sorts of excuses, but realistically, the Holy Spirit has not seen anyone whom He can trust with these gifts. Of course it is easy for people to say, "I don't have that particular calling", and it is obvious that if they did have the gift, then people would be routinely healed under their ministry. But what we have is those who claim to have the ministry can't heal even a flea with the headache, and most of these have been discredited as frauds because they can't back up their claims.

So the question is: Why is the Holy Spirit keeping the healing gifts back from the Church at this time? That is the reality, and no one on this thread seems to be able to come up with the answer.

I told you and others on here several times why they are not working, people just want to think their filling of The Spirit was all they needed.

And it's not GOD holding back anything Oscarr, it's people not wanting more than they already have.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I told you and others on here several times why they are not working, people just want to think their filling of The Spirit was all they needed.

And it's not GOD holding back anything Oscarr, it's people not wanting more than they already have.

In a video, John MacArthur said that He would love to have the gift of healing so he could go into the children's cancer ward and get all those children totally healed by the power of God. If a professed cessationist like him could say that, I am guessing that most Pentecostals and Charismatics who firmly believe in the healing gifts for today, would also love to have that gift so they could bring relief to sick and suffering people. Anyone with any compassion would have seen Stephen Hawkins totally incapacitated in his wheelchair having to speak through a machine, and desired that God would give someone the gift of healing so they could have ministered to him to show that God is real and that Jesus is really alive. Just think that if someone like Stephen Hawkins had been totally healed and become a committed Christian believers, what a tremendous testimony for Christ that would have been.

To say that believers don't want the gifts is not recognising that most continuous believers desire the gifts with all their hearts, but in spite of their desire, prayers, and seeking God, it is not happening in most cases. I personally don't think it is the fault of individual believers at all.

In the Old Testament, God promises health and healing for His people as long as they remained faithful to Him and did all that He commanded. And while that was so, no one got sick. But when they walked away from God into idolatry, that's when sickness started to come in. Paul told the Corinthians that the reason why some of the were weak and sick and died prematurely was that they were not discerning the body and blood of the Lord. What I get from that is that because the body and blood of the Lord are integral to the Gospel of Christ, what it meant that people in that church had departed from the sound doctrine of the Gospel and were going into fables. So I can understand where churches have departed from the Gospel and have gone into Post Modern liberalism, Progressive Christianity, Prosperity preaching, and New Age mysticism, the gifts of healing cannot be manifested in them, so people get sick and die prematurely.

So there is no reason to doubt that if a church remains securely based on the sound doctrine of the Gospel and a firm believe in contrinuism, the gifts of the Spirit including healing and miracles shouldn't occur on a frequent basis.

But there is the question: When the Lord comes, shall He find faith on the earth?" That is the question.

 

[Guojing]

Because there are direct promises that when a person believes in Christ they are saved. But there are no direct promises in the New Testament that a person will automatically be healed as the result of prayer.

That might be true. But if carnality does not affect salvation, why should it affect healing?

Are you reasoning that, since direct promises are given for salvation, carnality of churches/believers will not affect it.

But because none were given for healing, therefore carnality can affect it?

That reasoning does not seem logical, i.e its non sequitur

 

[ARBITER01]

So there is no reason to doubt that if a church remains securely based on the sound doctrine of the Gospel and a firm believe in contrinuism, the gifts of the Spirit including healing and miracles shouldn't occur on a frequent basis.

Pay attention Oscarr,...

- There are 3 power gifts, the gifts of healings, the working of miracles, and the gift of faith. All 3 require The Holy Spirit to operate them since we are not allowed to control GOD's power.

- For The Holy Spirit to operate them requires that He rest upon us in power.

- For Him to rest upon us in power requires that we receive an anointing upon our head from GOD.

- To receive that anointing requires that we go through some trials and our own sort of wilderness with GOD.

Without having any of these things in a person's life, the gifts of healings will not operate on any sort of regular, instantaneous basis in any church.

