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Featured Are Preterists understanding 'this generation' correctly in the Discourse?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by DavidPT, Jul 10, 2019.

  1. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

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    I just thought of something. Technically speaking, I guess this makes me somewhat of a Partial Preterist as well, yet, unlike typical Preterists and Partial Preterists, I'm not applying 'this generation' in the Discourse to that of anything involving what took place in the first century.
     
  2. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    The context in matthew 24 is the 1.) the destruction of the temple 2.) sign of your coming 3.) end of the age. As we have parallel accounts, we know that these 3 things mean the exact same as 1.) when will these things be and 2.) what will be the sign when they are about to take place.

    Matthew 24:3 As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

    Luke 21:7 And they asked him, “Teacher, when will these things be, and what will be the sign when these things are about to take place?”

    Mark 13:3 And as he sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign when all these things are about to be accomplished.

    The "when will these things be" = when will the destruction of the temple occur

    Mark 13:2 And Jesus said to him, “Do you see these great buildings? There will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.”

    Matthew 24:2 But he answered them, “You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.”

    Luke 21:5-6 And while some were speaking of the temple, how it was adorned with noble stones and offerings, he said, “As for these things that you see, the days will come when there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.”


    What are the signs that this temple destruction is going to take place? According to Jesus, wars, and rumors of wars, earthquakes, persecution, famine, pestilence, false prophets, the gospel being proclaimed through the world, and increase in lawlessnes, and the abomination of desolation/Jerusalem surrounded by armies.

    Matthew 24:4-15 And Jesus answered them, “See that no one leads you astray. For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are but the beginning of the birth pains. “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. And then many will fall awaya and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
    “So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),

    These would be signs leading up to the destruction of the temple. So while other future generations may have experienced famines, persecution, false prophets, earthquakes, and wars, no other generation besides the one directly in front of Jesus experienced the horror that was the destruction of the temple in 70ad. Thus the context must be the generation that experienced those signs leading up to that destruction.

    We can further substantiate the olivet's discourse occurring to the 1st century generation, as Paul states they were living at the end of the ages

    1 Corinthians 10:11 Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.


    Matthew 24:3 As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”


    james even states the coming of the lord is at hand and the judge is standing (present tense greek verb) at the door. James is taking that right from the olivet discourse. The only way for james to make that comment was if he was seeing the events of the olivet discourse


    James 5:8-9 You also, be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand. Do not grumble against one another, brothers, so that you may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing at the door

    Matthew 24:33 So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is at hand, at the very door.

    No worries brother.


    generations prior to Jesus and after Jesus have experienced wars, earthquakes, famines, pestilence, persecution, and false prophets. There is no denying that. But Jesus was explicitly talking about signs leading up to the temple's destruction. Thus it can be no other generation then the one standing in front of him, for in 40 years time, the temple was destroyed, and not one stone was left upon another. They are the generation that experienced the signs leading up to the temple destruction.

    Why can we find passages in which just about all authors of the NT state "the end is at hand", "the end of the ages is upon us", "it is the last hour", "the coming of the lord is at hand and the judge is standing at the door"?
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2019
  3. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    The middle of Luke 21:24 is the point at which the Olivet Discourse changes from past to future.

    His Second Coming occurs when the "times of the Gentiles" comes to fullness.


    .
     
  4. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

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    The OP doesn't deal with this portion, yet this portion is clearly relevant to the OP. I don't interpret all of Matthew 24:4-15 to be involving what took place in the first century, especially having to do with the events of 70 AD.

    Let's look at one or two of these verses a little closer. But let's look at them post verse 15.

    Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
    24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
    25 Behold, I have told you before.

    The events concerning 70 AD mainly had to do with judgment on the unbelieving Jews at the time. Yet, in the above context I don't see any of that involving what took place around the time of 70 AD. Look what the text says---and shall shew great signs and wonders. What does that have to do with why Jerusalem was destroyed at the time?

    And who are the elect meaning in that passage? It has to be meaning someone who fits the following criteria. It has to be someone who is not already deceived. Who would not be already deceived? If the elect can mean both the ethnic Jews and the church, it then seems to me that the church is the only thing that can fit the elect here.

