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Featured Are Preterists understanding 'this generation' correctly in the Discourse?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by DavidPT, Jul 10, 2019.

  1. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

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    Not all Preterists are full Preterists. Some are Partial Preterists. So meaning any Preterist, whether full or partial, who applies 'this generation shall not pass', to that of events taking place in the first century, mainly involving 70 AD.



    Luke 21:29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
    30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
    31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
    32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
    33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
    34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
    35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
    36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

    Let's look at this from Luke's perspective first.


    Let's start with verse 35. That verse indicates this---For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

    What shall come as a snare? If we look back in verse 34 we are told this---and so that day come upon you unawares.

    What day can come upon one unawares? For more clarity, it will be helpful to now consult either the Matthew 24 or Mark 13 account. The former should be sufficient.

    Matthew 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
    33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
    34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
    35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
    36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

    Obviously verse 36---But of that day and hour---this is referring to the day in question in Luke 21:34 that can come upon one unawares. Which then equals according to Luke 21:35, this----For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

    As to this day that can come upon one unawares, Matthew 24:36 says this about it---But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

    If we look at verse 35 in Matthew 24, and verse 33 in Luke 21, we are told this---Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.


    What is that connected with? How can it not be connected with the day that can come upon one unawares? And how can it not be connected with this generation passing, once everything has been fulfilled?

    First though, let's consider Matthew 24:35, and Luke 21:33, in light of the following in 2 Peter 3.

    2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
    11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
    12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

    How can what is recorded in Matthew 24:35 and Luke 21:33, plus what is recorded in 2 Peter 3:10, not be referring to the same events?

    Now we are at the verse which causes so much misunderstanding for Preterists in particular, though I fully realize, that from their perspective, they are not misunderstanding anything in the slightest.


    Matthew 24:34 says this---This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

    Obviously this implies this generation can pass, and will pass, but not until all these things be fulfilled first. Which has to include the fulfilling of every single thing Jesus mentioned in the Discourse, up to this point at least.

    If we look at Matthew 24:32 next, we are told this---So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

    What is even at the doors? This is where Luke's account in chapter 21 can help shed more light on this.


    Luke 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

    Obviously then, according to Luke 21:31, what is even at the doors(Matthew 24:32), is the kingdom of God.

    I can't speak for anyone else, but based on what I submitted here, nothing in the verses surrounding 'this generation shall not pass', have anything to do with any events taking place in the first century. It would be silly of Jesus to be applying the events of the first century, such as 70 AD, to that of 'this generation shall not pass', while at the same time be referring to events having to do with the end of this age literally coming to an end at some point. That would clearly make Matthew 24:34 entirely out of context with the verses surrounding that verse.

    To answer the title of the thread then. Of course they are not understanding it correctly. They of course obviously think otherwise.
     
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  2. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    All of the "you" in the olivet discourses are 2nd person plural. Meaning they are directed at the audience.

    Paul believed he was living at the end of the ages.
    1 Corinthians 10:11 Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come

    Peter believed the end of all things was at hand
    1 Peter 4:7 The end of all things is at hand; therefore be self-controlled and sober-minded for the sake of your prayers

    John believed it was the last hour
    1 John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour

    James believed the coming of the Lord was at hand.

    James 5:8-9 You also, be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.

    James also believed the judge was standing at the door. "standing" is in the present tense. The only way James could have stated that is if he was seeing the events of the olivet discourse.

    James 5:9 Do not grumble against one another, brothers, so that you may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing at the door

    Matthew 24:33-34 So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very door. Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place


    Considering all the non debatable events (wars, famines, persecution, false prophets, temple destruction) occurred during the generation Jesus was talking to, it appears that the reason the apostles believed the end, and even His coming was at hand, was because Jesus told them.

    matthew 24:34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place
     
  3. TribulationSigns

    TribulationSigns Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Incorrect. That is what many Preterists (and Premillennialists) got it wrong.

    Again, the very nature of most prophecy is the "foretelling" of something which hasn't occurred yet. If that is your reason for rejecting the truth of God's prophecy of a future Holy Temple and Holy place, it's as weak an argument as I have ever heard. Clearly, the whole context of Matthew is of Christ prophesying of future events.

    As for His audience, His audience is the Church. When He spoke to the disciples His audience was the Church. Likewise, when God (through Paul) spoke to the Corinthians, His audience was the Church. When He spoke to the Romans, His audience was the Church. When Christ told the disciples that in this world, they would have tribulation (John 16:33), His audience was the Church.

