Are there limits to what healing we can receive?

lismore

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I don't really believe they are following His example.

It's a conundrum. We know that Jesus raised a dead child from the dead, by declaring. The assumption is that he always wills it. The people at Bethel willed it declaring, shouting, jumping and getting into a frenzy over it for two days. The Apostles who lead Bethel willed it-and with their authority- Peter the Apostle raised a dead girl. Why then tragically was this poor girl not raised from the dead? (not specifically asking you, this is a generic question mark). Are there then parameters? God Bless :)
 
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SavedByGrace3

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The thing about doubt is all you need is one.
If you give people a reason to think God might not want them healed, they will almost always run with it. It is just human nature. They will say, "Yeah, I guess that is my situation; that is me. Oh well."
If you suggest that God uses sickness to enhance our spirituality, they will look at themselves and say, "Yeah, I am not as spiritual as I could be, so God must be doing this to me for a spiritual reason." And who is as spiritual as they "could be?"
People who are in the extreme mindset that "God is in control of everything" will reason that since He is in control of everything, then it must be His will for me to be sick, else they would not be sick. Until this stronghold is removed from their reasoning, they will rarely get healed or even get their prayers answered.
So people are very vulnerable to these kinds of reasonings. It is almost inevitable that people who hold to this logic will not get healed or ever have faith to be healed. Despite the plethora of evidence of God's will and provision for healing, they will be snared by that one doubt. But the Word will free us from our faulty logic and the devil's lies. So as you said in the OP, "forget not his benefits, who forgives all your iniquities, who heals all your diseases."
 
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ARBITER01

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It's a conundrum. We know that Jesus raised a dead child from the dead, by declaring. The assumption is that he always wills it. The people at Bethel willed it declaring, shouting, jumping and getting into a frenzy over it for two days. The Apostles who lead Bethel willed it-and with their authority- Peter the Apostle raised a dead girl. Why then tragically was this poor girl not raised from the dead? (not specifically asking you, this is a generic question mark). Are there then parameters? God Bless :)

Of course there are parameters.

Some situations call for something more than just faith. If that situation was actually going to be for the glory of GOD (and only He knows if it would have been), then He could have used a person operating in the working of miracles gift for that situation. The problem is,....we don't have any of these people operating in these greater gifts in the body right now.

Everyone thinks that they can just make anything happen if enough people muster up enough belief for a given situation,.... but that was never how Jesus or any of the apostles ever did it. Look at Peter in Acts 5. He was simply walking by folks that were brought from all over the countryside to him and the power of GOD flowing out of him healed them all. Every single one of them. There was no mention of whether each of them had enough faith beforehand, it was simply GOD doing it for His glory/credit,... Peter was only the instrument of His righteousness in that situation.

Why don't we have that happening?
 
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Strong in Him

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The thing about doubt is all you need is one.
If you give people a reason to think God might not want them healed, they will almost always run with it.

Maybe.
But I have never been to, or heard of, a healing service where people teach "come forward for prayer; God might heal you, or he might not want to."

We ask for, and offer, prayer because we believe that God heals.
But having asked for prayer, the timing, and method, are up to God.
If God doesn't grant physical healing - immediately or at all - then we naturally want to ask why, and look for answers. And sometimes there is an assumption by the sick person that healing will always be miraculous. Or that it has to be as it was in Scripture, because otherwise it "hasn't worked."
It doesn't.
 
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Guojing

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Maybe.
But I have never been to, or heard of, a healing service where people teach "come forward for prayer; God might heal you, or he might not want to."

We ask for, and offer, prayer because we believe that God heals.
But having asked for prayer, the timing, and method, are up to God.
If God doesn't grant physical healing - immediately or at all - then we naturally want to ask why, and look for answers. And sometimes there is an assumption by the sick person that healing will always be miraculous. Or that it has to be as it was in Scripture, because otherwise it "hasn't worked."
It doesn't.

Philippians 4:6-7 is so clear on how one should pray.
 
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Trying to find a topic that we can amicably disagree on, hopefully this is it. Scripture seems to support and promote that God heals us from all sickness and conditions.

Psalm 103:3 He who forgives all your iniquities and heals all your diseases,

Matthew 4:23 Jesus went throughout Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every disease and sickness among the people.

But most all of us have experienced times when we ask for and seek healing and it does not come. Now, a caveat to this discussion is I'm asking you not to use "It's God's Will" as a response to this. Is there scriptural support for the idea that we cannot be healed of some conditions?

Like, are there limits to what we can and cannot be healed of?

What is our response to people who genuinely ask for healing but do not receive it?
May God Bless You. Diseases are caused by our own sins. You have to redeem your sins through pain and suffering, so that you can learn/fix/rectify your past mistakes. If you do not get healed when you pray is because your sin is not yet removed/redeemed or you have not yet recognised that you are sick because of your own deeds. Ask God for forgiveness and also Forgive others that have wronged you!
 