    Yet, the judgment involving 70 AD was not judgment on the church, it was judgment on the unbelieving Jews who refused to convert to the church, IOW refused to become Christians. And since context determines meaning, Matthew 24:23-25 couldn't possibly have the events having to do with 70 AD in mind. The context of the above verses have to do with how some of these things might affect the church, and not how it might affect ethnic unbelieving Jews who refused to convert to Christianity in those days.
     
  5. Willie T

    Willie T St. Petersburg Vineyard

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    All Christians are Partial Preterists. If there is any prophesy that you believe has come true, then you are a Partial Preterist. And, I think every one of us believes Jesus was prophesied to come..... AND we believe He did come.

    Do you need to keep it to the 1st century? Jesus said He was going to be killed. He was killed. He said He would rise in three days. He did that, too.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2019
  6. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

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    I agree with you. So why then are some labeled as futurists only, if they see, for example, the AOD in the Discourse, involving the end of this age rather than 2000 years ago? I don't see how that makes one fully futurist, anymore than it would make Partial Preterists full Preterists, simply because they agree about a few things.

    Maybe someone such as Tribsigns might fit the label futurist only, since it appears he sees nothing in the Discourse that might involve those living at the time. Pretty much everyone else though, either concludes all of the Discourse involved only those alive at the time, or that some of the Discourse involved those living at the time, and some of it involves future generations. I tend to fit the latter.
     
  7. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    whether you interpret it to or not, it is a fact that all the signs and events of matthew 24:4-15 leading up to the temple's destruction occurred during the disciple's generation. This can be proved with scripture and extra biblical historical documents. We can substantiate that wars, famines, pestilence, persecution, false prophets, and Jerusalem being surround be armies, did occur between 30ad and 70ad.

    The destruction of Jerusalem, according to Josephus, is owed in part to the people of Israel following after false prophets. This occurred during the Jewish Roman war 66-70ad as recorded by josephus

    The people deluded by false prophets - Josephus, Wars, Book VI, Chapter V

    (285) The people owed their destruction to a false prophet [a] who had, on that very day, declared to the people of the city that God ordered them to go up to the Temple courts to receive there the signs of their deliverance. (286) Many prophets had been induced in these days by the rebel leaders to deceive the people by exhorting them to wait for help from God and thereby to reduce the flow of deserters, as well as buoy up with hope those who were beyond fear or precaution. (287) Man is quickly persuaded in adversity; and when the deceiver actually holds out a prospect of release from the prevailing horrors, the sufferer falls wholly prey to these expectations

    Believers living in and around Jerusalem or believers going to the Jewish feasts leading up to the events of 66-70ad.

    Remember, most jewish converts were zealous for the law.

    acts 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified God. And they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed. They are all zealous for the law.

    The Jews who continued to follow the law would travel to Jerusalem for the 3 required feasts every year. It is during this time (66-70ad), that the Zealots would trap the Jews in city who came to celebrate the feasts. It is during the Passover of 70ad that Rome would siege Jerusalem for around 5 months.

    There was only a short window that they could flee. in 66ad, roman armies under cestus gallus surrounded Jerusalem, but then retreated for some unknown reason according to Josephus. This was the chance for believers to escape. If they didn't do it then, there wasn't much chance afterward, as the zealot factions took control of the city leading up to the roman siege.


    Even as Jesus notes, they were to pray that their flight would not occur on the Sabbath. Thus his warning was to those who continue to observe the law.

    Matthew 24:20 Pray that your flight will not occur in the winter or on the Sabbath.

    Did the vineyard owner COME to destroy the tenants in 70AD or not?
    Matthew 21:38-45 But when the tenants saw the son, they said to themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and have his inheritance.’ And they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. When therefore the owner of the vineyard COMES, what will he do to those tenants?” They said to him, “He will put those wretches to a miserable death and let out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him the fruits in their seasons.” Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: “‘The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone;d this was the Lord’s doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes’? Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits. And the one who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; and when it falls on anyone, it will crush him.”When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he was speaking about them.

    Does the "this generation" refer to 1st century Jerusalem or not?
    Matthew 23:35-36 so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah,f whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2019
  8. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

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    I don't take it be involving what took place in 70 AD to begin with. It seems to be applicable to the following in Revelation 18 though.