    Wrong generation.
     
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  4. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

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    Even though you and I often disagree about things here and there, there are times when I'm in full agreement with you. This being one of those times. Of course His audience was the church. Couldn't agree more. On a side note, you probably meant to say Pretribbers rather than Premils. Pretribbers are also Premils, yet not all Premils are also Pretribbers.

    I hope you have time and are able to contribute further in this thread. I have a feeling we might find out we are on the same page about many of these things. So maybe not everything though. But who ever agrees with everything someone else is concluding to begin with? It's very rare if it happens.
     
  5. JosephZ

    JosephZ Well-Known Member

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    When Jesus was speaking He was foretelling of something that had not yet occured for those who were hearing His words. All of the events Jesus prophesied were still in their future.
     
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  6. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    You are wrong.

    Every single "you" directed at the disciples in the olivet discourse is a 2nd person plural pronoun.

    2nd person pronouns definition: "second person is the person or people spoken to, literally"

    Please show which "you" directed at the disciples in the olivet discourse is not a 2nd person pronoun to substantiate your argument.



    I could just easily respond "right generation" with no explanation. You have not surmounted my argument.

    why did the apostles believe Jesus' coming was at hand if Jesus didn't mean their generation?

    James believed the coming of the Lord was at hand.

    James 5:8-9 You also, be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.

    James also believed the judge was standing at the door. "standing" is in the present tense. The only way James could have stated that is if he was seeing the events of the olivet discourse.

    James 5:9 Do not grumble against one another, brothers, so that you may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing at the door

    Matthew 24:33-34 So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very door. Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place
     
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  7. TribulationSigns

    TribulationSigns Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Well, I have noticed that some people from Preterism and Premillennialism circles liked or used my testimony to disprove each other.

    Good.

    The premillennialism is generally Dispensationalists of several camps: Pre-trib, mid-trib, pre-wrath, post-trib. They all share a common belief that the prophecies have to do with national Israel regardless of their timing on rapture, antichrist, war, physical events, etc. Of course, I don't support their doctrines.
     
  8. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Right, the temple was destroyed 40 years after Jesus death. which was future to the olivet discourse

    The temple was destroyed 40 years into the future of when Christ gave this olivet discourse. where did I say this was not a prophesy of the future for the disciples?

    Is the church still waiting for timothy, or was Timothy to be sent to the philippians, of which the "you" (2nd personal pronoun) refers to?

    philippians 2:19 hope in the Lord Jesus to send Timothy to you soon, so that I too may be cheered by news of you
     
  9. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

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    That's your first mistake then. You are approaching these things from the wrong angle. Unbelieving Jews wouldn't be heeding any of Jesus' warnings, nor even care what He is going on about. Believing Jews would though. But what is a believing Jew? Is not that the church? I'm not claiming that none of the things in the Discourse did not apply to some of them at time. But Jesus is using progressive prophecy. He's not remaining fixated on only the days they were living in at the time, He expands to include other generations, ultimately ending with His return.

    He is describing what the church has to go through post His leaving, then up to His returning, then following His returning. After all, He eventually physically leaves the planet altogether, but will return. These prophecies fit there, meaning the entire church age, and not just a mere 40 years or so into the future. Why interpret those things in a vacuum like that when Jesus had the entire church age in mind, which will at least involve 2000 years or so?
     
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  10. TribulationSigns

    TribulationSigns Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Typical Preterism interpretation which is a mistake.



    Wow, you must have a short memory. Didn't you read my previous post with examples?

    We have covered the "generation" before and you know full well where I come from. If you need some refreshing, search for my posts here.


    Jas 5:7-12
    (7) Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
    (8) Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.
    (9) Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.
    (10) Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience.
    (11) Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.
    (12) But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.

    The husbandman waited a LONG Time for something - - a precious fruit of the earth. Let me ask you, what exactly is the "precious fruit of the earth? What was the early and latter rain? Did those take place in 70AD? Show me with Scripture support that applies to the precious fruit, early and latter rain.
     
  11. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    please see definition of 2nd personal prounouns: "second person is the person or people spoken to, literally"

    I never stated Jesus was addressing unbelieving Jews. Jesus was addressing his disciples, who would then share this information with the church.

    please provide scripture from the olivet discourse that show Jesus addressing multiple generations.


    This doesn't address the greek grammar of the "you" being 2nd personal pronouns, nor why the disciples believed Jesus was coming in their lifetime.
     