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SavedByGrace3

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And that is the word of the day when it comes to doubt, not only for healing or any other answered prayer but also, and more importantly, for pleasing God.

Heb 11:6
But without faith, it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

We can and should question ourselves, even our faith... but never question God, His goodness, or His Word. There are no maybes in God.
 
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Strong in Him

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And that is the word of the day when it comes to doubt, not only for healing or any other answered prayer but also, and more importantly, for pleasing God.

Heb 11:6
But without faith, it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

We can and should question ourselves, even our faith... but never question God, His goodness, or His Word. There are no maybes in God.

No, my "maybe" was in response to your post.
As in "you could be correct in what you say about giving people a reason to doubt - I haven't looked into it."
I could not say that your post was spot on correct; neither could I say that that never happens.
Hence "maybe."

I was not questioning God.
 
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Guojing

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No, my "maybe" was in response to your post.
As in "you could be correct in what you say about giving people a reason to doubt - I haven't looked into it."
I could not say that your post was spot on correct; neither could I say that that never happens.
Hence "maybe."

I was not questioning God.

If you meet Christians who are somehow convinced that promises made by God to specific individuals in scripture are also meant for them to claim, it is difficult for anyone else to make them understand that no matter how much faith they try to summon to do so, those promises are simply not to them.
 
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A messenger of Satan could easily be an illness.
Satan brings sickness and death. All Job's troubles and sufferings were sent by Satan. He sends sickness, death etc to us to try to get our eyes off God.
And in many cases it seems to work - at least for a while. People blame God for suffering. Because non Christians believe he is responsible, should at least stop it or could stop it and won't, they don't want to believe in him. I daresay that some Christians may have even lost their faith because they feel God should heal them and doesn't. Job done - 1-0 to Satan.

Many people have misunderstood what Paul was saying with regard to the subject of the thorn in the flesh from 2 Cor. 12. Let's take a fresh look at this and begin with what Paul said.

"And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong." - 2 Corinthians 12:7-10

This thorn in the flesh that Paul mentioned has been used and misused by Christians to justify submitting to nearly any problem that comes along. Satan has twisted this passage of scripture to deceive many, many people into believing that God would not heal Paul, so how can they expect to be healed?

First of all, this "thorn" came because of the abundance of revelations Paul had received. Until a person has an abundance of revelations, similar to what Paul had, he is not going to have a "thorn." That would disqualify just about all of those who have been hiding behind Paul's thorn.

Then, verse 7 says it came lest Paul should be exalted above measure. Traditionally, that has been interpreted to say the thorn was to keep Paul humble. Therefore, God had to be the author of it, because only God would want Paul to be humble. But there is a godly way of being exalted. First Peter 5:6 says, "Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time." Those who submit (humble) themselves to God will be exalted by God. Paul was not speaking of exalting himself above measure through pride, but rather, the thorn came from Satan to keep Paul from being exalted by God in the eyes of the people. Many more people would have received what Paul preached if everything was always "rosy" for him. But there was this messenger of Satan who always buffeted Paul and scared away the faint-hearted from committing themselves to Jesus, whom Paul preached.

God magnified, or exalted, Joshua in the sight of his people (Josh. 3:7). He continued to do that with the people He used on into the new covenant (Acts 5:13). So, we see that the exalting spoken of is not a negative kind but a godly kind. That just further strengthens the fact that the thorn was not God's doing.

In verse 7, right after the thorn in the flesh is mentioned, there is a phrase set off by commas which says, "the messenger of Satan to buffet me." This is an explanation of what the thorn was. It was not a thing but rather, a demonic messenger. The word used as "messenger" here is always translated as angel or messenger and refers to a created being. So, Paul's thorn was literally a demon sent from Satan to buffet him. The word "buffet" means to strike repeatedly as waves would buffet the shore.

How did this demonic force continually strike Paul? Traditionally it has been taught that it was with sickness, and the thing that made many accept that is the use of the words "weakness" and "infirmity" in verses 9 and 10. Infirmity definitely does mean sickness and is used that way in 1 Timothy 5:23, but that is not the only meaning of the word. The number two definition is any lack or inadequacy. For instance, Romans 8:26 says, "the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities." In this case, the context makes it clear that it is not speaking of sicknesses but rather, not knowing what to pray for. Out finite minds are an infirmity or an inadequacy.

If we look at the context of Paul's thorn in the flesh, we find that infirmity does not mean sickness in 2 Corinthians 12:9 and 10. In 2 Corinthians 11:30, Paul uses the exact terminology of "glorying in infirmities" that is used just a few verses later in speaking about this thorn. In the eleventh chapter he had just finished listing what those infirmities were. In verses 23-29, he lists such things as imprisonment, stripes, shipwrecks, and stonings; none of these speak of sickness. Verse 27 mentions weakness and painfulness, which some have tried to make mean sickness, but it is just as possible he could have been weary and suffered painfulness from such things as being stoned and left for dead (Acts 14:19). All these things listed in 2 Corinthians 11 refer to persecutions as infirmities. So, in context, Paul's thorn was a demonic angel or messenger sent by Satan which continually stirred up persecution against him. This is also verified by three Old Testament references (Num. 33:55; Josh. 23:13; Judges 2:3) where people are spoken of as being "thorns in your sides" and "thorns in your eyes."