    Revelation 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

    I see no valid reason to interpret this to mean that this has only the first century unbelieving Jews in mind, being who was behind this. The text does state this----and of all that were slain upon the earth---which depicts something global and not something only local instead.

    And I still feel I made a good point about Matthew 24:9---and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. Though I neglected to address that further in my last exchange with you.

    If all nations isn't meaning in a global sense, then it shouldn't be meaning in a global sense in any of the following unrelated passages either.

    Some examples.

    Psalms 72:17 His name shall endure for ever: his name shall be continued as long as the sun: and men shall be blessed in him: all nations shall call him blessed.

    Psalms 82:8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

    Psalms 86:9 All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord; and shall glorify thy name.

    Psalms 113:4 The LORD is high above all nations, and his glory above the heavens.

    Matthew 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

    Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
     
  9. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

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    I guess this means you place the AOD as already fulfilled by 70 AD, correct? But even if you do, the part about 'this generation', it comes after the part about the AOD in all 3 accounts, though Luke 21 appears to make no mention of an AOD. In Luke 21 Jesus said in regards to 'this generation, after the part about Jerusalem being surrounded. Either way then, Jesus was applying it's meaning to a time post any of those events, thus why I conclude in the OP, some are misunderstanding what Jesus was meaning by 'this generation' in the Discourse.
     
  10. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

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    When I read Matthew 23, I see Jesus mainly addressing their spiritual condition at the time. Who can even prove that the ones Jesus was talking to at the time, that they were all even still alive 40 years later in order for the events of 70 AD to be fulfilled upon them?

    Matthew 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

    What about this part? Did Jesus really mean the following instead? Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of 70 AD?
     
  11. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

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    It appears so, yet I don't know what this has to do with what Jesus was meaning in regards to this generation in the Discourse though? It's not like some us of are trying to deny that the events of 70 AD ever took place some 40 years post Jesus giving His Discourse. What's in question, what was Jesus applying 'this generation' to in the Discourse.
     
  12. Willie T

    Willie T St. Petersburg Vineyard

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    Common sense should inform all of us that some things have come to pass, and some have not. I think where many of us get hung-up is on what things may or may not have happened yet. And that seems to come down to nothing more than possibly personal (or, instead, "herd-following") interpretation.
     
  13. Aquila0121

    Aquila0121 Brother In Christ

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    I think it is pretty straight forward...

    Matthew 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
    33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
    34 Verily I say unto YOU (those to whom He was speaking), THIS generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
    35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
    36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

    It should be noted that while no one knew the day and hour Christ would return in judgment against Jerusalem, they understood that it was to be within their generation. In other texts Jesus tells them of these things for the sole purpose that they will not be caught "unawares":

    Luke 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.​

    Historically speaking, when Christians saw the armies of Rome surrounding Jerusalem, they fled into the mountains and took refuge in Pella. As a result, not a single Christian believing Christ's testimony perished in the judgment upon Jerusalem.

     
  14. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

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    And speaking of coming to pass, and that everything in the Discourse has obviously not all come to pass as of yet, this further proves Jesus wasn't applying 'this generation' to the generation He was speaking to at the time. Because if He was, He outright lied then since He indicated that everything He had mentioned up to this point, has to be fulfilled first, before this generation can pass. And since you mentioned common sense, there you go then, common sense says I have to be correct here.
     
  15. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    This is confusing. You stated in post #44 "The events concerning 70 AD mainly had to do with judgment on the unbelieving Jews at the time". But then you disagree that Jesus' woes to the scribes and Pharisees, and prophesies of judgment on Jerusalem didn't take place in 70ad?

    The audience is clearly 1st century Jerusalem:


    Matthew 23:13 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men’s faces

    Matthew 23:15 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You traverse land and sea to win a single convert

    Matthew 23:16 Woe to you, blind guides! You say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath

    Matthew 23:23 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You pay tithes of mint, dill, and cumin,

    Matthew 23:25 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence

    Matthew 23:34-36 Because of this, I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify, and others you will flog in your synagogues and persecute in town after town. And so upon you will come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I tell you, all these things will come upon this generation.

    This is very much intimately connected to the 2 past chapters (matthew 21 and 22), which specifically mention the destruction of Jerusalem for the killing of the servants and son.

    Matthew 21:43-45 Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.k He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed.” When the chief priests and Pharisees heard Jesus’ parables, they knew He was speaking about them.

