Are there limits to what healing we can receive?

[Presbyterian Continuist]

My ministry is in the market place or at home usually, I don't attend healing meetings.

However recently we have been asked to pray for folks in our liturgical service.

You have to be honest, that although you routinely pray and lay hands on for healing, it rarely happens instantly, and if a person is healed over time, it could very well be attributed to natural or medical means. It's like playing the pokies. Every now and again you hit the jackpot. The proof of a real ministry of healing would be for that person to go into the children's cancer ward of the hospital and heal every child in there.

 

[Always in His Presence]

The proof of a real ministry of healing would be for that person to go into the children's cancer ward of the hospital and heal every child in there.

When did Jesus do that? Or for that matter any of the Apostles?

Yes everyone who came to Him was healed - but there no account of Him going into any of the numerous leper colonies and healing everyone there - why is that?

 

[jiminpa]

Seeing that the norm in churches that people don't get healed through prayer and the laying on of hands, then by your definition all modern Christian believers are full of doubt and are double-minded, including yourself if you have had ministry for healing and not been healed instantly.

Absolutely including myself. The difference is that I recognize my sin and am working with the Holy Spirit to repent. I haven't rebeliously built a doctrine to excuse my unbelief and then demanded that others share the hardship of those same doubts. In fact, I try to encourage the rest of the body to greater trust. I'm selfish, but not  that selfish.

The rest of your post is just a ridiculous strawman, that even you could knock down if I fell for it. My stance is that after almost 2,000 years of human corruption, (yes those very fathers that you hold in such high esteem), attacking trust in God's promises, of course faith has been undermined to the point that it is actually ridiculed in the church, faithless betrothed that it is. The embattled saint needing what is promised, instead of finding encouragement among "God's people" is further attacked and embattled in yet another front. No wonder God is hindered.

 

[jiminpa]

You have to be honest...

Now you're tilting the playing field.

 

[jiminpa]

It's interesting to notice who discusses Bible, and who cites experience and hurting feelings. Some of the most productive things anyone ever said to me hurt my feelings.

 

[Carl Emerson]

You have to be honest, that although you routinely pray and lay hands on for healing, it rarely happens instantly, and if a person is healed over time, it could very well be attributed to natural or medical means. It's like playing the pokies. Every now and again you hit the jackpot. The proof of a real ministry of healing would be for that person to go into the children's cancer ward of the hospital and heal every child in there.

I am not claiming any particular ministry or gift - rather that He does stuff in response to our obedience.

Confess your sins to one another and pray for one another and leave the outcomes to Him.

I encourage other folks to do just that.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Harking back to the OP's original question - Jesus could only do what He saw the Father doing - so the key to understanding so called limits is a matter of staying within the boundaries that the Spirit is revealing to you at the time.

Sadly this is not taught and this has resulted in the circus that @Watchman1 is banging on about.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

When did Jesus do that? Or for that matter any of the Apostles?

Yes everyone who came to Him was healed - but there no account of Him going into any of the numerous leper colonies and healing everyone there - why is that?

Because healing was not the main focus of His mission. Healing was a sign that supported His mission of preaching the good news of the kingdom. When He cast out demons He said it was a sign that the kingdom has come to them. I believe that healing had the same function.

The contrast between Jesus healing all those who came to Him, and the situation in our modern churches is that out of all those who come to the front of the service in an altar call for healing, hardly any, if at all, are healed. That is the difference.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Now you're tilting the playing field.

All I'm saying is that in spite of all the sermons, messages, speechmaking, conferences, promises, naming and claiming concerning healing, nothing has actually worked. But people keep flogging the dead horse hoping that by some chance it will revive. Anyone with half a brain can see that it is not working. Even the most faithful, godly, Bible-believing healing practitioners, in spite of all their efforts and prayers, cannot make their healing ministry actually work.

If my computer stops working, would I be silly enough to keep on tapping the keys on the keyboard, clicking on icons with my mouse, in the hope that somehow my computer will start working again? No. I will find out what is wrong with it and work to solve the problem.