Paul asked the Lord to remove persecution from him, not sickness, and the Lord told him His grace was sufficient. We are not redeemed from persecution, and Paul later stated that when he said in 2 Timothy 3:12, "all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution." Most gladly, therefore, he gloried in persecutions, reproaches, necessities, and distresses that the power of Christ might rest upon him (2 Cor. 12:9). The word "glory" is an old English word which means to have dominion over or command. It is used in Exodus 8:9 where Moses told Pharaoh to glory over him or command him when to destroy the frogs. So when Paul spoke of glorying in these infirmities or persecutions, he was speaking of victory even in the midst of continual harassment.

In Acts 14:19, Paul was stoned and left for dead, but God raised him up and the next day he walked at least twenty miles into the next town and started preaching again. The Lord did not stop the persecution, but God's strength was certainly made perfect in Paul's weakness (verse 9). Can you imagine what those that stoned him must have thought? They could see Paul's humanity in the cuts and bruises, but they could also see the supernatural strength of God flowing through him. "For when I am weak, then am I strong" (verse 10).

There are two other passages of scripture that those who believe Paul's thorn in the flesh was sickness have tried to use to verify that. One is Galatians 4:13-15. Here Paul says that he preached the gospel to these Galatians through infirmity of flesh and in verse 15 he makes reference to these people being willing to poke out their own eyes and give them to him. From this, I have heard ministers preach that Paul's thorn was a rare, ancient disease which was characterized by runny, puffy eyes. But let us look at whom Paul was speaking to when he said this. He was writing to the people who lived in the region known as Galatia, which had as its major cities, Derbe, Lystra, and Iconium. The instance we mentioned earlier, where Paul was stoned and left for dead, happened in Lystra, a city of Galatia. The next day Paul walked to Derbe, another city of Galatia, and began preaching unto them. I'm sure he had runny, puffy eyes, along with a multiple cuts and bruises, but they were not the result of some disease. They were the result of having just been stoned. He also says in verse 13 that his infirmity was "at the first," which leaves the impression it was only a temporary thing that he recovered from.

The next scripture used to say Paul's thorn was bad eyes is also in Galatians, chapter 6, verse 11. It says, "Ye see how large a letter I have written unto you with mine own hand." People have said Paul's eyes were so bad that he had to write in large letters and this is what he was making reference to. That is only a supposition and not a very good one at that. It is a lot more credible to believe that he was simply referring to the long letter he had written to the Galatians.

The reason it is so important to realize that the thorn in the flesh was not something which Jesus died to redeem us from, such as sickness, is so that we won't submit ourselves to these things. James 4:7 says, "Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you." We have to resist, or actively fight against, the devil and the things he brings to see them flee. Satan has used traditional teaching about Paul's thorn to bring many Christians to a place of submitting to him. But, praise God, you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free.

Tradition has taught us for many years that Paul was chronically sick, and that interpretation of events seems to creep into many of the ‘word studies’ and translations that we have available.

The beatings and stonings that Paul suffered could easily be considered a part of his ‘infirmities’ and it seems that this is precisely what he was referring to in Galatians 4:13. It is very probable that he was referring to being stoned in their region and the subsequent recovering from those wounds (Acts 14:19).

Concerning the issue of Paul’s exaltation, whether it be self induced or not, we could point to the following:

Pr 16:18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.
Pr 29:23 A man's pride shall bring him low: but honour shall uphold the humble in spirit.

No doubt Satan was aware of this principle. If Paul’s pride were an issue it would have been better for Satan to not send a ‘messenger’ to buffet him. Paul’s own pride would have destroyed his ministry far more quickly than Satan’s persecutions. But, if the ‘exalted message’ was the issue, then the continual buffetings would have been Satan’s only recourse in slowing the preaching of the gospel.

This tactic seems to have taken its toll on Paul’s reputation.

1Co 4:10 We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised.

2Co 10:10 For his letters, say they, are weighty and powerful; but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech contemptible.

And Paul mentions his ‘buffetings.’

1Co 4:11 Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace;

This is the same Greek word, ‘buffet,’ that is found in the passage in 2 Cor. 12:7. It doesn’t appear to be referring to sicknesses in this context, but rather the hardships that accompanied his daily existence.

If indeed this passage is referring to God actively allowing such a thing in Paul’s life to keep him humble, then we open up a rather large can of theological worms. We have God working in tandem with Satan for the good of one of his children. This would contradict many other truths that are revealed to us in the New Testament, some of which Paul himself attests to.