That is the truth, take it or leave it.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

In a video, John MacArthur said that He would love to have the gift of healing so he could go into the children's cancer ward and get all those children totally healed by the power of God.

I'd expect a bible scholar like MacArthur to know that's not how the gifts work. You've raised this point a few times here and it's been refuted every time. Not even Jesus went to leper colonies and cleaned them out. It's sounding more and more like you are likely in the wrong forum friend. Especially if you are using one of the most hard core cessationists to make your point. It would explain why you are carrying on the way you are.

 

[Carl Emerson]

For what it is worth I have seen quite a bit of healing through prayer and consider it a privilege to be involved with what God does.

Would there be more healing if believers rediscovered the importance of biblical unity - Yes of course.

In the mean time, I could ask why I have had seen many prayers answered in this way.

My guess is because I was reduced to zero and rebuilt by Him so somehow became malleable in His hand.

Yet there is a harvest out there and folks suffering in the domain of darkness who Jesus would touch if only there were more workers.

Start by praying for your immediate neighbours. If someone is sick offer to pray for them. You'll be surprised how many agree.

The results are up to Him not us. Take this simple step and see what happens. Never guarantee a healing or be put off by a low hit rate.

Keep it simple - ask Him to create the right opportunities.

I am happy to share what I have learned, God will equip you for the task if you are willing to step out.

Never forget that it is His work and we just go along for the ride.

Who knows, you might have a mini awakening on your hands as folks are introduced to Jesus by the Holy Spirit and His Father, Yahweh-Rapha - the Lord who heals.

You see at judgement you wont be able to say the church didn't do this or that - what you did will be the focus.

 

[Always in His Presence]

It was just a matter of time before someone decided to attack my personal credibility and accuse me of being cessationist.

Because your post sound like it. It is not a personal attack, but after the third time of you saying healing doesn’t happen todays, one has to wonder.

 

[Always in His Presence]

N

 

[Always in His Presence]

Spirit-Filled, Pentecostal and/or Charismatic believers can be from ANY Christian Denomination. They are those who believe that all the various spiritual gifts (or charisms) listed in the New Testament (including but not limited to the manifestations gifts found in I Corinthians 12:8-10) are active in the Church today and desirable in the life of the individual believer, for the edification of the Body of Christ.
It is not a requirement that the individual exercises/exhibits any specific spiritual gift(s).

So the question is: Why is the Holy Spirit keeping the healing gifts back from the Church at this time? That is the reality, and no one on this thread seems to be able to come up with the answer.

Because in this forum we believe the gifts are active. They have not ceased, nor are being held back.

 

[tturt]

As far as praising and worshiping Him, then being healed is in Scripture. The 10 lepers in Luk 17 were healed as they went to the priests - there's no indication of how long that took. Then when the one returned to Jesus to give thanks to Him, Jesus made that leper whole.

Also, in Mark 8, when Jesus touched the blind man twice, believe the first time was for spiritual healing then physically healed. -Because Jesus had just said "Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember?" Mark 8:18

"And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod. "And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have no bread. 17 And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened?"

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

That might be true. But if carnality does not affect salvation, why should it affect healing?

Are you reasoning that, since direct promises are given for salvation, carnality of churches/believers will not affect it.

But because none were given for healing, therefore carnality can affect it?

That reasoning does not seem logical, i.e its non sequitur

The fact remains: There seems to be a disparity between interpretation of Scripture that supports routine healing through prayer, and the healing not happening. Until the disparity is resolved, all there remains is just empty talk.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Pay attention Oscarr,...

- There are 3 power gifts, the gifts of healings, the working of miracles, and the gift of faith. All 3 require The Holy Spirit to operate them since we are not allowed to control GOD's power.

- For The Holy Spirit to operate them requires that He rest upon us in power.

- For Him to rest upon us in power requires that we receive an anointing upon our head from GOD.

- To receive that anointing requires that we go through some trials and our own sort of wilderness with GOD.

Without having any of these things in a person's life, the gifts of healings will not operate on any sort of regular, instantaneous basis in any church.

That is the truth, take it or leave it.