But, in the face of the fact that no one is getting healed, except maybe one in a thousand, out of the multitude of prayers, laying on of hands, quotes of Scripture, it is strange that no one is saying, "There is a problem here." Instead, anyone who speaks up and saying "The emperor has no clothes" is accused of being unbelieving, double minded, hateful, etc., etc.

In the face of promises of healing, even supported by quotes from Scripture, mainly from the Old Testament. and no actual healing of serious and terminal medical conditions is happening, one could take the attitude that these healing evangelists who are preaching guaranteed healing and fraudulent liars. A preacher that tells a group of sick people coming forward for healing that if they have faith they will be healed when he lays hands on them, and they don't get healed, isn't he lying to them?

So, I will say it again. God does not lie. His Word is truth. So the problem is not with God Himself. And usually sick people are so involved in trying to cope with their sickness and pain they don't have much room for having faith, so just turning up at the altar is all the faith they can muster. But it is the faith of a mustard seed, and Jesus said that is all that is needed to move mountains. So it is not usually the fault of the sick people that they are not healed. So where does the problem lie? Somewhere between the Scripture and the outcome. Somewhere in between there is a fault. I have suggested the fault may be in the interpretation of the Scripture, or perhaps the healing evangelist is just a fraud, or a misunderstanding of what the mission of the Holy Spirit actually is in our world. I don't really know, but someone needs to get off couch and try to find out so that others are not harmed by the false promises and disappointing outcomes.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I think one of the problems, and why few ask the questions that @Watchman1 raises, is that folks are taught not to 'touch the Lord's anointed' and not to challenge those who are bringing 'God's Word'...

In this sense such a forum as this is like a breath of fresh air - at last one can critique the present goings on, without risking being subject the 'heavy word' or in extreme cases excommunication.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I am not claiming any particular ministry or gift - rather that He does stuff in response to our obedience.

Confess your sins to one another and pray for one another and leave the outcomes to Him.

I encourage other folks to do just that.

I think that is all we can do. The best that we can expect is that whether a person is healed or not, God has a reason, just as He had a reason to cause Job to lose his possessions and family, and then his health. His friends thought they had all the answers, but it turned out they didn't. Studying the book of Job is a good teaching tool to see the reasons people have for people going through suffering and misfortune.

But what I have been going on about are those who advertise themselves as having a healing ministry where no one is getting healed. It has not stopped me praying for anyone who comes across my path having a medical condition. Usually people are blessed that someone cares enough about them that they will take the time. I have seen a couple of minor conditions relieved through prayer - a lady with a chronic back problem having a good, painless, night's sleep for the first time in ages. A nurse who had put her back out totally relieved of pain, my work supervisor healed of arthritis in her knee, and a young married lady who had a medical condition which made her unable to conceive, conceived the very night at home after the equipping meeting when I and others prayed for her. Those were enough to keep me motivated to continue praying for people. It is like taking Lotto tickets and winning small prizes, enough to continue. I would love to see someone healed of cancer or heart failure through my praying for them, but I won't be holding my breath.

But this does not solve the problem with the multitudes of sick people going to these big healing conferences and coming home still sick after being promised healing. It brings the Gospel into disrepute and throws mud on the Name of Jesus. I think that these big name men have to stop promising guaranteed healing until they find the answers they need. But I don't they they will while the truck loads of money keep rolling in from those who think if they offer their $100 of "seed faith" that this will earn them healing for their sick bodies.

 

[Divide]

The way I understand it, sickness comes from the sin corruption after Adam & Even fell and is predominately demonic in nature. For instance, there is a spirit of Infirmity. There is a spirit of cancer. There is a spirit of Death. These are real persons, spirits and their job is to sicken you and kill you.

But waitaminute! Jesus gave us all authority over demons & spirits. And when we see Jesus healing someone in the bible, He didn't have a healing service. There was no praying to God, oh God please heal this man...none of that. The thing that Jesus did most in His ministry was to cast out demons.