    Matthew 22:6-7 The rest seized his servants, mistreated them, and killed them. The king was enraged, and he sent his troops to destroy those murderers and burn their city.


    ***Was Jerusalem and the temple destroyed in 70ad, yes or no?

    Absolutely it is applicable. It fits well because the woman, who is Babylon the great, is the great city, which is Jerusalem. We should always use scripture to interpret scripture.

    Revelation 17:4-5 And the woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls. She held in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the impurities of her sexual immorality. On her forehead a mysterious name was written: Babylon the Great,
    the mother of prostitutes and of the abominations of the earth.

    Revelation 17:18 And the woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.”

    Revelation 11:8 bodies will lie in the street of the great city—figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where their Lord was also crucified.


    Revelation 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all who have been slain on earth.”

    Matthew 23:35-36 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah,f whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

    All meaning literally ALL becomes a tricky argument. I typically refrain from using the "ALL" argument, as all doesn't always mean literally all.

    Here are at least 2 examples:

    Did Cyrus literally have control over ALL kingdoms of the earth
    2 chronicles 36:23 says Cyrus king of Persia, ‘The Lord, the God of heaven, has given me all the kingdoms of the earth, and he has charged me to build him a house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Whoever is among you of all his people, may the Lord his God be with him. Let him go up.’”

    Did God bring the fear of David upon literally all nations over the whole earth?
    1 chronicles 14:17 And the fame of David went out into all lands, and the Lord brought the fear of him upon all nations.

    As the roman empire was the world at that time, I would argue the multiple nations that made up the roman empire are what is in view.

    Greek word for earth: oikoumené ((properly: the land that is being inhabited, the land in a state of habitation), the inhabited world, that is, the Roman world, for all outside it was regarded as of no account.


     
  16. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

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    I see zero reason to apply that context to what you do. That context involves His 2nd coming. I'm not claiming what you submitted, that it never occurred. My argument is that what you submitted, that does not involve that particular context.
     
  17. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
    (See John 10:22 to "understand" as the Jews of Jesus time would have understood, because they celebrated Hanukkah every year.)
    Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

    Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
    Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.


    Joh 10:22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.

    How can you read Matthew 24:16, and Luke 21:21, which contain the exact same phrase, and then claim the two prior verses are not parallel?

    .
     
  18. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Of 1st century Jerusalem, correct?

    So you are arguing that because we don't death certificates, we have no way of knowing if they lived until 70ad, thus Jesus wasn't really talking to them?

    depends on what being sentenced to gehenna means, right? I take it to mean the 2nd death. I don't believe the Jewish roman war was the 2nd death, but I do associate the tribulation of Jerusalem with rising of the dead to be sentenced to eternal life or eternal contempt.

    The sentence of the 2nd death is given to the unrighteous at the judging of the dead

    Revelation 20:15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

    The resurrection of the dead, which includes the unrighteous going to everlasting contempt, occurs near and/or around the destruction of Jerusalem. The angel even states it is finished at the shattering of the power of the holy people.

    Daniel 12:1-7 At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above;a and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever. But you, Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.” Then I, Daniel, looked, and behold, two others stood, one on this bank of the stream and one on that bank of the stream. And someone said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream,b “How long shall it be till the end of these wonders?” And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream; he raised his right hand and his left hand toward heaven and swore by him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time, and that when the shattering of the power of the holy people comes to an end all these things would be finished.

     
  19. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Wait, you agree that God, the owner of the vineyard, "came" in 70ad to destroy the wicked tenants?

    But you don't appear to believe the olivet discourse is about that event that took place in 70ad.

    I disagree, I believe the events leading up to 70ad, vindicate that Jesus' words were true. Jesus said the temple was going to fall and the temple did fall.


    Deuteronomy 18:22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him.

    right, and it can be substantiated via scripture, and extra biblical historical documents that all the signs (wars, famines, earthquakes, persecution, false prophets,etc...) of matthew 24:4-15 leading up to the temple destruction were experienced by the disciples's generation.

    Thus this generation would that of the disciples.
     
  20. Willie T

    Willie T St. Petersburg Vineyard

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    Uh, people.....……………….. IT WAS A PARABLE. Quit trying to make it a part of our history, either past or future.
     
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