Are there limits to what healing we can receive?

[Guojing]

Interesting question. At least two well known American healing speakers, Marcus Lamb and Fred Price died from Covid. Many, like Andrew Wommack had to shut down their operations, some who didn't shut down like the Bethel School of supernatural ministry had Covid super spreader events and great embarrassment, then there were 'prophets' like Kenneth Copeland and others who made a series of failed predictions about Covid.

It would almost seem that there is no correlation between the mega Pentecostals and protection from Covid. God Bless

Yes, covid-19 was probably the very first time for me, who used to follow WOF beliefs, when I start to question those beliefs.

 

[Strong in Him]

I know this:

• Jesus suffered and died for my sins and my sicknesses
• Jesus took stripes on His back for my healing.

That the word "healing" in Isaiah 53 refers to physical conditions and illnesses, is an interpretation of Scripture.
Jesus died to reconcile us to God and for the forgiveness of our sins - not to make sure that we never get headaches.

• The Psalmist said not to forget all his benefits - who forgives all your sins and who heals all your diseases

God hasn't always healed, everyone who has prayed in faith and asked him to.
That is a fact - yet I'm sure you're not saying that God's word has lied.

• I know that EVERYONE who came and asked Jesus and/or the disciples were healed and never told no or wait.

Already answered.

• I know that Paul was not sick

Yes he was.
He said that that was the only reason he preached to the Galatians, Galatians 4:13.
Luke was Paul's travelling companion and doctor.

And as I said, when someone was sick, just before the start of a missionary journey, Paul did not heal them; he left them behind.

• I know that the same Spirit that raised Christ from the graves lives in us to quicken (heal) our mortal bodies.

Jesus told the disciples exactly what the role of the Holy Spirit was - to convict of sin, remind them what Jesus had said, to be their Comforter, to give them words to say when they were arrested and needed to stand up for their faith. In other words; to point to Jesus, witness to Jesus, draw people to Jesus.
Paul says that the Holy Spirit changes us into Jesus' image and likeness, 2 Corinthians 3:18. He also says that the Spirit witnesses that we are children of God and belong to God. And that the Spirit guarantees our future inheritance.
He did not say that the role of the Spirit was to make sure that believers never get ill.

I know these truths. What someone does or does not do is superfluous and holds no bearing on the truth of the Word of God.

And as I said; if Jesus had promised physical healing to all Christians, we would see it in our experience and our lives.
ALL who believe in and accept Jesus have eternal life and are saved. All - 100%; because Jesus said that he would give eternal life to all who believed. So everyone who believes in him has eternal life.
But not all Christians who believe in him are granted physical healing.

 

[Strong in Him]

Right - so why would it be any different today? Why wouldn't unbelief still be a cause?

But it isn't.
The man who had the demon possessed son said to Jesus, "IF you can ......"
Jesus replied that everything is possible for the one who believes. And the man answered, "I do believe, help me in my unbelief". Jesus was standing right in front of him, and he still said, "IF you can"
and confessed some unbelief.
The man at the pool of Bethesda did not confess faith in Jesus. He had faith in a superstition that an angel occasionally stirred the waters and anyone who then entered, was healed.
But Jesus granted healing to both.

We already have more faith than they did.
We cannot see Jesus yet we believe in him, believe that God answers prayer and that he hears us.
We cannot see, but we believe, John 20:29, Hebrews 11:1, Hebrews 11:6.

People who met Jesus did not necessarily believe - even when he was standing right in front of them. Nor did Jesus always ask them about their faith.
We who have not physically met Jesus and cannot see him, pray; believing in his power, that he saves us, that he answers prayer. Some fast and have hands laid on them, etc.
But not all of them receive physically healing - either at the time they ask for it, or later.

He also did NOT say only some would be healed - He also did not say healing is for only certain people - He also did not say healing was not His will - and He never said no to someone who asked for healing.

And yet some today, ARE told "not yet", and/or not granted healing.
Fact.
We walk by faith, not by sight.
We, who have the cross, the empty tomb, the Holy Spirit, the whole of the NT, the witness of thousands of Christians etc etc, are sometimes asked to trust God, even though we do not see the results of the things we pray for.

I never said anyone did, yet this seems to be stuck in your mind. Not sure why - but I have never preached, read or taught it.