If you speak to the mountain it will remove and be cast into the sea. SO talk to the sickness, that is talk to the spirit of infirmity and tell it to leave in Jesus name and never come back. I've heard in testimony that doing this works. SOmetimes they have to repeat it a few times but it will leave. In Genesis God gave dominion of the land and all the earth from the beginning. So to speak to it in Jesus name is quite effective.

Sometimes the people's healing doesn't sjow up for a few days, then does.

Other times since the spirit of infirmity is gone, they send a spirit of Doubt back to whisper in the ear and when the begin doubting it in their mind, they have lost their healing. I've heard of that happening. False symptoms coming back. (You spirit of Doubt, I reject that for I know the Lord has healed me!)

I think that's spiritual warfare of a sort.

 

[Always in His Presence]

Because healing was not the main focus of His mission.

Like 5:20 When He saw their faith, He said to him, “Man, your sins are forgiven you.”

what did the man come for? Healing.

What did Jesus say to him? You are forgiven

21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, “Who is this who speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

22 But when Jesus perceived their thoughts, He answered and said to them, “Why are you reasoning in your hearts? 23 Which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Rise up and walk’?

Jesus Himself makes the connection between healing the body and forgiveness of sins


24 But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins”—He said to the man who was paralyzed, “I say to you, arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.”

Jesus Christ, the same yesterday today and tomorrow still demonstrates His ability to forgive sins. He has not changed.

Forgiveness of sins was His main focus and healing was proof of His authority to forgive.

 

[jiminpa]

I think one of the problems, and why few ask the questions that @Watchman1 raises, is that folks are taught not to 'touch the Lord's anointed' and not to challenge those who are bringing 'God's Word'...

In this sense such a forum as this is like a breath of fresh air - at last one can critique the present goings on, without risking being subject the 'heavy word' or in extreme cases excommunication.

I don't ask them because I don't want to challenge scripture. There's too much unbelief in the church as it is, to the point that we're faithless, in every way. The problem is not that we believe the scripture too much, it's that we barely believe it all, me included.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

.........................

Like 5:20 When He saw their faith, He said to him, “Man, your sins are forgiven you.”

what did the man come for? Healing.

What did Jesus say to him? You are forgiven

21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, “Who is this who speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

22 But when Jesus perceived their thoughts, He answered and said to them, “Why are you reasoning in your hearts? 23 Which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Rise up and walk’?

Jesus Himself makes the connection between healing the body and forgiveness of sins


24 But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins”—He said to the man who was paralyzed, “I say to you, arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.”

Jesus Christ, the same yesterday today and tomorrow still demonstrates His ability to forgive sins. He has not changed.

Forgiveness of sins was His main focus and healing was proof of His authority to forgive.

The theory's pretty sound, but difficult to find validated testimonies of actual healing in accordance with that theory. There is no doubt that healing upon forgiveness of sins happened with the Jesus, but I don't see anything to say that it happens with anyone else.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Some wonder why, if healing is included in the atonement, are not all believers healed?
Perhaps we could apply that same logic to salvation itself.

The scripture says Jesus was the lamb of God who has taken away the sins of the world.
The scripture says that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself.
The scripture says he is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world.
Jesus said the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

Based on these verses, why, then, is not everyone in the world saved? And, of course, the answer is, "It is not automatic; you have to believe."
And that is the answer to the above question. The reason all Christians are not healed is that you have to believe that Jesus suffered in His body for your healing. You have to "discern the Lord's body." If we, as believers, fail to discern the Lord's body, then the judgment remains on us.

This logic can be seen in John:

John 3:18 KJV
18. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

The condemnation is not new; it is the standing condemnation that exists upon all.

The same goes for healing. The judgment of 1 Corin 11 is not a new judgment. The sickness, weakness, and early death are nothing new. It is the standing judgment, the curse, on sinners. We may be saved by the blood into eternal life. But the body is for this life. It is to release us from the curse of the law, which includes all sicknesses. But you have to discern it. You have to believe and apply it when you take the bread.

