Are there limits to what healing we can receive?

[Carl Emerson]

In context, it means the pain of sin and spiritual sickness.
The words "physical sickness/ailments" are not there. We read/hear "healing" and conclude that it means full physical health; the removal of physical illness.
The passage doesn't say that.

The stripes were physical not spiritual, you seem to be interpreting through a theological lense...

 

[Strong in Him]

The stripes were physical not spiritual, you seem to be interpreting through a theological lense...

I know the stripes were physical - but it does not say that the healing was from physical ailments.
The whole chapter says that he was punished, afflicted and suffered for our sin - not for our physical illnesses.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I know the stripes were physical - but it does not say that the healing was from physical ailments.
The whole chapter says that he was punished, afflicted and suffered for our sin - not for our physical illnesses.

Yet healing is in the atonement ???

 

[Strong in Him]

Yet healing was in the atonement ???

Physical healing wasn't; no. That's what I've been saying all along.
If it was, then all people would be physically healed the same time that they were saved. It's not right/possible to separate the two and say, "yes, they are saved now, and only might be physically healed later. "

FULL salvation - i.e. salvation from sin, pain, sickness, disappointment etc - only happens when someone dies. Because they are then made perfect and in a place where they cannot sin, or become sick.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Physical healing wasn't; no. That's what I've been saying all along.
If it was, then all people would be physically healed the same time that they were saved. It's not right/possible to separate the two and say, "yes, they are saved now, and only might be physically healed later. "

FULL salvation - i.e. salvation from sin, pain, sickness, disappointment etc - only happens when someone dies. Because they are then made perfect and in a place where they cannot sin, or become sick.

Interesting - it seems you are happy to accept progressive redemption before death.

Yet your 'logic' that all would be physically healed if healing was in the atonement does not ring true to me because we are not perfected totally before death in any sense. The Body of Christ was given the authority to forgive as well as to heal. But just as the depth of depravity in man spiritually is only fully addressed at resurrection time, so full healing and physical perfection is only addressed then as well. Because of this the demand that all would be fully healed at salvation time, if healing is in the atonement, is flawed.

When folks are born again and baptised, some are released and renewed spiritually in awesome ways.

When folks are born again and baptised, some are released physically in awesome ways.

When folks are born again and baptised, some are released mentally in awesome ways.

Jesus established His reign over all realms at the Cross, physical, mental, and spiritual.

Isaiah was right in referring to the sacrifice on the Cross to come, that healing is released through His stripes as His suffering was spiritual, mental and physical.

Healing is healing, not just spiritual but mental and physical as well.

However the degree to which this is appropriated in any individual before death is subject to His Grace and thence the will of the Spirit.

I have had the privilege of seeing a heroin addict released on all three levels and baptised in the sea, the wave of God's Love was so impacting that observers were quite overcome as well.

Jesus wants to do much more than we have generally accepted as 'normal' ...

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I'm not sure that you're reading my posts fully.

I have been healed from M.E. - on April 23rd 2009, if you want to know. I no longer have it, nor any symptoms. I am not ill.
For all of the 18 years that I had M.E, I did not ever - as far as I know - proclaim "I am healed by the stripes of Jesus".
Yet God DID heal me - despite some people on these forums trying to tell me that I had no faith and would not receive from him.

What I am saying is that it was not my words, the adoption of a doctrine or anything that I did/didn't believe that brought about my healing. GOD healed me - full stop.

Thank you for your testimony! Very encouraging and glorifies God. God is good, and there is nothing impossible for Him.

 

[Strong in Him]

Thank you for your testimony! Very encouraging and glorifies God. God is good, and there is nothing impossible for Him.

 

[Strong in Him]

Interesting - it seems you are happy to accept progressive redemption before death.

I think of it more as salvation and sanctification.
When we accept Jesus, we are saved - we pass from death to life and from darkness to light. But "salvation", I understand, comes from a word which means wholeness - and we cannot be fully whole while we are still in this sinful world, because we sin, fall sick, can be tempted etc etc.

Yet your 'logic' that all would be physically healed if healing was in the atonement does not ring true to me because we are not perfected totally before death in any sense.

