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Featured Are Preterists understanding 'this generation' correctly in the Discourse?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by DavidPT, Jul 10, 2019.

  1. Willie T

    Willie T St. Petersburg Vineyard

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    This is the "personal interpretation" I spoke of just above. Usually pure opinion and speculation.
     
  2. Maria Billingsley

    Maria Billingsley Well-Known Member Supporter

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    In reverse, it would be silly that Jesus would be speaking to the very people that asked Him this question.

    And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

    He would not give them an answer that pertained to some generation in the far future. Using biblical exegesis without the lens of futurism, will give you an opportunity to see this passage in a partial Preterist perspective. You may also consider that the destruction of the Temple is what started the "new age" . Judaism as they knew it ended. Also of note, Christ said this:

    Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

    When comparing scripture with scripture, you can see the parallel between Matthew 24 and 16.

    Blessings
     
  3. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

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    I did indicate it would only be silly IF what Jesus was talking about surrounding that verse had to do with His return and the end of the age, while at the same time applying this generation to the generation they were living in at the time. That would make the part about this generation entirely out of context. Had He said the part about this generation earlier on in the Discourse though, like right after He mentions the parts having to do with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, there wouldn't even be a debate as far as I'm concerned.

    Maybe something like such. Assuming the verses below involve what ultimately occurred in 70 AD.

    Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
    21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
    22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
    23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
    24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations----Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.


    So in my mind anyway, it clearly matters where Jesus said what He said about this generation in the Discourse.

    The way some of you try and get around this, everything in the Discourse involved the generation they were living in at the time. But if some of us others are interpreting the Discourse to span more than just 40 years post Jesus giving the Discourse, it indeed matters where in the Discourse He initially mentions the part about this generation.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2019
  4. dqhall

    dqhall Well-Known Member Supporter

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    ThIt may help to study
    Jesus spoke about his second coming:

    Matthew 24:36 (WEB - Public Domain) But no one knows of that day and hour, not even the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 "As the days of Noah were, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For as in those days which were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ship, 39 and they didn't know until the flood came, and took them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

    If Jesus did not know the day or the hour of his return, Peter and the apostles would not have known either.

    Peter and Paul lived during a time of increasing persecution. They may have seen evidence of a world so bad, they knew it might not be saved. They were nearing the ends of their mortal lives. Some may think that Christians who will die will sleep until the second coming of Christ and the resurrection of the dead.

    Some historical texts described the Roman emperor Nero as a mad man. After a fire burnt part of Rome in 64 AD, he blamed the fire on Christians. He sought them out for execution using cruel ways of killing them.
    The Great Fire of Rome | Background | Secrets of the Dead | PBS

    In 66 AD the Jews revolted against the Romans in what is now Israel. The war raged on until the Romans trapped Jews attending the Passover festival by encompassing the city of Jerusalem with their army. The Romans built siege walls around the city to prevent their escape. People were starving. In 70 AD the Romans broke through the walls killing many of those who had not already died of hunger. They tooks some of the young as slaves. They stole the Temple menorah. This is displayed on the victory Arch of Titus in Rome that remains to this day.

    The first century Jewish historian Josephus wrote about the siege of Jerusalem in his book, "The Wars of the Jews..." During this time Jesus' prophecy about the destruction of the temple was fulfilled.
     
  5. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

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    What I'm unable to grasp, as to the logic in it, why anyone would be applying the day which knoweth no man, to that of what took place in 70 AD? This is similar to Pretrib reasoning. Assuming Pretrib, this would indicate there are 7 years or so left until the 2nd coming, thus it shouldn't be difficult to pretty much guess when He might return.

    In the same way, if what Jesus said in the Discourse about this generation was meaning their generation, obviously we are looking at a 40 year window at most. Why then would no man know the day and hour of this event? Not only does the text indicate no man knows, but neither the Son, nor neither the angels in heaven, but only the Father. Why keep this info hidden from the angels? Why would they not need to know the day and hour these events are initially going to take place? There's no logic to any of this if some of these others posting in here are correct about all of these things. I'm sure they they are correct about some of it though. But all of it? I'm just not seeing it if they are.
     
  6. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    I don't know of anyone, even preterists, who claims to know the exact day or hour.
     
  7. dqhall

    dqhall Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The 70 AD fall of Jerusalem was preceded by Jerusalem being surrounded by the Roman army. Jesus had warned his disciples that when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies know that it’s desolation is near (Luke 21). People were not supposed to return to their homes to pack their belongings, but to flee immediately. According to the Christian historian Eusebius, Christians in Jerusalem remembered Jesus’ prophecy and fled to Pella in the mountains east of the Jordan River after learning of the Roman army’s approach.

