Are there limits to what healing we can receive?

[hislegacy]

You are correct Jesus did not say it verbatim -

He also did NOT say only some would be healed

- He also did not say healing is for only certain people

- He also did not say healing was not His will

- and He never said no to someone who asked for healing.

Why have you not addressed any of those?

 

[hislegacy]

We are stuck going in circles -

Thank you for your time - I'll not keep repeating myself

 

[ARBITER01]

I don't think anyone is saying God's power is limited. Human understanding is limited.

I would disagree to some extent.

Healing can be divided into 3 categories,...

Body/flesh - doctors/medicine/natural(herbal, etc)
Soul/mental - individual faith/group faith
Holy Spirit/anointing- gifts of healings ministry/direct healing from an anointing upon someone (handkerchiefs transferring the anointing, etc)/by utterance of The Holy Spirit/by the Holy Spirit's power and virtue flowing outward from someone, as in the case of Peter.

Some examples of each can be be found in scripture as well as extra biblical material.

Each of these categories has it's own limitations in many respects. For instance, the body/flesh category has it's limitations on the skill of doctors, the strength of medicines and herbal blends, etc. The soul/mental category has it's limitations on the greatness of faith a person(s) possesses. The Holy Spirit/anointing category is limited by the holiness a person continues to have and their continual direct relationship with GOD in the face of massive conflict from satan and his followers.

There is a bit of understanding involved with each of these, but there is also a limitation with people and their ambitions and desires. A person might find an amount of faith to provide healing for themselves or someone else, but is that person suppose to stop there and write a bunch of books about it and declare faith as what Jesus wanted us to pursue when there is a greater category?

 

[hislegacy]

Mark 9:14 And when He came to the disciples, He saw a great multitude around them, and scribes disputing with them. 15 Immediately, when they saw Him, all the people were greatly amazed, and running to Him, greeted Him. 16 And He asked the scribes, “What are you discussing with them?”

17 Then one of the crowd answered and said, “Teacher, I brought You my son, who has a mute spirit. 18 And wherever it seizes him, it throws him down; he foams at the mouth, gnashes his teeth, and becomes rigid. So I spoke to Your disciples, that they should cast it out, but they could not.”

19 He answered him and said, “O faithless generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I bear with you? Bring him to Me.” 20 Then they brought him to Him. And when he saw Him, immediately the spirit convulsed him, and he fell on the ground and wallowed, foaming at the mouth.

21 So He asked his father, “How long has this been happening to him?”

And he said, “From childhood. 22 And often he has thrown him both into the fire and into the water to destroy him. But if You can do anything, have compassion on us and help us.”

23 Jesus said to him, “If you can believe, all things are possible to him who believes.”

24 Immediately the father of the child cried out and said with tears, “Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!”

25 When Jesus saw that the people came running together, He rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it, “Deaf and dumb spirit, I command you, come out of him and enter him no more!” 26 Then the spirit cried out, convulsed him greatly, and came out of him. And he became as one dead, so that many said, “He is dead.” 27 But Jesus took him by the hand and lifted him up, and he arose.
​

Emphasis mine.

1. it was God's will that child would be healed - (evidenced by his healing)
2. The Disciples were not able to help (even thought it was God's will)
3. The father questioned Jesus' ability.
4. Questioned the father's belief - "If you can believe, all things are possible to him who believes"
5. The father IMMEDIATELY chose to believe
6. The child was healed.
​

Perfect example of God's will to heal and God's will not being realized until a decision to believe was made.

 

[lismore]

I would disagree to some extent.

Hello! Thanks for your interesting post, some food for thought there. But it seems to be that in the thread there are many good points, but these are being extrapolated further into generalizations. Sometimes the Lord thinks and acts outside the box of our minds. For example:

The Holy Spirit/anointing category is limited by the holiness a person continues to have and their continual direct relationship with GOD in the face of massive conflict from satan and his followers.

On the other hand in Isaiah 45 there is the example of the pagan King Cyrus, whom the Lord anoints and calls Messiah, even though he is a pagan who knows nothing of the true God. In terms of holiness Cyrus is not even on the ballpark. And yet the Lord has a purpose in anointing and empowering him further perhaps than anyone else in many centuries.

He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: "What have you done?" (Daniel 4:35)

When persons say they understand the will of God completely in every situation, including healing, it's well meaning I'm sure but perhaps unrealistic, either underestimating God or overestimating themselves.