I don't think I said that you did.
But this is what I have heard from others on these forums who also believe that God always heals Christians today.
Sorry if I implied that you believe this too and you don't.
But the argument has been; God always heals - due to the verses and reasons that you have given. God doesn't lie.
So when someone prays for healing, they ARE healed from that point and have to live by faith - i.e that they have been healed. And not by sight - i.e that they still have their symptoms.
This usually involves urging the sick person to refute, their symptoms and to declare over and over again that they ARE healed.
Jesus never told people to do that.

Again, sorry if the above does not apply to you.

 

[Strong in Him]

Who is the late John Stott? Why should I believe him?

He was a Minister, theologian, Bible teacher and wrote commentaries and other books.
No reason why you should believe him if you don't want to. But he did know something about the Bible, context, how to read and understand it - and the original languages in which it was written.

 

[Strong in Him]

That is not scriptural - it is experiential.

If God's word says something, wouldn't you expect it to always be true?
When the Psalmist says "taste and see how good the Lord is"; wouldn't you expect people from every generation and culture to be able to read that and apply it to their lives?
When Jesus said "whoever believes will receive eternal life", don't you think he wanted people to believe that and see it in their experience?

Isn't the whole impact of a Christian testimony that we can say, "I know that my Redeemer lives"?
"I know". It's not just academic - what happened to people centuries ago. It's real, today, in my experience.
A non Christian may not be at all impressed about the things that Moses, David, Peter or Paul saw, said or did. But if we say, "this is true today. I know God, my experience is .... " they may listen. Because that means there is a chance that they could have the same experience and God could become real to them too.

 

[Strong in Him]

Every argument you make is that experience is more authoritative than God's word.

No; like I said, if God says/promises something in his word, we should expect to see that today in our experience.
Otherwise, the Bible is just academic. We'd have to say to non Christians "I believe Jesus existed because 2,000 years ago, he gave eternal life to all who believed."
The fact is that Jesus said that whoever believes in him has eternal life - and we know that teaching to be true because we have experienced it in our own lives.
100% of those who believe in Jesus today have eternal life. Because he promised it.
Not every Christian who prays and asks for healing today, receives it.
Fact.
So either Jesus didn't promise that, or he did but he is unable to deliver.

Whenever I've made that point before, the response has always been along the lines of "people aren't healed because they don't have faith."
The only "Good News" that some Christians have for those who are sick or in pain, is "you haven't enough faith. You need to try/pray harder, fast, believe certain Scriptures" etc etc. In other words, your lack of healing is your fault.
And they illustrate that from their own experience - "I haven't been sick in X number of years", "I just confess my healing til I receive it. Look at my life for the proof of what I am saying."

 

[Strong in Him]

I am sure by now, many Christians, no matter which circles they are from, have experienced covid-19.

Is there a difference in the time they need to take to fully recover from it, no matter what beliefs they have about divine healing?

I believe that Jesus heals today - I know he does.
I do not believe that healing is promised to everyone, or physical healing guaranteed.
As far as I know, I have not had Covid19. I haven't even had a cold for a year.
I am also still free from M.E symptoms despite not believing that healing is guaranteed for all.

I have previously been told that if I do not believe, I cannot expect to receive anything from God.

 

[rockytopva]

To make the long story short.... Ramoth in Gilead is Ours!

 

[ARBITER01]

No; like I said, if God says/promises something in his word, we should expect to see that today in our experience.
Otherwise, the Bible is just academic.

Lot of good points in your responses.

When Jesus laid hands upon a person, that person was healed. When Peter and John commanded a person was healed in the name of Jesus,... they were healed. When Peter walked by people in the street waiting for him, they were healed by the power of GOD.

It is "by My Spirit" thus saith The Lord, not by our faith.

 

[ARBITER01]

Interesting question. At least two well known American healing speakers, Marcus Lamb and Fred Price died from Covid. Many, like Andrew Wommack had to shut down their operations, some who didn't shut down like the Bethel School of supernatural ministry had Covid super spreader events and great embarrassment, then there were 'prophets' like Kenneth Copeland and others who made a series of failed predictions about Covid.

It would almost seem that there is no correlation between the mega Pentecostals and protection from Covid. God Bless

Please don't group TV evangelists in with Pentecostals. They have never followed any of our doctrinal stances, or acknowledged any denomination associated with said teachings.

 

[Always in His Presence]

But who specifically stated that he is the apostle of the gentiles? (Romans 11:13)

The same one who said we are grafted into the vine and there is no difference between Jew and Greek.

 

[Always in His Presence]

That the word "healing" in Isaiah 53 refers to physical conditions and illnesses, is an interpretation of Scripture.
Jesus died to reconcile us to God and for the forgiveness of our sins - not to make sure that we never get headaches.