    I recall a verse, “There will be wars and rumors of wars ... but these are not the sign of the end (Matthew 24). The destruction of Jerusalem the second temple was not a sign of the second coming.

    Some Biblical prophesy was fulfilled, some has not been fulfilled.
     
  8. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    False prophets and wars and rumors of war would come, but the end was still to come.
    There were false prophets and wars in the decades leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70ad.

    Matthew 24:4-6 Jesus answered, “See to it that no one deceives you. For many will come in My name, claiming, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. These things must happen, but the end is still to come

    The end would come when the gospel of the kingdom would be preached in all the world.

    matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come

    The greek word for world in the matthew 24:14 is oikoumene, which is properly understood as the inhabited roman world.

    oikoumené (properly: the land that is being inhabited, the land in a state of habitation), the inhabited world, that is, the Roman world, for all outside it was regarded as of no account.

    As paul states in Colossians, the gospel had been proclaimed in all creation under heaven. Colossians is also believed to have been written somewhere in 58-62ad, which would have been just prior to the Jewish Roman war leading up to the temple's destruction.

    Colossians 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.

    Thus I would argue the end in reference is the complete removal and of the old covenant system via the destruction of the temple . While the old covenant had been made obsolete by the cross, it was still present and was in fact fading and ready to vanish in the 1st century.

    2 Corinthians 3:10-11 Indeed, in this case, what once had glory has come to have no glory at all, because of the glory that surpasses it. For if what IS BEING brought (present tense) to an end came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory.

    Hebrews 8:13 speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
     
  9. Aquila0121

    Aquila0121 Brother In Christ

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    I believe that Christ came in judgment against Jerusalem, within that generation, just as He promised.

    However, I believe a still future judgment of the nations, and perhaps even the world, can be expected. If Jesus judged Jerusalem so harshly for rejecting the Gospel, will He not judge other nations, communities, and entities that reject the Gospel in like fashion? I see the first century judgment on Jerusalem as an archetype of how God judges a people. We might see reflections of the first century judgment on Jerusalem should God judge America or this world's current system.

    I know of a man who is indeed a prophet, though he'd never call himself such. He spoke a prophesy against the City of Dayton OH for hosting a KKK Rally on May 25th and Gay Pride events, scheduled on May 31st through June 2nd. He warned that God was going to send "winds of judgment" and spoke about the "winds roaring" and how Dayton would feel "the coming storm". Well, on May 27th... the City of Dayton was hit by a rare EF4 tornado that completely wiped out a local sex district with a strip club called, The Living Room, and several other businesses catering to adult entertainment. The tornado ripped through our community leaving a gash of destruction across the city, and communities North of Downtown Dayton without power and water days. Most of our church fellowship was in shock. Even the man who spoke the prophesy was in shock. Sadly, there was no repentance or indication of humility from the community at large. In fact, they continued on with the Gay Pride events and raised money to help those devastated by the storm. Which, isn't too bad. But I firmly believe that Dayton missed the hour of its visitation.

    Dayton KKK Rally
    KKK to Hold Rally in Dayton - The Clarion

    Dayton Gay Pride Festival
    Your guide to Dayton PRIDE 2019

    Dayton-area tornado upgraded to rare, violent EF4
    Dayton-area tornado upgraded to rare, violent EF4

    When Jesus makes an appearance in the clouds... He doesn't play.
     
  10. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    Hello David.

    There are two separate prophetic events listed in Luke's account (Luke 21). The first event is the desolation of the temple and the nation of Israel (Luke 21:20-24). Then the second event is the end of the world (Luke 21:25-27).

    Why people cannot see the two separate events in Luke 21 is beyond understanding.
     
  11. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    There are indeed two judgments, one for Israel and one for the entire world. This is not hard to see in Luke's account.
     
  12. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    This is correct, I gave you an agree tick.
    Excepting that Luke 21:25-26 refers to the next to happen event; the great Day of the Lord's fiery wrath, not the end of the world; as it never ends. Just the end of our modern civilization.
    Then; a few years later, about 10-15 years, we will see the coming of the Son of Man in His glory.
     