Yes, I agree.
Maybe it's the way it's phrased, or maybe I am thinking of previous debates about this. But, to me, when people say "healing is included in the atonement", that suggests that "physical healing is part of/guaranteed by the atonement; if you're sick, it's your fault for not accessing everything God has for you.
I apologise if you are not saying, and do not believe that.

If good health is part of the atonement, as salvation from sin is, then, again to me, it's logical to believe that someone will be physically healed at the same time as all their sins are forgiven. Otherwise we are surely saying that the atonement has only been partially successful.

Because of this the demand that all would be fully healed at salvation time, if healing is in the atonement, is flawed.

I wasn't demanding it, just saying that, to me, it's logical that if both are part of the atonement, both will happen.
Otherwise, as I said, the atonement is incomplete.

When folks are born again and baptised, some are released and renewed spiritually in awesome ways.

When folks are born again and baptised, some are released physically in awesome ways.

When folks are born again and baptised, some are released mentally in awesome ways.

I don't doubt that.
But although all will be born again and some may be released and healed spiritually, some may not be healed physically. And any implication that they should be, or should have been, is incorrect.
Again, maybe I have misunderstood this whole teaching, but that's what it's sounded like to me.

 

[jiminpa]

Wow! "Did God really say?"

 

[jiminpa]

We've already established that the Bible, you know the Holy Spirit breathed scriptures, says that we are healed, so God already says that He is willing, since He paid a greater price than I can comprehend for it. It also tells why our experience may not reflect it.

James 1:6-8​

New King James Version​

6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. 7 For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; 8 he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.

God is willing, but we by will or unbelief reject what He has done for us.

 

[Strong in Him]

Wow! "Did God really say?"

???

 

[jiminpa]

???

I guess it's for those who have ears to hear what I meant.

 

[Guojing]

We've already established that the Bible, you know the Holy Spirit breathed scriptures, says that we are healed, so God already says that He is willing, since He paid a greater price than I can comprehend for it. It also tells why our experience may not reflect it.

James 1:6-8​

New King James Version​

6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. 7 For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; 8 he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.

God is willing, but we by will or unbelief reject what He has done for us.

How much faith does it take to get saved?

 

[Guojing]

Wow! "Did God really say?"

God said to Israel he is the Lord that heals (Deuteronomy 7:15, Exodus 15:26).

But he did not say that to you (2 Timothy 2:15).

 

[Carl Emerson]

I think of it more as salvation and sanctification.
When we accept Jesus, we are saved - we pass from death to life and from darkness to light. But "salvation", I understand, comes from a word which means wholeness - and we cannot be fully whole while we are still in this sinful world, because we sin, fall sick, can be tempted etc etc.

Yes, I agree.
Maybe it's the way it's phrased, or maybe I am thinking of previous debates about this. But, to me, when people say "healing is included in the atonement", that suggests that "physical healing is part of/guaranteed by the atonement; if you're sick, it's your fault for not accessing everything God has for you.
I apologise if you are not saying, and do not believe that.

If good health is part of the atonement, as salvation from sin is, then, again to me, it's logical to believe that someone will be physically healed at the same time as all their sins are forgiven. Otherwise we are surely saying that the atonement has only been partially successful.


I wasn't demanding it, just saying that, to me, it's logical that if both are part of the atonement, both will happen.
Otherwise, as I said, the atonement is incomplete.

I don't doubt that.
But although all will be born again and some may be released and healed spiritually, some may not be healed physically. And any implication that they should be, or should have been, is incorrect.
Again, maybe I have misunderstood this whole teaching, but that's what it's sounded like to me.

Thanks for explaining- we may well be on the same page.

It comes down to what it means to be in the atonement.

As yourself I don't believe we should be critical of folks that are not healed after prayer - or those who prayed for them for that matter - unless they demanded it from God which seems to be the modern trend. That being said it is good to check for unforgiveness before one prays.

However when I pray for the sick I am mindful that Jesus carried their condition on the Cross - the job is done - but when it is released is up to God Himself. At the same time all true believers receive full healing at resurrection time.

It seems we see this in the same way when we appreciate the intended meaning of terminology.

 

[mourningdove~]

I have been healed from M.E. - on April 23rd 2009, if you want to know. I no longer have it, nor any symptoms. I am not ill.
For all of the 18 years that I had M.E, I did not ever - as far as I know - proclaim "I am healed by the stripes of Jesus".
Yet God DID heal me - despite some people on these forums trying to tell me that I had no faith and would not receive from him.