Why was Trophimus left sick at Miletus by Paul, whom God used to raise the dead- Faith and presumption are not the same thing.

God Bless

 

[ARBITER01]

On the other hand in Isaiah 45 there is the example of the pagan King Cyrus, whom the Lord anoints and calls Messiah, even though he is a pagan who knows nothing of the true God. In terms of holiness Cyrus is not even on the ballpark. And yet the Lord has a purpose in anointing and empowering him further perhaps than anyone else in many centuries.

We have an example that we are to follow, and that is Jesus. How GOD did things through Him and what the results were is what we are to seek to understand and imitate. In other words, GOD is to be able to do the same thing through us.

OT examples are there for our learning but they will not supersede the example Jesus gave us.

 

[Guojing]

Why was Trophimus left sick at Miletus by Paul, whom God used to raise the dead- Faith and presumption are not the same thing.

God Bless

Generally, if you want to believe healing is for today, you will look at Jesus during the 4 gospels.

If you want to believe financial prosperity is for today, then the 4 gospels would not be good because of passages like Luke 12:33. You would prefer to look at Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the book of Genesis instead.

But Paul's epistles would not be good for either of these.

 

[Strong in Him]

You are correct Jesus did not say it verbatim -

He also did NOT say only some would be healed

- He also did not say healing is for only certain people

- He also did not say healing was not His will

- and He never said no to someone who asked for healing.

Why have you not addressed any of those?

I did; in post#134.

 

[Strong in Him]

5. The father IMMEDIATELY chose to believe
​

​

He said, "I believe; help me in my unbelief".
Jesus was standing right in front of him, and the man still confessed to unbelief.

 

[hislegacy]

​

He said, "I believe; help me in my unbelief".
Jesus was standing right in front of him, and the man still confessed to unbelief.

Yup, right after he made the decision to believe. Read the verse before it.

23 Jesus said to him, “If you can believe, all things are possible to him who believes.”
24 Immediately the father of the child cried out and said with tears, “Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!”​

Even when his belief was weak, Jesus helped him and healed his son.

1. it was God's will that child would be healed - (evidenced by his healing)
2. The Disciples were not able to help (even thought it was God's will)
3. The father questioned Jesus' ability.
4. Questioned the father's belief - "If you can believe, all things are possible to him who believes"
5. The father IMMEDIATELY chose to believe
6. The child was healed.
Perfect example of God's will to heal and God's will not being realized until a decision to believe was made.

 

[Strong in Him]

Yup, right after he made the decision to believe. Read the verse before it.

23 Jesus said to him, “If you can believe, all things are possible to him who believes.”
24 Immediately the father of the child cried out and said with tears, “Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!”​

Even when his belief was weak, Jesus helped him and healed his son.

I've read it.
Yes, he said he believed; he also confessed to unbelief. And that was when he could see Jesus standing in front of him.

How does a Christian today - who cannot see Jesus but believes in him and trusts him, who has been filled with his Spirit and who goes to a healing service asking for prayer for healing - have less faith in Jesus than that man did?
How do they have less faith than the man at the pool of Bethesda who, when asked if he wanted to be well, only said "I can't get into the water after the water has been stirred" (they believed it was stirred by an angel).

That is partly why I say that the amount of faith someone has is not an issue, Hebrews 11:6. We/people DO believe and God does reward and bless us. But it may not always be with physical healing - which isn't the most important thing anyway.

 

[hislegacy]

I've read it.
Yes, he said he believed; he also confessed to unbelief. And that was when he could see Jesus standing in front of him.

How does a Christian today - who cannot see Jesus but believes in him and trusts him, who has been filled with his Spirit and who goes to a healing service asking for prayer for healing - have less faith in Jesus than that man did?
How do they have less faith than the man at the pool of Bethesda who, when asked if he wanted to be well, only said "I can't get into the water after the water has been stirred" (they believed it was stirred by an angel).

That is partly why I say that the amount of faith someone has is not an issue, Hebrews 11:6. We/people DO believe and God does reward and bless us. But it may not always be with physical healing - which isn't the most important thing anyway.

Once again - we are speaking of two completely different aspects - I am coming from a strictly scriptural perspective and you are coming from an experiential perspective.