It speaks directly to physical healing - and makes another connection between forgiveness of sins and healing of the body.

And yet some today, ARE told "not yet", and/or not granted healing.
Fact.

Told not yet by who??? Unless God has changed, it has never happened in the whole of the New Testament - when did His will change?

We walk by faith, not by sight.
We, who have the cross, the empty tomb, the Holy Spirit, the whole of the NT, the witness of thousands of Christians etc etc, are sometimes asked to trust God, even though we do not see the results of the things we pray for.

Trust God for what? That the good shepherd will leave me in sickness and suffering for some unknown reason? That my Father who so loved the world He sacrificed His one and only Son who took stripes on His back, but not for me?

I fully understand what you are saying - here is our difference:

I personally cannot judge the Word of God by human experiences. Are all healed? Obviously no, Are all saved? obviously no, are all living Holy and Sanctified lives? obviously no - - are all baptized in the Holy Spirit? obviously no

Yet it is God's perfect will for each.

I cannot look into the Word of God and judge His word by human experience - if I did I would say things that are just not scriptural.

For what it is worth - healing has been a mainstay of my ministry for more than three decades. I spent a number of years as an instructor in a healing school where were 71 of 100 people who were diagnosed terminal were completely healed - doctor confirmed -

I weep for the loss of the 29 - but rejoice over the 71. If you look at the times in Scripture where people were not healed, not one time had to do with the will of God, nor His purpose for their lives. Not one time was someone turned away or told 'not yet', but every single one received what they asked for. Every single one.

That my friend is the difference in what you and I believe.

 

[Always in His Presence]

He was a Minister, theologian, Bible teacher and wrote commentaries and other books.
No reason why you should believe him if you don't want to. But he did know something about the Bible, context, how to read and understand it - and the original languages in which it was written.

I did a little (very little) research on him.

Is it true he supported annihilationism?

If so, he discounts the fundamental doctrine of eternal judgement. If so (and I don't claim to know), his theology is quite questionable.

 

[lismore]

Please don't group TV evangelists in with Pentecostals. They have never followed any of our doctrinal stances, or acknowledged any denomination associated with said teachings.

I believe there are strong connections, many like Benny Hinn were ordained into Pentecostal Denominations (he was an Assemblies of God Pastor), I believe Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry was also AOG. Many of them have followed your doctrinal stances and acknowledged denominations associated with your teachings, many have been invited into Pentecostal Denomination pulpits, been promoted by Pentecostal denominations and vice-versa. Joel Olsteen and Kenneth Copeland were promoted at at the AOG church I was part of 99-2007 and I know that Todd Bentley was promoted by Assemblies of God until he was exposed. Then there are Pentecostal Denominations like Potter's House, some of their speakers have extremely controversial views on issues like the Trinity, and 'prosperity' for example. God Bless

 

[ARBITER01]

I believe there are strong connections, many like Benny Hinn were ordained into Pentecostal Denominations (he was an Assemblies of God Pastor), I believe Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry was also AOG. Many of them have followed your doctrinal stances and acknowledged denominations associated with your teachings, many have been invited into Pentecostal Denomination pulpits, been promoted by Pentecostal denominations and vice-versa. Joel Olsteen and Kenneth Copeland were promoted at at the AOG church I was part of 99-2007 and I know that Todd Bentley was promoted by Assemblies of God until he was exposed. Then there are Pentecostal Denominations like Potter's House, some of their speakers have extremely controversial views on issues like the Trinity, and 'prosperity' for example. God Bless

Was
Was
Was

I think the pattern is maybe they started out as being associated with AOG or one of the other Triune believing Pentecostal denominations, but they quickly ran off with their own form of Christianity, or as in many cases, were asked to either abide by our doctrinal stances or leave.

EDIT: Additionally, there needs to be a separation between who is actually Pentecostal and who is Charismatic in beliefs. Many of those folks you listed have very Charismatic type beliefs and practices that the AOG and others have never promoted in our doctrinal stances.

It's unfortunate, but yea, there needs to be a distinction.

 

[lismore]

Told not yet by who??? Unless God has changed, it has never happened in the whole of the New Testament - when did His will change?
.

The bible says: Acts 19:11-12 God did extraordinary miracles through Paul, so that even handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched him were taken to the sick, and their illnesses were cured and the evil spirits left them.

But yet again it says:

Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses (1 Timothy 5:23).