Paul didn’t believe that Satan was a instrument of God for the perfecting of the saints.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Paul declared that the man of God would and could be perfected for every good work by the Word alone. This is confirmed in other passages. It is interesting that in this same passage a few verses earlier Paul spoke again of his afflictions.

2Ti 3:10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience, 11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me. 12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

It is interesting that Paul gives the glory to God for delivering him from such afflictions (‘My grace is sufficient’) but there is no hint that Paul attributes these persecutions to God’s ‘mysterious ways’ of using the devil to perfect him! He then ends the chapter with the verses about the power of the Word to perfect us.

When we continue to look at the totality of Paul’s life and teachings, we can find no evidence that God was actively permitting the messenger of Satan to buffet him to keep him humble. He never attributes his afflictions to God in any other letter, nor is there a hint of resignation to the fact that God was behind his troubles. However he does refer on several occasions to the work of the enemy in his life and the power of God that delivered him.

2Ti 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:

2Ti 4:17 Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and that all the Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion. 18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Even at the end of his life Paul was referring to his afflictions as ‘evil works,’ the work of the ‘lion,’ and that God had been faithful to deliver him from these works, not into them.

For all of these reasons we continue to believe that the ‘thorn in the flesh’ was not from God and was not a chronic sickness as many believe
 
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Many people have misunderstood what Paul was saying with regard to the subject of the thorn in the flesh from 2 Cor. 12. Let's take a fresh look at this and begin with what Paul said.

"And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong." - 2 Corinthians 12:7-10

This thorn in the flesh that Paul mentioned has been used and misused by Christians to justify submitting to nearly any problem that comes along. Satan has twisted this passage of scripture to deceive many, many people into believing that God would not heal Paul, so how can they expect to be healed?

First of all, this "thorn" came because of the abundance of revelations Paul had received. Until a person has an abundance of revelations, similar to what Paul had, he is not going to have a "thorn." That would disqualify just about all of those who have been hiding behind Paul's thorn.

Then, verse 7 says it came lest Paul should be exalted above measure. Traditionally, that has been interpreted to say the thorn was to keep Paul humble. Therefore, God had to be the author of it, because only God would want Paul to be humble. But there is a godly way of being exalted. First Peter 5:6 says, "Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time." Those who submit (humble) themselves to God will be exalted by God. Paul was not speaking of exalting himself above measure through pride, but rather, the thorn came from Satan to keep Paul from being exalted by God in the eyes of the people. Many more people would have received what Paul preached if everything was always "rosy" for him. But there was this messenger of Satan who always buffeted Paul and scared away the faint-hearted from committing themselves to Jesus, whom Paul preached.

God magnified, or exalted, Joshua in the sight of his people (Josh. 3:7). He continued to do that with the people He used on into the new covenant (Acts 5:13). So, we see that the exalting spoken of is not a negative kind but a godly kind. That just further strengthens the fact that the thorn was not God's doing.

In verse 7, right after the thorn in the flesh is mentioned, there is a phrase set off by commas which says, "the messenger of Satan to buffet me." This is an explanation of what the thorn was. It was not a thing but rather, a demonic messenger. The word used as "messenger" here is always translated as angel or messenger and refers to a created being. So, Paul's thorn was literally a demon sent from Satan to buffet him. The word "buffet" means to strike repeatedly as waves would buffet the shore.

How did this demonic force continually strike Paul? Traditionally it has been taught that it was with sickness, and the thing that made many accept that is the use of the words "weakness" and "infirmity" in verses 9 and 10. Infirmity definitely does mean sickness and is used that way in 1 Timothy 5:23, but that is not the only meaning of the word. The number two definition is any lack or inadequacy. For instance, Romans 8:26 says, "the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities." In this case, the context makes it clear that it is not speaking of sicknesses but rather, not knowing what to pray for. Out finite minds are an infirmity or an inadequacy.

If we look at the context of Paul's thorn in the flesh, we find that infirmity does not mean sickness in 2 Corinthians 12:9 and 10. In 2 Corinthians 11:30, Paul uses the exact terminology of "glorying in infirmities" that is used just a few verses later in speaking about this thorn. In the eleventh chapter he had just finished listing what those infirmities were. In verses 23-29, he lists such things as imprisonment, stripes, shipwrecks, and stonings; none of these speak of sickness. Verse 27 mentions weakness and painfulness, which some have tried to make mean sickness, but it is just as possible he could have been weary and suffered painfulness from such things as being stoned and left for dead (Acts 14:19). All these things listed in 2 Corinthians 11 refer to persecutions as infirmities. So, in context, Paul's thorn was a demonic angel or messenger sent by Satan which continually stirred up persecution against him. This is also verified by three Old Testament references (Num. 33:55; Josh. 23:13; Judges 2:3) where people are spoken of as being "thorns in your sides" and "thorns in your eyes."

