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Are there limits to what healing we can receive?

jiminpa

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When you say, "it will work", do you mean,
you're doubting that God can heal?
you're doubting that he will bring you the healing that you want?
you're doubting that the Bible verses and/or formulas that you've been told to repeat will have any effect?
I did get WoF teaching early in my walk with God, but it didn't take long for me to notice the flaws in that teaching, but I also see truth in some of it. You assume that I am just the product of teachings. I learned the reliability of scripture before I met God, which was a key to me meeting Him. I have always compared teaching to scripture. My doubt has come from multiple problems in my self. It came down to seeing too much of my own faults and too much focus on the behavioral parts of scripture, yielding the believe that things depended more on my actions than they do. That and too much reaching for religious holiness. But none of that negates the truth of what the Bible says.

I understand that nothing I post will sway you, so I am only responding to some of your questions.
 
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Strong in Him

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That is contradictory - you know Jesus couldn't do because of unbelief - but you also know God's power is not limited by our beliefs (thoughts and ability to respond) - that makes no sense.

No, I said that I know the Gospels say that Jesus couldn't heal due to unbelief.
There was a reason they said that: maybe that's how they perceived it? Maybe they thought he only healed in response to faith? Maybe that's how it was - although in one passage Mark says "he could not do any miracles there, except ...... heal a few. He was amazed at their unbelief.", Mark 6:5-6. So even with a lack of faith, Jesus still healed some people.
I have not studied this in depth so I cannot say why the Gospel writers said what they did.

Question:

Can Jesus lie?

Of course not.
But he doesn't say, anywhere, "you will always be healed when you pray". So he is not lying.

If no, then His word is plainly stated:

Mark 16:15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.

That's what he said to the 11 disciples who were taking this new Gospel out into the world, yes.
Signs and wonders would validate and confirm their teaching. Peter said that Jesus was confirmed to be the Son of God by the things he did, Acts of the Apostles 2:22, and Jesus himself said, if you don't believe my words; believe because of the things that I do, John 10:38.

That verse - which was not in the early manuscripts by the way - does not say, or mean, that everyone who wants healing will get it.

I believe Jesus. Beyond what I see, feel or experience, I believe He is truth.

Yes, he is.
Did Jesus say that when you pray for healing; if your symptoms remain, ignore them because you have been healed? That no matter what you feel after prayer, even if you are half dead, you have been healed?

Jesus said:
John 15: 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.​

You've just said that Jesus is truth (correct) and you believe him.
So why do Christians pray today for healing and not all receive it?
Why did David Watson receive much pray - even from John Wimber, who declared the root of his cancer to be cut - and he still died?
Why is Joni still in a wheelchair, after also receiving much prayer and having told the doctors that God would heal her? It's possible the doctors either dismissed her as being deluded, or concluded that her God lied.

If Jesus had said that all Christians everywhere would always receive healing when they prayed, then they would - whether immediate or gradual.

Because, he does not lie.

Even though this point is still being ignored - there is not one time in the Gospels and Epistles where someone came to Jesus, the 12 or the 70 others for healing and were told no, it is not God's will, you will be healed in heaven or anything else. But everyone received healing in their bodies.

I did not ignore that point.
I said that Jesus healed when he was on earth because he was showing people that God was real and he loved them. He was also showing people what life would be like in God's kingdom.

Of course Jesus can heal today. But we do not, or should not, need dramatic miracles before we believe. We have the whole Bible, the Holy Spirit, the testimonies of many and so on.
Some Christians today pray for physical healing and do not receive it - fact. They still trust God, but do not see their prayers answered in this life.
 
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Always in His Presence

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That's what he said to the 11 disciples who were taking this new Gospel out into the world, yes.

"These signs will follow those who believe" - that is not just the 11.
 
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Always in His Presence

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If Jesus had said that all Christians everywhere would always receive healing when they prayed, then they would - whether immediate or gradual.

He did.
 
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Always in His Presence

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Of course Jesus can heal today. But we do not, or should not, need dramatic miracles before we believe.

You are conflating issues - but let me remind you that Paul said this to the church at Corinth:

1 Cor 2: 4 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God
 
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Always in His Presence

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You've just said that Jesus is truth (correct) and you believe him.

So why do Christians pray today for healing and not all receive it?

Why did David Watson receive much pray - even from John Wimber, who declared the root of his cancer to be cut - and he still died?
Why is Joni still in a wheelchair, after also receiving much prayer and having told the doctors that God would heal her? It's possible the doctors either dismissed her as being deluded, or concluded that her God lied.

I don't have a clue who David Watson is and once again - I don't judge God's word by humankind being able to make it happen. I judge God's word by His Word and His actions.