Erastus stayed in Corinth, and I left Trophimus sick in Miletus (2 Timothy 4:20)

Although the Lord performed many incredible miracles through Paul that the people were glad of, there are at least two occasions given in Paul's Ministry where supernatural healing did not come for believers. Timothy was advised to drink a little wine for his stomach illnesses and mission partner Trophimus had to be left sick at Miletus.

God Bless

 

[jiminpa]

No; like I said, if God says/promises something in his word, we should expect to see that today in our experience.

You're still evaluating the Bible on experience. Since the Bible qualifies most promises as a response to faith, the promises are real, but we aren't believing. You are a great example of it on here. You are excusing the lack of God's moving with something other than what the Bible says will yield the condition we are seeing. We see the results of our unbelief, (yes, mine too), that the Bible says that we should expect, and then we are placing the blame for our own weak faith on God.

 

[Always in His Presence]

The bible says: Acts 19:11-12 God did extraordinary miracles through Paul, so that even handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched him were taken to the sick, and their illnesses were cured and the evil spirits left them.

But yet again it says:

Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses (1 Timothy 5:23).

And that is how the sickness was treated......

Erastus stayed in Corinth, and I left Trophimus sick in Miletus (2 Timothy 4:20)

That does not mean he was not healed, nor what his sickness was.

Although the Lord performed many incredible miracles through Paul that the people were glad of, there are at least two occasions given in Paul's Ministry where supernatural healing did not come for believers. Timothy was advised to drink a little wine for his stomach illnesses and mission partner Trophimus had to be left sick at Miletus.

God Bless

I was in Egypt in September of this year. I had one of the most wonderful lamb dinners I ever had and promptly contracted food poisoning. The next day the team I was with ministered without me. With no medications the food poisoning lasted less than 14 hours and the very next day I was back involved with the team with no after effects whatsoever.

Does sickness happen?

You betcha it does. If it didn't Jesus would not have taken the stripes. Is every healing spontaneous? Absolutely not - not even for Jesus while He was on the earth. I cannot expect to be greater than Him.

 

[lismore]

That does not mean he was not healed, nor what his sickness was.

It means that the man through whom the Lord did many miracles had in this case to leave behind a sick colleague still sick.

'I left Trophimus sick in Miletus'

With no medications the food poisoning lasted less than 14 hours and the very next day I was back involved with the team with no after effects whatsoever.

That sounds like the expected life cycle for poisoning from Clostridium perfringens bacteria, you get that from badly cooked meat.

God Bless

 

[Strong in Him]

You're still evaluating the Bible on experience.

No, I said that we should be able to see the truth of the Bible IN our experience.
Jesus is alive. How do we know? We have met with him and asked him into our lives.
Jesus still gives eternal life. How do we know? He has saved us and is saving others.
The Bible is not a academic textbook. How do we know? God speaks to us through it today.
The Holy Spirit is real. How do we know? We can receive him and know his presence and guidance.
The gifts or the Spirit are real and present today. How do we know? We can receive/have received them.

Our experience should confirm Scripture.
"You ask me how I know he lives; he lives within my heart."

If a Christian teaches that the Bible says that Jesus ALWAYS heals in response to prayer, and someone were to say "well what about .....? They believe, and they're in a wheelchair."
What is the answer?
The Christian is not going to say that the Bible is wrong.
It is highly unlikely they will say that their understanding/interpretation is incorrect.
I have been told by a few folks - mainly on here - that the problem is that I did not have enough faith. In other words, it was my fault. Such Good News - not.

Since the Bible qualifies most promises as a response to faith, the promises are real, but we aren't believing.

There we go. It's OUR fault - the sufferers fault - for their lack of belief.
But in any case, Jesus did not promise physical healing to all believers.

You are a great example of it on here. You are excusing the lack of God's moving

Who says God isn't moving?

We see the results of our unbelief, (yes, mine too), that the Bible says that we should expect, and then we are placing the blame for our own weak faith on God.

Not at all.

I've said it before; I was told several times on here that Jesus promised healing to all. But I could not expect to see healing, from M.E, for myself, because I did not believe - meaning, I didn't accept that doctrine.
Guess what? I still don't believe it, yet God healed me of M.E. 13 years ago.
I saw God moving in my life and healing - not because of any faith/lack of faith of my own; but because he is gracious, loving, faithful. I have seen him moving in my life since I became a Christian - and even more so since my healing.

My faith may not be as strong as it could be, but I would never blame God if I was showing a lack of faith. It is God who has been with me all the way; loving me in sickness and in health, in my doubts and in my certainties, in my knowledge and in the times that I have proved to be wrong or have misunderstood.