What I am saying is that it was not my words, the adoption of a doctrine or anything that I did/didn't believe that brought about my healing. GOD healed me - full stop.

Glory to God!

It takes alot of faith to accept and walk thru suffering, and death, and not give up on God.
That some do not have that kind of faith, is often what I believe is the real issue.

Some people prefer to live in denial ...
it is more comfortable for them ... easier ... to believe in false teachings, than to live in reality, by faith.
But I think it is important, at least for me, to remember that faith is a gift ...
and we do not all have the same measure of faith.

 

[tturt]

God created us, Jehovah Rapha heals us. In Hebrew, it means to mend, to make whole.

Determined the time and place of our births:
-“And he made from one man every race of men to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted epochs and the fixed boundaries of the places where they would live;” (Acts 17:26)

He formed us:
-“For You formed my innermost parts; You knit me [together] in my mother’s womb” Psa 139:13
-“-“The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.” Job 33:4
-"I will put ligaments on you, place muscles on you, and cover you with skin. I will put breath in you, and you will live. Then you will know that I am Yahweh." Eze 37:6
-"Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?” Mal 2;10
-"Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created." Rev 4:11

All types of healing are recorded in the OT and NT except types of deliverance. In the NT, Jesus commanded demons to leave individuals.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

We've already established that the Bible, you know the Holy Spirit breathed scriptures, says that we are healed, so God already says that He is willing, since He paid a greater price than I can comprehend for it. It also tells why our experience may not reflect it.

James 1:6-8​

New King James Version​

6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. 7 For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; 8 he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.

God is willing, but we by will or unbelief reject what He has done for us.

Seeing that the norm in churches that people don't get healed through prayer and the laying on of hands, then by your definition all modern Christian believers are full of doubt and are double-minded, including yourself if you have had ministry for healing and not been healed instantly.

Therefore, if a person is totally doubt free and he is single-minded and stable in all his ways, then when he asks for healing, it should happen instantly and totally, don't you think?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Thanks for explaining- we may well be on the same page.

It comes down to what it means to be in the atonement.

As yourself I don't believe we should be critical of folks that are not healed after prayer - or those who prayed for them for that matter - unless they demanded it from God which seems to be the modern trend. That being said it is good to check for unforgiveness before one prays.

However when I pray for the sick I am mindful that Jesus carried their condition on the Cross - the job is done - but when it is released is up to God Himself. At the same time all true believers receive full healing at resurrection time.

It seems we see this in the same way when we appreciate the intended meaning of terminology.

Putting oneself in the place of an unbeliever who goes to a healing conference where the preacher claims that when he prays people will and are getting healed, and he sees all the really serious cases leave the conference without being healed, it is understandable that one would think that the whole deal is a fake where the preacher is talking about it but can't come up with the actual goods. One may not want to accept that the job of healing is already done but God releases it at some time later. Maybe the ordinary down to earth person would think that if a preacher claims that people are healed, then they should be healed right then and there.

Actually, claiming that healing is complete and God releases it at a later stage is never mentioned in the New Testament. In the Book of Acts, when the Holy Spirit healed someone, they were healed on the spot, instantly and totally. No one had their healing deferred after accepting it "by faith". That reasoning is an excuse by practitioners of a defunct and bankrupt "healing ministry."

 

[Carl Emerson]

Putting oneself in the place of an unbeliever who goes to a healing conference where the preacher claims that when he prays people will and are getting healed, and he sees all the really serious cases leave the conference without being healed, it is understandable that one would think that the whole deal is a fake where the preacher is talking about it but can't come up with the actual goods. One may not want to accept that the job of healing is already done but God releases it at some time later. Maybe the ordinary down to earth person would think that if a preacher claims that people are healed, then they should be healed right then and there.

Actually, claiming that healing is complete and God releases it at a later stage is never mentioned in the New Testament. In the Book of Acts, when the Holy Spirit healed someone, they were healed on the spot, instantly and totally. No one had their healing deferred after accepting it "by faith". That reasoning is an excuse by practitioners of a defunct and bankrupt "healing ministry."

My ministry is in the market place or at home usually, I don't attend healing meetings.

However recently we have been asked to pray for folks in our liturgical service.