Paul asked the Lord to remove persecution from him, not sickness, and the Lord told him His grace was sufficient. We are not redeemed from persecution, and Paul later stated that when he said in 2 Timothy 3:12, "all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution." Most gladly, therefore, he gloried in persecutions, reproaches, necessities, and distresses that the power of Christ might rest upon him (2 Cor. 12:9). The word "glory" is an old English word which means to have dominion over or command. It is used in Exodus 8:9 where Moses told Pharaoh to glory over him or command him when to destroy the frogs. So when Paul spoke of glorying in these infirmities or persecutions, he was speaking of victory even in the midst of continual harassment.

In Acts 14:19, Paul was stoned and left for dead, but God raised him up and the next day he walked at least twenty miles into the next town and started preaching again. The Lord did not stop the persecution, but God's strength was certainly made perfect in Paul's weakness (verse 9). Can you imagine what those that stoned him must have thought? They could see Paul's humanity in the cuts and bruises, but they could also see the supernatural strength of God flowing through him. "For when I am weak, then am I strong" (verse 10).

There are two other passages of scripture that those who believe Paul's thorn in the flesh was sickness have tried to use to verify that. One is Galatians 4:13-15. Here Paul says that he preached the gospel to these Galatians through infirmity of flesh and in verse 15 he makes reference to these people being willing to poke out their own eyes and give them to him. From this, I have heard ministers preach that Paul's thorn was a rare, ancient disease which was characterized by runny, puffy eyes. But let us look at whom Paul was speaking to when he said this. He was writing to the people who lived in the region known as Galatia, which had as its major cities, Derbe, Lystra, and Iconium. The instance we mentioned earlier, where Paul was stoned and left for dead, happened in Lystra, a city of Galatia. The next day Paul walked to Derbe, another city of Galatia, and began preaching unto them. I'm sure he had runny, puffy eyes, along with a multiple cuts and bruises, but they were not the result of some disease. They were the result of having just been stoned. He also says in verse 13 that his infirmity was "at the first," which leaves the impression it was only a temporary thing that he recovered from.

The next scripture used to say Paul's thorn was bad eyes is also in Galatians, chapter 6, verse 11. It says, "Ye see how large a letter I have written unto you with mine own hand." People have said Paul's eyes were so bad that he had to write in large letters and this is what he was making reference to. That is only a supposition and not a very good one at that. It is a lot more credible to believe that he was simply referring to the long letter he had written to the Galatians.

The reason it is so important to realize that the thorn in the flesh was not something which Jesus died to redeem us from, such as sickness, is so that we won't submit ourselves to these things. James 4:7 says, "Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you." We have to resist, or actively fight against, the devil and the things he brings to see them flee. Satan has used traditional teaching about Paul's thorn to bring many Christians to a place of submitting to him. But, praise God, you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free.

Tradition has taught us for many years that Paul was chronically sick, and that interpretation of events seems to creep into many of the ‘word studies’ and translations that we have available.

The beatings and stonings that Paul suffered could easily be considered a part of his ‘infirmities’ and it seems that this is precisely what he was referring to in Galatians 4:13. It is very probable that he was referring to being stoned in their region and the subsequent recovering from those wounds (Acts 14:19).

Concerning the issue of Paul’s exaltation, whether it be self induced or not, we could point to the following:

Pr 16:18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.
Pr 29:23 A man's pride shall bring him low: but honour shall uphold the humble in spirit.

No doubt Satan was aware of this principle. If Paul’s pride were an issue it would have been better for Satan to not send a ‘messenger’ to buffet him. Paul’s own pride would have destroyed his ministry far more quickly than Satan’s persecutions. But, if the ‘exalted message’ was the issue, then the continual buffetings would have been Satan’s only recourse in slowing the preaching of the gospel.

This tactic seems to have taken its toll on Paul’s reputation.

1Co 4:10 We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised.

2Co 10:10 For his letters, say they, are weighty and powerful; but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech contemptible.

And Paul mentions his ‘buffetings.’

1Co 4:11 Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace;

This is the same Greek word, ‘buffet,’ that is found in the passage in 2 Cor. 12:7. It doesn’t appear to be referring to sicknesses in this context, but rather the hardships that accompanied his daily existence.

If indeed this passage is referring to God actively allowing such a thing in Paul’s life to keep him humble, then we open up a rather large can of theological worms. We have God working in tandem with Satan for the good of one of his children. This would contradict many other truths that are revealed to us in the New Testament, some of which Paul himself attests to.

Paul didn’t believe that Satan was a instrument of God for the perfecting of the saints.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Paul declared that the man of God would and could be perfected for every good work by the Word alone. This is confirmed in other passages. It is interesting that in this same passage a few verses earlier Paul spoke again of his afflictions.

2Ti 3:10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience, 11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me. 12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

It is interesting that Paul gives the glory to God for delivering him from such afflictions (‘My grace is sufficient’) but there is no hint that Paul attributes these persecutions to God’s ‘mysterious ways’ of using the devil to perfect him! He then ends the chapter with the verses about the power of the Word to perfect us.