I submit, we will most likely never have a meeting of the minds.

I cannot circumvent your reasoning with scripture, because it is your reasoning - not mine nor anyone else's.

My faith - what I believe is based solely on the Word of God - nothing else.

That does not make me right and you wrong - nor does it make you right and me wrong - it is what it is - our points of view and beliefs.

The elephant in the room is also the point that Healing doesn't come just by the faith of the individual - in scripture there are a number of ways healing was ministered that had zero to do with the individuals faith.

 

[Strong in Him]

Once again - we are speaking of two completely different aspects - I am coming from a strictly scriptural perspective and you are coming from an experiential perspective.

I am saying what I've always said, which is that the truth of the Bible should be seen in our experience.
How can you separate it?
A non Christian says, "how do you know that God is real, that he answers prayer or that Jesus is alive?"
Don't you say, "I know it because he answers my prayers, lives in my life, guides me" or whatever?
The most powerful argument for God is personal experience; "I know that my Redeemer lives". It's called a witness - saying what you have seen and know to be true. And we are all called to witness.
If you had been healed of some awful illness would you say to people, "well Jesus heals today, and here are a bunch of verses from the Bible which show that". Or, "Jesus heals today because he has healed me"? I suspect the latter.
If there was a healing service at your church which resulted in people being healed - even leaving wheelchairs - would you say, "Jesus healed people 2000 years ago," or "Come and see what is happening in our church and how Jesus heals today"? I suspect the latter.

If our faith isn't lived out day to day and seen in our experience, it is academic and doesn't work.

I cannot circumvent your reasoning with scripture, because it is your reasoning - not mine nor anyone else's.

I'm not the only person who's ever said this.

So you have no answer for the disappointed person who hasn't been healed. Or the person who stops going to church and may be on the point of giving up their faith, because they are disappointed with God. Or the person who is genuinely seeking and questioning who may ask, "if God wants to heal everyone, why doesn't he?"

My faith - what I believe is based solely on the Word of God - nothing else.

I trust in God's word too. Yet there are 1001 things which the Bible does not answer.
The Bible does not tell us what job to have, whether, or who, to marry, where to live, what church to attend etc.
It does not tell us about modern life, because it was written and compiled long before any of our grandparents were even thought of. So yes, the earth is the Lord's - but what does he say about pollution, climate change etc? Nothing.
We have to take Bible truths and apply, and show them, in our own lives and experience. " continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling", Philippians 2:12, does not mean try to figure out how you can be saved. It means, apply God's teaching on how to live to your life. Find out what he's saying to you through Scripture.

The elephant in the room is also the point that Healing doesn't come just by the faith of the individual -

The elephant in the room is that some Christians; believing, Spirit filled Christians, sometimes pray for physical healing and do not receive it. That is a fact.
I can't help feeling that you are saying "I just live by God's word" and are hoping that the elephant will just disappear. As I said, that just means that you will have no answer for those who, today, pray for healing but who might not receive it.

 

[hislegacy]

I am saying what I've always said, which is that the truth of the Bible should be seen in our experience.
How can you separate it?

I fully understand what you are saying - and have understood it every single time you have posted it. You can post it as often as you feel necessary, but I will still stay with scripture for my beliefs.

I have explained just as many time how I can and do separate it. Sorry you do not agree -

 

[hislegacy]

The elephant in the room is that Christians, believing, Spirit filled Christians, sometimes pray for physical healing and do not receive it. That is a fact.
I can't help feeling that you are saying "I just live by God's word" and are hoping that the elephant will just disappear. As I said, that just means that you will have no answer for those who, today, pray for healing but who might not receive it.

BTW - I have NEVER hoped the 'elephant' (to you), will disappear. I fully recognize that some do not. I also recognize that several did not in Jesus own ministry. I have stated that very plainly.

This will be my last response to you. I wish you well.

 

[hislegacy]

Mark 5:22 And behold, one of the rulers of the synagogue came, Jairus by name. And when he saw Him, he fell at His feet 23 and begged Him earnestly, saying, “My little daughter lies at the point of death. Come and lay Your hands on her, that she may be healed, and she will live.
​

Here is the account of Jairus one of the rulers of the synagogue (those plotting the death of Jesus), falling at Jesus feet and saying.....