I have asked a number of times for scripture to prove your position and you have given me everything but.

I know this:

  • Jesus suffered and died for my sins and my sicknesses
  • Jesus took stripes on His back for my healing
  • The Psalmist said not to forget all his benefits - who forgives all your sins and who heals all your diseases
  • I know that scripture tells un in Matthews Gospel that Jesus healed all as a fulfilment of Isa 53:4,5
  • I know that EVERYONE who came and asked Jesus and/or the disciples were healed and never told no or wait.
  • I know that Jesus Himself said that the proof He had power on earth to forgive was healing (Luke 5)
  • I know that Paul was not sick
  • I know that the same Spirit that raised Christ from the graves lives in us to quicken (heal) our mortal bodies.
  • I know that the one time Jesus was asked about His will to heal - He answered it was.
  • I know that Jesus redeemed us from the curse of the law (sickness) having been made a curse for us.
  • I know the majority of His healings were provoked by His compassion and He has not changed.
I know these truths. What someone does or does not do is superfluous and holds no bearing on the truth of the Word of God.
 
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Strong in Him

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Then we should all receive it.

Jesus said "whoever believes in me, has eternal life", John 3:16, John 6:53.
And, "it is God's will that whoever believes in me has eternal life", John 6:40

How many people who, today, believe in, accept Jesus and declare him as Lord, Romans 10:9, have eternal life?
Everyone.
100%
I have never heard of anyone who has repented, believed in and accepted Jesus say they are not saved or belong to him. They may have been expecting to FEEL something and may not FEEL saved - but they are. Because Jesus said so.
You claim that Jesus promised physical healing to all - yet some of his children who pray, beg, confess and claim their healing, are not healed.
Fact.
 
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Strong in Him

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You are conflating issues -

No, I'm not.
The late John Stott said that while we can never tell God what to do or claim that he can't do it today; in the NT, miracles were performed to authenticate new teaching.
Like I said, Peter said that Jesus was accredited among them by the miracles that he did. Jesus said, believe in me because of my miracles.
 
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Always in His Presence

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No, I said that I know the Gospels say that Jesus couldn't heal due to unbelief.

Right - so why would it be any different today? Why wouldn't unbelief still be a cause?

But he doesn't say, anywhere, "you will always be healed when you pray". So he is not lying.

He also did NOT say only some would be healed - He also did not say healing is for only certain people - He also did not say healing was not His will - and He never said no to someone who asked for healing.

That's what he said to the 11 disciples who were taking this new Gospel out into the world, yes.
Signs and wonders would validate and confirm their teaching. Peter said that Jesus was confirmed to be the Son of God by the things he did, Acts of the Apostles 2:22, and Jesus himself said, if you don't believe my words; believe because of the things that I do, John 10:38.

That verse - which was not in the early manuscripts by the way - does not say, or mean, that everyone who wants healing will get it.

The verse was not in the codex A because it was literally missing that part of the scroll - it also did not say that some would not be healed - your reasoning cuts both ways.

Did Jesus say that when you pray for healing; if your symptoms remain, ignore them because you have been healed? That no matter what you feel after prayer, even if you are half dead, you have been healed?

I never said anyone did, yet this seems to be stuck in your mind. Not sure why - but I have never preached, read or taught it.

How's that?
 
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Always in His Presence

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No, I'm not.
The late John Stott said that while we can never tell God what to do or claim that he can't do it today; in the NT, miracles were performed to authenticate new teaching.
Like I said, Peter said that Jesus was accredited among them by the miracles that he did. Jesus said, believe in me because of my miracles.

Who is the late John Stott? Why should I believe him?

Peter also said:

1 Peter 2:24 who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed.​
 
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Strong in Him

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I don't have a clue who David Watson is and once again - I don't judge God's word by humankind being able to make it happen. I judge God's word by His Word and His actions.

David Watson was a British, but international, evangelist and author of several books.
When he was diagnosed with cancer, hundreds of people visited, wrote to and prayed for him.

My point is that if God says something, it is ALWAYS true and we should see the truth of it in our experience.
A Christian claims, "God will heal me because Jesus has promised physical healing to all" - yet they are not healed. Are they mistaken in what they thought God said, or was he lying?

Look at it another way; a Muslim says to you, "I will pray to Allah, he WILL heal you and then you will know that he is real and the true God". He prays and you are not healed.
Isn't it likely that you would then say, "he did not answer your prayer because he is not the true God"?
What did Elijah say on Mt Carmel?
The false prophets believed that Baal controlled the weather; rain, fire, storms etc; Elijah said that God did.
He set up a challenge - basically said, I'll prove it to you. "The one who answers by fire is the true God."