When we continue to look at the totality of Paul’s life and teachings, we can find no evidence that God was actively permitting the messenger of Satan to buffet him to keep him humble. He never attributes his afflictions to God in any other letter, nor is there a hint of resignation to the fact that God was behind his troubles. However he does refer on several occasions to the work of the enemy in his life and the power of God that delivered him.

2Ti 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:

2Ti 4:17 Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and that all the Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion. 18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Even at the end of his life Paul was referring to his afflictions as ‘evil works,’ the work of the ‘lion,’ and that God had been faithful to deliver him from these works, not into them.

For all of these reasons we continue to believe that the ‘thorn in the flesh’ was not from God and was not a chronic sickness as many believe
Nice job. Good lesson.
 
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Strong in Him

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Satan has twisted this passage of scripture to deceive many, many people into believing that God would not heal Paul, so how can they expect to be healed?
I don't know about what other people say, I would say;
i) that Satan also deceives people into thinking they can expect to be healed - i.e. have a right. If it doesn't happen at the time, and in the way, that people want, he then accuses them: "you don't have enough faith", "you have sinned too badly", etc.
ii) that whatever the thorn was (and I tend to think it probably was an illness) the point was that Paul asked for it to be taken away and it wasn't. That says to me that God heals in his own time, or allows things for a reason. Neither of which have been accepted, over the years, by the "God always heals everybody" brigade.
First of all, this "thorn" came because of the abundance of revelations Paul had received. Until a person has an abundance of revelations, similar to what Paul had, he is not going to have a "thorn." That would disqualify just about all of those who have been hiding behind Paul's thorn.
Plenty of Christians, who have not had half of Paul's revelations, have had their own thorns to deal with; incurable cancer, bereavement, the loss of children - either literally or from the faith - and so on.

Then, verse 7 says it came lest Paul should be exalted above measure. Traditionally, that has been interpreted to say the thorn was to keep Paul humble. Therefore, God had to be the author of it, because only God would want Paul to be humble.
Personally, I believe there is a difference between God sending something and God allowing something.
James tells us that every good and perfect present is from God, James 1:17. Sickness is neither good nor perfect. God was never the author of sickness - he did not create it, it came into the world after the fall. After Adam and Eve listened to Satan rather than obeying God.
But there's no doubt that some Christians are not miraculously healed the moment that they are prayed for. David Watson died from cancer, Joni Eareckson is still in a wheelchair and it was 8 long years before Jennifer Rees-Larcombe was healed. In my case, it was 18.
Whatever his reasons, God can, and sometimes does, say "wait." Personally I learnt many things during my 18 years with M.E. And did many things, like training as a preacher, only in God's strength. HE got the glory for those things because, of myself, I had no strength.
Many more people would have received what Paul preached if everything was always "rosy" for him. But there was this messenger of Satan who always buffeted Paul and scared away the faint-hearted from committing themselves to Jesus, whom Paul preached.
I believe the Holy Spirit is way stronger than Satan, and is very capable of drawing people to Jesus - with, or without, suffering.
God magnified, or exalted, Joshua in the sight of his people (Josh. 3:7). He continued to do that with the people He used on into the new covenant (Acts 5:13). So, we see that the exalting spoken of is not a negative kind but a godly kind. That just further strengthens the fact that the thorn was not God's doing.
It wasn't his doing, but he didn't take it away; that's the point.

In verse 7, right after the thorn in the flesh is mentioned, there is a phrase set off by commas which says, "the messenger of Satan to buffet me." This is an explanation of what the thorn was. It was not a thing but rather, a demonic messenger.
It was certainly demonic, being from Satan.

The word used as "messenger" here is always translated as angel or messenger and refers to a created being. So, Paul's thorn was literally a demon sent from Satan to buffet him.
So why didn't Paul - who taught about Spiritual warfare and himself drove out demons - drive it away?
You don't plead with God to drive out a demon, you rebuke/drive it out in the name of Jesus who is stronger than all the powers of darkness, and who triumphed over them by the cross, Colossians 2:15.

Traditionally it has been taught that it was with sickness, and the thing that made many accept that is the use of the words "weakness" and "infirmity" in verses 9 and 10.
Personally, I think it probably was.
We know Paul was ill during his ministry/travels. He told the Galatians that he only preached to them because he was sick, Galatians 4:13. A few verses he later he says that they "would have torn out their eyes and given them to him, if they had been able", Galatians 4:15. So it would seem that, one problem at least, was with his eyesight. Indeed, at the end of the letter he says, "see what large letters I write as I write to you with my own hand." Galatians 6:11.
He also took his own doctor with him on his travels.
So yes, infirmity may mean "weakness" or "lack", but it does also mean sickness - as some people have pointed out when they've quoted Isaiah 53:4.
Paul asked the Lord to remove persecution from him, not sickness, and the Lord told him His grace was sufficient.
Maybe.
But God's grace is also sufficient for us in sickness - even if he doesn't remove it when we ask him to.