In the next verses we reading on the woman with the issue of blood and her interactions with Christ. we pick up at vs

35 While He was still speaking, some came from the ruler of the synagogue’s house who said, “Your daughter is dead. Why trouble the Teacher any further?”36 As soon as Jesus heard the word that was spoken, He said to the ruler of the synagogue, “Do not be afraid; only believe.
​

Question: Jesus told him - "Do not be afraid; only believe" - what is Jesus asking Jairus to believe.

Hint - it is bolded.

 

[lismore]

We have an example that we are to follow, and that is Jesus. How GOD did things through Him and what the results were is what we are to seek to understand and imitate. In other words, GOD is to be able to do the same thing through us.

OT examples are there for our learning but they will not supersede the example Jesus gave us.

Hello! Thank you for your reply.

I don't believe the two (Jesus and the OT) can be easily separated, for example:

but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe (Hebrews 1:2)

This passage in Hebrews takes our minds back to the Creation, which is Genesis 1. The Son can speak a word of command and a universe comes into being! Jesus said let there be light and there was light. Jesus could raise the dead by a word of command.

However when the church tries to follow that example, declaring healing:

UPDATE: Bethel pastor Johnson addresses attempts to resurrect child

Sadly too often the result does not seem to be good. And I have not heard of anyone in a Charismatic church, regardless of their self-assurance being able to create a universe.

God Bless

 

[lismore]

Mark 5:22 And behold, one of the rulers of the synagogue came, Jairus by name. And when he saw Him, he fell at His feet 23 and begged Him earnestly, saying, “My little daughter lies at the point of death. Come and lay Your hands on her, that she may be healed, and she will live.
​

Here is the account of Jairus one of the rulers of the synagogue (those plotting the death of Jesus), falling at Jesus feet and saying.....

In the next verses we reading on the woman with the issue of blood and her interactions with Christ. we pick up at vs

35 While He was still speaking, some came from the ruler of the synagogue’s house who said, “Your daughter is dead. Why trouble the Teacher any further?”36 As soon as Jesus heard the word that was spoken, He said to the ruler of the synagogue, “Do not be afraid; only believe.
​

Question: Jesus told him - "Do not be afraid; only believe" - what is Jesus asking Jairus to believe.

Hint - it is bolded.

Matthew 14: 25-33 Shortly before dawn Jesus went out to them, walking on the lake. When the disciples saw him walking on the lake, they were terrified. “It’s a ghost,” they said, and cried out in fear.

But Jesus immediately said to them: “Take courage! It is I. Don’t be afraid.”

“Lord, if it’s you,” Peter replied, “tell me to come to you on the water.”

“Come,” he said.

Then Peter got down out of the boat, walked on the water and came toward Jesus. But when he saw the wind, he was afraid and, beginning to sink, cried out, “Lord, save me!”

Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him. “You of little faith,” he said, “why did you doubt?”

And when they climbed into the boat, the wind died down. Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”

Is there any evidence that anyone came to Jesus asking to walk on the water and he refused them? Have you ever used a boat?

 

[ARBITER01]

Hello! Thank you for your reply.

I don't believe the two (Jesus and the OT) can be easily separated, for example:

but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe (Hebrews 1:2)

This passage in Hebrews takes our minds back to the Creation, which is Genesis 1. The Son can speak a word of command and a universe comes into being! Jesus said let there be light and there was light. Jesus could raise the dead by a word of command.

True,....but we don't attempt to live our Christian lives only according to OT examples. There is plenty there for GOD to relate to us in certain situations, but Jesus is still our standard for nowadays.

However when the church tries to follow that example, declaring healing:

UPDATE: Bethel pastor Johnson addresses attempts to resurrect child

Sadly too often the result does not seem to be good. And I have not heard of anyone in a Charismatic church, regardless of their self-assurance being able to create a universe.

God Bless

I don't really believe they are following His example.

 

[lismore]

I am saying what I've always said, which is that the truth of the Bible should be seen in our experience.
How can you separate it?
.

Hello! Perhaps this scripture answers the question:

I know that you cannot tolerate wicked people, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false (Revelation 2:2).

You will know them by their fruits (Matthew 7:16)

When people make big pompous claims that don't pan out they've failed the test.

There have been many threads on this forum with people asking for evidence or testimonies of supernatural healings and miracles. Usually these generate a tiny number of amazing testimonies. But the talk often falls short of the walk.

God Bless