If Jesus has promised physical healing then we should be seeing it in our experience today - always.

I will answer the rest of your post tomorrow - hopefully.
 
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jiminpa

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David Watson was a British, but international, evangelist and author of several books.
When he was diagnosed with cancer, hundreds of people visited, wrote to and prayed for him.

My point is that if God says something, it is ALWAYS true and we should see the truth of it in our experience.
A Christian claims, "God will heal me because Jesus has promised physical healing to all" - yet they are not healed. Are they mistaken in what they thought God said, or was he lying?

Look at it another way; a Muslim says to you, "I will pray to Allah, he WILL heal you and then you will know that he is real and the true God". He prays and you are not healed.
Isn't it likely that you would then say, "he did not answer your prayer because he is not the true God"?
What did Elijah say on Mt Carmel?
The false prophets believed that Baal controlled the weather; rain, fire, storms etc; Elijah said that God did.
He set up a challenge - basically said, I'll prove it to you. "The one who answers by fire is the true God."

If Jesus has promised physical healing then we should be seeing it in our experience today - always.

I will answer the rest of your post tomorrow - hopefully.
Every argument you make is that experience is more authoritative than God's word. It's the same one cessationists make, while falsely claiming that Spirit-filled believers are the ones relying on experiences over scripture.
 
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David Watson was a British, but international, evangelist and author of several books.
When he was diagnosed with cancer, hundreds of people visited, wrote to and prayed for him.

That is sad, but has no bearing on the truth in the Word of God.

My point is that if God says something, it is ALWAYS true and we should see the truth of it in our experience.

That is not scriptural - it is experiential. While I appreciate your opinion, in my opinion, it is not valid because it is based on human actions, not God's word.

Thanks, I think we hit an impasse - if you would like, I opened a teaching thread on the subject, perhaps you will find it interesting.
 
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lismore

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Trying to find a topic that we can amicably disagree on, hopefully this is it.

Judging on past experience in this forum I don't think this topic will be the one!

But in my times and pentecostal/ charismatic circles there are a lot of folks around who are seeking and needing physical healing and a lot of views on why many of them don't seem to receive it.

God Bless :)
 
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Guojing

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True - but Matthew did in his Gospel and Peter did in his epistle.

BTW - it isn't a WOF passage - it is scripture.

But who specifically stated that he is the apostle of the gentiles? (Romans 11:13)
 
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Guojing

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That is contradictory - you know Jesus couldn't do because of unbelief - but you also know God's power is not limited by our beliefs (thoughts and ability to respond) - that makes no sense.

Question:

Can Jesus lie?

If no, then His word is plainly stated:

Mark 16:15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.
I believe Jesus. Beyond what I see, feel or experience, I believe He is truth.

Jesus said:
John 15: 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.​

I believe Jesus

Jesus said:
Mark 11:22 So Jesus answered and said to them, “Have faith in God. 23 For assuredly, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, ‘Be removed and be cast into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that those things he says will be done, he will have whatever he says. 24 Therefore I say to you, whatever things you ask when you pray, believe that you receive them, and you will have them.
I believe Jesus

Even though this point is still being ignored - there is not one time in the Gospels and Epistles where someone came to Jesus, the 12 or the 70 others for healing and were told no, it is not God's will, you will be healed in heaven or anything else. But everyone received healing in their bodies.

But was Jesus speaking to you in his first coming? (Matthew 15:24)

That is the real question you should be asking.

Like the scenario I posed to another, if you happen to meet someone who wants to believe that a statement like Genesis 15:5 is directed to him, and wants to believe that, by faith, he can also be "the father of many nations", how would you respond to that?
 
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Guojing

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Judging on past experience in this forum I don't think this topic will be the one!

But in my times and pentecostal/ charismatic circles there are a lot of folks around who are seeking and needing physical healing and a lot of views on why many of them don't seem to receive it.

God Bless :)

I am sure by now, many Christians, no matter which circles they are from, have experienced covid-19.

Is there a difference in the time they need to take to fully recover from it, no matter what beliefs they have about divine healing?
 
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lismore

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I am sure by now, many Christians, no matter which circles they are from, have experienced covid-19.

Is there a difference in the time they need to take to fully recover from it, no matter what beliefs they have about divine healing?

Interesting question. At least two well known American healing speakers, Marcus Lamb and Fred Price died from Covid. Many, like Andrew Wommack had to shut down their operations, some who didn't shut down like the Bethel School of supernatural ministry had Covid super spreader events and great embarrassment, then there were 'prophets' like Kenneth Copeland and others who made a series of failed predictions about Covid.

It would almost seem that there is no correlation between the mega Pentecostals and protection from Covid. God Bless :)
 
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