We are not redeemed from persecution,
Some Christians are, and have been, though.
There are two other passages of scripture that those who believe Paul's thorn in the flesh was sickness have tried to use to verify that. One is Galatians 4:13-15. Here Paul says that he preached the gospel to these Galatians through infirmity of flesh and in verse 15 he makes reference to these people being willing to poke out their own eyes and give them to him. From this, I have heard ministers preach that Paul's thorn was a rare, ancient disease which was characterized by runny, puffy eyes.
It may have been.
I have been in debates with Christians on these forums who do not want to consider that Paul's illness could have been sickness, because that spoils their "God always heals everyone" doctrine.
But let us look at whom Paul was speaking to when he said this. He was writing to the people who lived in the region known as Galatia, which had as its major cities, Derbe, Lystra, and Iconium. The instance we mentioned earlier, where Paul was stoned and left for dead, happened in Lystra, a city of Galatia. The next day Paul walked to Derbe, another city of Galatia, and began preaching unto them. I'm sure he had runny, puffy eyes, along with a multiple cuts and bruises, but they were not the result of some disease.
You know for a fact what Paul's medical history was?
The next scripture used to say Paul's thorn was bad eyes is also in Galatians, chapter 6, verse 11. It says, "Ye see how large a letter I have written unto you with mine own hand." People have said Paul's eyes were so bad that he had to write in large letters and this is what he was making reference to. That is only a supposition and not a very good one at that. It is a lot more credible to believe that he was simply referring to the long letter he had written to the Galatians.
It was a short one by Paul's standards - consider Romans, Ephesians and 1 and 2 Corinthians.
The reason it is so important to realize that the thorn in the flesh was not something which Jesus died to redeem us from, such as sickness, is so that we won't submit ourselves to these things.
Sorry, but if you're trying to say that some Christians are sick because they "submit to it", that is untrue, unkind and way too simplistic.
David Watson died from cancer, in spite of being prayed for by John Wimber, and others with a healing ministry, who rebuked it and said it would go.
Jennifer Rees-Larcombe has written about how she used to believe that a Christian should not "give in" to sickness; just rebuke it and it will go away. Then she became ill with encephalitis and M.E. and discovered that - though many people rebuked the illness, stood with her in faith, and she called the elders of the church to pray, it did not "go away." God miraculously healed her - 8 years later, when she had stopped seeking him just for healing and was concentrating on being with, learning from and serving him. My illness was not as bad as Jennifer's but I have a similar testimony - when I stopped seeking God only for healing, he healed me.
Personally, I believe in both cases it was so that HE would get the glory, and not any human healer, or particular doctrine.
Tradition has taught us for many years that Paul was chronically sick, and that interpretation of events seems to creep into many of the ‘word studies’ and translations that we have available.
And I'm afraid that some people don't want to consider that he could have been sick and God said "wait" to him - because it upsets their theology.
For all of these reasons we continue to believe that the ‘thorn in the flesh’ was not from God and was not a chronic sickness as many believe
It certainly wasn't FROM God, and it may have been sickness - but God was in control.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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My position on healing is that healing is included in the atonement. Jesus suffered to relieve us of our sicknesses. It is, therefore, a matter of faith and confession to thank Him for what He did for us with His stripes. Because "by His stripes, we were healed." Regardless of the outcome of that faith, we must hold fast to the confession of our faith, even if we never realize that healing. Faith pleases God. We have no choice but to believe that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. Regardless of what happens. I will do as the Heb 11 believers did. Many of them never received the promise. If I never receive healing. I will still testify of His redemptive work for me. What people miss is that this is not about us. It is not about our healing. It is about the suffering Jesus endured for us, and not denying or diminishing it. Get our eyes off us and our "faith" and get our eyes on Him and what He did. Lord, give me strength and courage to stand up for Jesus and His work. He has healed us. He heals all of our diseases. He born our sicknesses. He did this. I will not deny His work. It is not about me, or you. It is about honoring His work and the sacrifice He made for us.
Amen, and thank you, Lord, that we have been redeemed from the curse of the law, including all the sicknesses and diseases found in those curses and also the ones not found in the curses. Therefore I will not die but live, and declare the works of the Lord!
 
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Strong in Him

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My position on healing is that healing is included in the atonement. Jesus suffered to relieve us of our sicknesses.
Jesus died to reconcile us to God - the 2nd Adam. And to make forgiveness and eternal life possible.
If good health was guaranteed at the cross, no Christian who had been saved would become ill. And we'd probably find lots of non Christians in church, all seeking healing. In fact, evangelism would be easy, and there'd be lots of converts.