  12. TribulationSigns

    TribulationSigns Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Chuckle. You got the wrong temple. The temple that Christ spoke already fell at the Cross. Not a physical buildings.

    We already discussed this before.


    You are funny. Philippians was not only for people that the message was for. It is for all messengers of the Lord's Church. The book of Philippians applies to us today.
     
  13. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    Luke 21:29-36 Jesus told them a parable: Look at the fig tree, as soon as it buds you can tell that summer is near. In the same way when you see all this happening, you will know that the Kingdom of God is near. Truly, I tell you the present generation will live to see it all. My words will never pass away.
    Be on your guard, do not let your minds be dulled by dissipation or worldly cares so that the great Day catches you unawares, for that Day will come upon everyone, the whole world over. Be on the alert, praying at all times for strength to pass safely through all that is coming and to stand in the presence of the Son of Man. Ref: REB


    The present generation - or the generation present: the same thing. When they see Judah become a nation again, we will know the end times are upon us.

    The fig tree – Israel is the vine, Judah is the fig tree: Isaiah 5:7, Hosea 9:10. The parable of the fig tree applies to the House of Judah, Matthew 21:43. Therefore when Judah starts to bud, that is: becomes a nation again, as they formed the State of Israel in May 1948, then within that generation, [a lifetime of 70-80 years] the end times events will commence. Ezekiel 12:25

    The great Day – The Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, the multi prophesied judgement/punishment of the nations, an event that will come unexpectedly, sudden and shocking all those who have failed to understand the Lord's plans and purposes. Isaiah 29:5-12, Isaiah 66:15-16, Revelation 6:12-17

    That Day will come upon everyone There is no ‘rapture’ at this time, all will go through this judgement. Isaiah 24:1, Psalms 50:1-3, Zephaniah 3:8

    Strength to pass safely through – This is often mistranslated as ‘escape all these things’, which is a serious error and is incorrect, as the previous sentence has just stated ‘that Day will come upon everyone’. What the Lord promises, is not a removal from earth – an escape as such, but protection. Psalms 91, Isaiah 43:1-2

    The presence of the Son of Man – Jesus called Himself the ‘Son of Man’, when He was present on earth in a human body. This was necessary so as He could become our ‘kinsman Redeemer’. After the great Day of the Lord, when every faithful Christian has gathered in the holy Land, they will stand in His presence when the 144,000 are selected; Revelation 14:1. Then, later at His glorious Return, His Name will be ‘The Word of God’. Revelation 19:13
     
  14. Hank77

    Hank77 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Paul's going to send Timothy to 'you' soon.
     
  15. Hank77

    Hank77 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If Israel is the fig tree budding in 1948, what nations are all the other trees budding?

    Luk 21:29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
    Luk 21:30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
     
  16. TribulationSigns

    TribulationSigns Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Paul did when I read the book of Philippians. And oh Paul said hi.
     
  17. Hank77

    Hank77 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I don't mean the funny rating to be sarcastic, I really think that was funny.
     
  18. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

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    When you have a good point you have a good point. So good point then.

    Personally I don't think there is anything cryptic about the fig tree here. The following verse appears to explain what Jesus was meaning when he said this---So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand(Luke 21:31).


    IOW----

    Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth---is being compared with this---- when ye see these things come to pass

    ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand---is being compared with this---know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
     
  19. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

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    Matthew 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

    What about the 'ye' in this part?---and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

    That can't also apply to disciples in future generations, but can only apply to disciples in the generation Jesus was speaking to at the time? And what about the part about all nations? Did this literally involve all nations around the entire globe at the time, hating these particular disciples Jesus was talking to, for his name's sake? Maybe it's just me, but when I read things like 'all nations', I tend to not take that being localized so much, but global instead.



    I know you didn't state that, nor was I inferring you did. A lot of times I'm just reasoning things out loud, so to speak. Where I then am trying to make a point, such as, well it can't fit unbelieving Jews that's for certain, so maybe it fits the church then.


    Edited to add: I just now realized something. You also asked this--please provide scripture from the olivet discourse that show Jesus addressing multiple generations.

    Hmmm...maybe I just did, meaning via what I submitted above from Matthew 24:9??
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2019
  20. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    Modern civilization; the prosperity resulting from technological advances and world trade.

    Unfortunately, this has resulted in a population explosion, which cannot be sustained. Soon to happen is the great second reset of mankinds civilization, the Sixth Seal Day of the Lord's fiery wrath.
     
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