If you read my posts, all I am saying all along is that all the lights are on but no one is home. There is no doubt that everything you are saying is quite correct, that is not the problem. It is the lack of outcome, and so there must be a reason for it Even when a believer has all his ducks in a row concerning commitment to Christ and personal holiness, still nothing is happening. It is as if the Holy Spirit is deciding not to heal even the most believing of people. There must be a reason for it. The answer might be very simple and obvious but somehow people are missing it.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I'd expect a bible scholar like MacArthur to know that's not how the gifts work. You've raised this point a few times here and it's been refuted every time. Not even Jesus went to leper colonies and cleaned them out. It's sounding more and more like you are likely in the wrong forum friend. Especially if you are using one of the most hard core cessationists to make your point. It would explain why you are carrying on the way you are.

All I am saying that in spite of all the talk, teaching, motivational preaching to increase people's faith, nothing is working. This is not about me. I'm just the whistle blower. The so called healing ministry is nothing but talk. Why is that?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Because your post sound like it. It is not a personal attack, but after the third time of you saying healing doesn’t happen todays, one has to wonder.

What I am saying is that we need to rethink the healing ministry which is not working at present, and to set ourselves seeking the Lord through prayer and searching the Word to find out why. Firstly we need to first stop kidding ourselves that it is working, admit that it is not working, and that will be the starting point to find out why the Holy Spirit is not coming to the party.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Because in this forum we believe the gifts are active. They have not ceased, nor are being held back.

I know that you are saying that, but the evidence contradicts it. If the gifts have not ceased, which I believe they have not, then we need to press into God and find out from Him why the gifts are, in the main, being held back. Even many Pentecostal churches have stopped using the gifts in their Sunday services in the same way they used to in the early to mid 20th Century. I think we need to stop flogging the dead horse, and to give some thought and prayer to find out why it died.

 

[Always in His Presence]

What I am saying is that we need to rethink the healing ministry which is not working at present,

We believe the Charisms - all of them including healing and miracles are active in the church today - they have not ceased, nor are they being withheld.

No matter what personal opinions are - or what the most prolific cessasionist like MacArthur say.

That is our SOP,

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

We believe the Charisms - all of them including healing and miracles are active in the church today - they have not ceased, nor are they being withheld.

No matter what personal opinions are - or what the most prolific cessasionist like MacArthur say.

That is our SOP,

Okay. I have said my piece. It is not about Cessationism or Continuism. It is the obvious fact that the Holy Spirit is not healing people.

 

[ARBITER01]

If you read my posts, all I am saying all along is that all the lights are on but no one is home. There is no doubt that everything you are saying is quite correct, that is not the problem. It is the lack of outcome, and so there must be a reason for it Even when a believer has all his ducks in a row concerning commitment to Christ and personal holiness, still nothing is happening. It is as if the Holy Spirit is deciding not to heal even the most believing of people. There must be a reason for it. The answer might be very simple and obvious but somehow people are missing it.

Again, it's not GOD, it's the people.

How many people know they need to seek something from GOD beyond getting filled with The Spirit and having the gifts? None of them. How many of them know anything really about the anointing? None of them. They think it is something floating around in the atmosphere waiting to attack one of them every so often. People have written books on the subject that never tell you what it is, because they don't know themselves.

It's a complete lack of knowledge on the subject, and a complete lack of desire to know anything about it either. So we get what we have currently.

If you don't ask you won't receive. If you don't seek you won't find.

People are too tied up with church activities instead of drawing close to The Lord. Time is the enemy of holiness.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

People are too tied up with church activities instead of drawing close to The Lord.

Bingo!

Man tries to do it their own way, and their own way says I need more church programs and events that will bring people into the house of God. The problem with that approach is when the people stop being entertained they either vote out the current leadership or they leave the church for the next thing.

The power of God is what gets people to stay, nothing can replace it or replicate it.

Instead of more programs and events, churches (in my opinion) should hold more prayer meetings and have time to corporately seek the Lord and His power/blessing.