1 Corinthians 11:29-31 KJV
29. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
31. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.



Notes:
John 1:29 KJV
29. The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 4:42 KJV
42. And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV
19. To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

1 John 2:2 KJV
2. And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 4:14 KJV
14. And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

 

[Always in His Presence]

.........................

The theory's pretty sound, but difficult to find validated testimonies of actual healing in accordance with that theory. There is no doubt that healing upon forgiveness of sins happened with the Jesus, but I don't see anything to say that it happens with anyone else.

Our difference is that I based the Word of God on what the Word says, not if someone can make it happen.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

I think that is all we can do. The best that we can expect is that whether a person is healed or not, God has a reason, just as He had a reason to cause Job to lose his possessions and family, and then his health. His friends thought they had all the answers, but it turned out they didn't. Studying the book of Job is a good teaching tool to see the reasons people have for people going through suffering and misfortune.

But what I have been going on about are those who advertise themselves as having a healing ministry where no one is getting healed. It has not stopped me praying for anyone who comes across my path having a medical condition. Usually people are blessed that someone cares enough about them that they will take the time. I have seen a couple of minor conditions relieved through prayer - a lady with a chronic back problem having a good, painless, night's sleep for the first time in ages. A nurse who had put her back out totally relieved of pain, my work supervisor healed of arthritis in her knee, and a young married lady who had a medical condition which made her unable to conceive, conceived the very night at home after the equipping meeting when I and others prayed for her. Those were enough to keep me motivated to continue praying for people. It is like taking Lotto tickets and winning small prizes, enough to continue. I would love to see someone healed of cancer or heart failure through my praying for them, but I won't be holding my breath.

But this does not solve the problem with the multitudes of sick people going to these big healing conferences and coming home still sick after being promised healing. It brings the Gospel into disrepute and throws mud on the Name of Jesus. I think that these big name men have to stop promising guaranteed healing until they find the answers they need. But I don't they they will while the truck loads of money keep rolling in from those who think if they offer their $100 of "seed faith" that this will earn them healing for their sick bodies.

Why the need for validation though? I mean, false ministers, false prophets have always existed and will always exist until the day Jesus returns. In fact I'm pretty sure scripture says they will get more numerous as that time draws near. If we believe what Jesus taught, we will know them by their fruit, not by whether they have doctor's notes proving their miraculous healing power. The people who opposed Jesus demanded He provide them proof of His claims. Even while He died on the cross, they demanded He prove Himself. Seems a bit off putting no?

And that's another issue in itself. I don't believe the power rests with us to use all willy-nilly as we see fit. The Spirit grants us the gift to fit the situation we are in. I don't subscribe to this idea that I'm given say the gift of healing, or a gift of healing, but if I'm out ministering then I can't expect words of prophecy because well I don't have the gift of prophecy. I don't see the gifts of 1 Cor 12 that way. As I'm working with the Spirit, He will grant me whatever gift I need at that moment to accomplish His work through me. So unless the Spirit tells me, go to that cancer hospital and clear it out as you put it. I no more have that ability than the next guy.

That's why I believe these gifts are given and displayed when the gospel is preached, when the name of Jesus is proclaimed. They are given to aid in that endeavor. If someone needs healing, sure they can be prayed over, in the sense of like James 5 with elders and such. That passage doesn't seem to indicate that healing would happen right away, it just says the Lord will heal. But from what you are proclaiming, that healing must be instantaneous and such like miracles, those are given on an as needed basis to empower and bless the ministry of the gospel.

 

[Always in His Presence]

.........................

The theory's pretty sound, but difficult to find validated testimonies of actual healing in accordance with that theory. There is no doubt that healing upon forgiveness of sins happened with the Jesus, but I don't see anything to say that it happens with anyone else.

It is not a theory - it is the words of Christ

 

[jiminpa]

It is not a theory - it is the words of Christ

... and that is the point of contention. There are those of us who consider God's word authoritative, and others who only consider God's word as valid as their experience and teachers allow.