  13. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

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    And verse 32 in that same chapter, that is being applied to the 2nd event, not the 1st event. Yet verse 32 is indirectly connected with the first event, in this manner only---till all be fulfilled. Which would obviously have to include the 1st and 2nd events. BTW, I'm adding to what you said, not disputing anything you said, yet you might not be in full agreement with everything I added for all I know.
     
  14. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

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    Am I misunderstanding something here? I was under the impression Preterists applied that to the 70 AD judgment. From the looks of your post here, I have to wonder if I have been misunderstanding the Preterist position on this altogether. Are you applying it to the 2nd coming then?
     
  15. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Preterist believe the year was 70ad, as that is when the temple fell. But preterists don’t claim to know the exact day or hour of the parousia(presence) of Christ judging Israel.
     
  16. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    You mentioned 'Preterism', which is confusing to say the least as there are two very different versions of Preterism.

    1) Partial Preterism is generally considered to be the historic orthodox interpretation as it affirms all eschatological points of the ecumenical Creeds of the Church. Some partial Preterists may believe that the Antichrist, the Great Tribulation, and the advent of the Day of the Lord were not historically fulfilled. (wikipedia)

    2) Full Preterism differs from partial preterism in that full Preterists believe that the destruction of Jerusalem fulfilled all eschatological or "end times" events, including the resurrection of the dead and Jesus' Second Coming, or Parousia, and the Final Judgment. (wikipedia)
     
  17. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

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    I did say the following in the OP-----Not all Preterists are full Preterists. Some are Partial Preterists. So meaning any Preterist, whether full or partial, who applies 'this generation shall not pass', to that of events taking place in the first century, mainly involving 70 AD.


    The OP is mainly dealing with what did Jesus mean by 'this generation' in the Discourse. I am of the opinion that it matters where He said that in the Discourse, and what context He said in it. My view is that He said it in 2nd coming context. Thus He was not applying it to the generation they were living in at the time.
     
  18. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Occurrences in the Gospels.

    Mat_11:16 "But to what shall I liken this generation? It is like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling to their companions,

    Mat_12:41 The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here.

    Mat_12:42 The queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and indeed a greater than Solomon is here.

    Mat_23:36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

    Mat_24:34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.

    Mar_8:12 But He sighed deeply in His spirit, and said, "Why does this generation seek a sign? Assuredly, I say to you, no sign shall be given to this generation."

    Mar_13:30 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.

    Luk_7:31 And the Lord said, "To what then shall I liken the men of this generation, and what are they like?

    Luk_11:30 For as Jonah became a sign to the Ninevites, so also the Son of Man will be to this generation.

    Luk_11:31 The queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with the men of this generation and condemn them, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and indeed a greater than Solomon is here.

    Luk_11:32 The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here.

    Luk_11:50 that the blood of all the prophets which was shed from the foundation of the world may be required of this generation,

    Luk_11:51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah who perished between the altar and the temple. Yes, I say to you, it shall be required of this generation.

    Luk_17:25 But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.

    Luk_21:32 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all things take place.

    Most of the references seem to be regarding those of Jesus time.

    .
     
  19. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

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    But still though, context has to trump, otherwise context is meaningless. If in the Discourse Jesus had meant to apply the part about this generation to the generation they were living in at the time, He would have said that within context only involving that generation, such as what He was applying to the events involving 70 AD, instead of saying it within context involving his 2nd coming.

    Let me show something here.

    Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

    You indicated the latter half of this verse pretty much involves things all the way up to the 2nd coming, assuming I'm recalling correctly.

    Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
    26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

    Then we see the above after that part in verse 24.

    Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

    So when did Jesus say this part? Before that part above in verse 24, or after? Obviously after. What does this logically mean then? It means this part---till all be fulfilled--has to obviously also include that part in verse 24 above and also the parts in verse 25 and 26. Because if not, then Jesus lied if He indicated till all be fulfilled, but that it does not include those parts as well. The text doesn't say till some of it be fulfilled. It says till all be fulfilled. So yes, it for sure matters where and in what context Jesus said the part about this generation in the Discourse. Some get around this altogether by wrongly claiming everything in the Discourse involved that generation at the time. If that were true though, my argument would not be valid in that case. Yet my argument is valid though. So what some of them conclude must not be true then.
     
  20. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    How about the context provided by the three verse before?

    Luk 21:29 Then He spoke to them a parable: "Look at the fig tree, and all the trees.
    Luk 21:30 When they are already budding, you see and know for yourselves that summer is now near.
    Luk 21:31 So you also, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near.
    Luk 21:32 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all things take place.

    .
     
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