It also suggests that anyone who rejected Jesus, and the cross, would become ill.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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Jesus died to reconcile us to God - the 2nd Adam. And to make forgiveness and eternal life possible.
If good health was guaranteed at the cross, no Christian who had been saved would become ill. And we'd probably find lots of non Christians in church, all seeking healing. In fact, evangelism would be easy, and there'd be lots of converts.

It also suggests that anyone who rejected Jesus, and the cross, would become ill.
Pretty good passage in 1 Corin 11 that points out exactly why many believers are sick, weak, and die young.

1 Corinthians 11:28-30 KJV
28. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

This "worthiness" has nothing to do with sin. It has to do with understanding why the body of Jesus was beaten, bruised, and hanged on a tree.
People who fail to "discern the Lord's body," that is, understand that Jesus suffered in his body for our sickness, weakness, and untimely death, may experience those very things. We are to hold to His suffering for our sickness. We are told to declare His works, so that we will live and not die. For by His stripes (on his body), we are healed.
So it is possible to endure sickness, weakness, and untimely death if we are either ignorant or deny His body.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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Jesus died to reconcile us to God - the 2nd Adam. And to make forgiveness and eternal life possible.
If good health was guaranteed at the cross, no Christian who had been saved would become ill. And we'd probably find lots of non Christians in church, all seeking healing. In fact, evangelism would be easy, and there'd be lots of converts.

It also suggests that anyone who rejected Jesus, and the cross, would become ill.
Healing is part of the Atonement, and will have its fulfillment when we are resurrected to our glorified bodies in which there will be no illness or disability. What is more important in this life is that souls be saved by the finished work of the Cross as described by Isaiah 53. The sacrifice of Jesus was fulfilled at Calvary, and the full healing according to the Atonement will be fulfilled at the general resurrection of the saints.

Because Jesus is God as well as man, His miraculous ministry was quite different to what we as ordinary humans can achieve. Therefore, because we are not God/human in the same way Jesus is, we cannot do the miracles that Jesus did. The best example of an effective Holy Spirit ministry is that of Paul. When we study his ministry we see the possibilities and limitations of human ministry empowered by the Holy Spirit. We see that Paul did not heal everyone, but the Holy Spirit worked miracles in order to turn pagans to Christ. We don't see that Paul had mass healing meetings, nor did he promise guaranteed healing to the Christians to whom he ministered and taught.

Although we see a gift of healing listed with the gifts of the Spirit in 1 Corinthians 12, we don't see every person having that gift on demand. It is a gift given by the Holy Spirit as He wills, to selected people according to the call of God on them. We can ask the same question as "Are all apostles? Are all prophets. Do all speak in tongues?" We can ask the same question as "Do all have the gift of healing?" Just because someone like Todd Bentley, Todd White, or Kenneth Copeland claim to have the gift of healing, doesn't mean that they actually have it. The evidence shows that none of these men actually have it, because in the main, nothing happens when they pray for people for healing. If a person has the gift of healing, then it should happen when that person prays.

We see in Mark 16 that "these signs shall follow those who believe...they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover." However, when we study the ministry of Paul as the example of a true believer in that context, we see that he did not heal multitudes in the way Jesus did. Healing happened selectively, and the result was that many people turned to Christ as a result. Nowhere do I see that Paul healed anyone on request.

So, the bottom line is that people, usually unconverted, are healed through the sovereignty of God, and for the purpose of showing the unconverted that Jesus Christ really did rise from the dead and is alive.
 
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mwallie

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Satans permission to attack Job manifested in sickness.
For starters, Job wasn't under aby covenant with God at the time. We are today thoigg
I wonder if the reason we dont see frequent healings and/or even miracles is we have lost true touch with the Spirit.

I dont mean this as a knock on anyone but rather an observation. And to clarify I am talking about true healing, not fake nonsense that charlatans perform to fool the masses.

Jesus and the Apostles operated under the full sway of the Spirit. Well Jesus did for sure. I always speak of the man in Acts 3. Jesus would have undoubtedly walked by him many times but never healed him, why? Because it wasnt the right time. The man in John 5 was lame for 38 years, yet it was always the Fathers will to heal him. Just wasnt the right time. The blind man had been born blind, yet Jesus didnt heal him until a certain time. Lazarus was sick and died. Jesus could have prevented that death, Jesus could have called him forth before he began to decay but that wasnt the Fathers plan.

So I wonder if we get so caught up on healing is (as one person put it) "on demand" that we forget the other very important part of that equation, working within the will (which includes the timing) of the Father.
Yeah I think what you said definitely has something to do with it. I just can't help but feel as if most have taken "in his time" too far and thus have become complacent.
 
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ByTheSpirit

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For starters, Job wasn't under aby covenant with God at the time. We are today thoigg

Yeah I think what you said definitely has something to do with it. I just can't help but feel as if most have taken "in his time" too far and thus have become complacent.
Oh for sure, complacency can result. Truth be told, it's probably best to try and minister healing every time with the understanding that it may not be that time, and that's ok. Keep the faith.
 
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