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Featured Are Preterists understanding 'this generation' correctly in the Discourse?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by DavidPT, Jul 10, 2019 at 12:21 PM.

  1. TribulationSigns

    TribulationSigns Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Ahh, you skipped the next verse. Why is that? That is the problem that most people didn't realize.

    Luk 21:29-31
    (29) And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
    (30) When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
    (31) So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

    Jesus was speaking to his audience (as well as the church). He was using fig tree and all the trees that were standing around Him and his hearers as an example. He told us that when the trees become tender and set forth leaves, we will mentally know that summer is near just we do today. Then Jesus explained, "LIKEWISE, when we start to see things He mentioned earlier in his discourse start to take place, we will know that His Second Coming is near." That is all.

    What things? Everything that Jesus explained in his discourse. The rise of false prophets and Christs, the spiritual war of words between Kingdom of God and Kingdom of Satan for the control of God's congregation, spiritual famines, spiritual disease, and earthquake (shaking of God's congregation when she is under judgment), you will be hated for your testimony, when we see abomination of desolation standing in the holy place (church on this side of the cross), and judgment upon mother (church) with a child (professed Christians) where they will be lead away spiritual captivity, and finally the signs in the sun, moon, and stars to declare God's judgment upon His congregation is taking place and that his second coming is near.

    So Jesus said, when we see all these things, we will mentally know that Christ's coming is near. No need for date setting. No need to looking for one man Antichrist. No need to expect physical war in the Middle East. etc. etc. We know by seeing and discerning the signs, not Jerusalem Post.
     
  2. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

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    Let me ask you something. when you make statements like the following--- and earthquake (shaking of God's congregation when she is under judgment)---how are you determining that that is what that is supposed to mean? Unless you have support from other Scriptures, it sounds like you are just making things mean whatever you want them to mean, rather than what they might actually mean. When earthquakes are mentioned in the Bible, I see no reason to not take them in the literal sense.
     
  3. Hank77

    Hank77 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I didn't skip anything. Someone posted that Israel was the fig tree that budded in 1948. I asked what nations were the other trees in this verse if Israel was the fig. Verse 31 didn't apply to what I was asking so I didn't quote it.
    KISS is my goal.

    I don't agree that this is talking about the Second Coming. The Kingdom of God is already here.

    Mat_12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

    Mar_9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

    Luk_17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
    Luk_17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
     
  4. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

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    Can you explain the following, which appears to me to be a contradiction if you are correct?

    Mark 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.


    Luke 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

    It can't be both at hand and nigh at hand at the same time, can it? Chronologically then, which comes first? Mark 1:15 or Luke 21:31?
     
  5. TribulationSigns

    TribulationSigns Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Read the Scripture again...

    Isa 13:13-19
    (13) Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.
    (14) And it shall be as the chased roe, and as a sheep that no man taketh up: they shall every man turn to his own people, and flee every one into his own land.
    (15) Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword.
    (16) Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.
    (17) Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.
    (18) Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children.
    (19) And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.

    Did Babylon of Old Testament experienced a physical earthquake and shaking in heavens when she fell? No?

    See...Babylon, Sodom, and Gomorrah, all are a type of the "spiritual" condition of God's people when He brings judgment upon them. The children of the city will not be spared, everyone not having the seal are under the Lord's wrath. Likewise with the New Testament Congregation prior to Second Coming:

    Rev 6:12-14
    (12) And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
    (13) And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
    (14) And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

    Rev 11:13-14
    (13) And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
    (14) The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

    These verses are talking about the judgment of the New Testament Congregation. The earthquake signifies God's judgment. Do you honestly believe that with your literal interpretation that God is talking about poor fig tree being destroyed by the wind with hurricane force? Or the stars, many light years away, are going to travel toward Earth and crush it? Or will God trigger a physical earthquake somewhere in Israel that will only 7,000 headcounts of Jews?

    Come on, seriously!

    No, they are spiritual pictures of the fall of New Testament Congregation where she is now a type of Fig Tree on this SIDE of the Cross. Because of her unfaithfulness (just like Israel of Old), God will shake the foundation of his congregation as her kingdom representative is being removed (just like Israel of Old).

    The stars are the messengers of the congregation. Pastors, leaders, teachers, laymen, etc. Many fall because of their unfaithfulness with God's Word. The mighty wind comes from the four winds, Revelation 7:1, that was held back until now. It is the winds of false doctrines that deceive many as a judgment of God. Remember 2nd Thess 2 where He will have people to believe a lie from false prophets and christs? This is the wind! This how their places in the congregation as figs are blown away. Heaven departed as a scroll signifies that the days of salvation is over because the testimony of the bridegroom and bride is no longer heard therein. The large congregations and small congregations as mountain and island were removed as a representative for God.

    In Revelation 11, the number 10 signifies fullness so all congregation of God fell (but the true Elect, few left on earth, who is "alive and remain" will witness this judgment). The number seven signfiies totality and thousand being fullness of whatever is in view, so 7,000 means the total destruction of ALL men, women, and children without seal of God by having them to believe the lies of the false prophets and christs in their church.

    See... the judgment of God upon HIS HOUSE must take place FIRST before Christ returns and judge the world. This is the second woe. That is why this second woe must take place before the third woe come quickly which is a woe upon the unsaved world with the Second Coming.

    The reason why you may not buy this is that you were expecting a physical earthquake, being crushed by Alpha Centauri and the bunches of stars, or witness a single fig tree being uprooted by hurricane thanks to global warming? Humm?

    Chuckle.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2019 at 11:48 PM
  6. TribulationSigns

    TribulationSigns Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yes. Context is the key. Kiss that.

    I know. This is the blindness of preterism doctrines.

    And it did. Jesus did establish his kingdom through the Church. At the Cross. Not your version of Second Coming in 70AD.

    Yes, at Pentecost.

    And it has. Long before 70AD!

    Let me tell you something... after Christs' resurrection when Christ sent the seventy out as two witnesses, He said: "Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves." Yet what happened? The wolves had no power to harm them. In the spiritual vernacular, the Lion could not prevail against the lambs, the serpents had children place their hands on their dens and yet were not harmed. It's all a spiritual picture illustrating the power of the gospel that the gates of hell could not prevail over the saints when they come against it. Like the snake charmers, they ruled over the snake instead of the snake them. That's the power of the gospel that many would be healed, and the blind made to see. That's what the seventy came back saying. That's the mystery of Satan being bound so that his house could be spoiled. And the seventy returned with this on their lips.

    Luke 10:17-19
    • "And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
    • And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
    • Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you."
    There you have the same Illustration that Christ gives Peter in Matthew 18. That as they go forth as two witnesses against the Kingdom of Satan, that old serpent cannot hurt them, because the power of Christ in binding him assures that the Church will be built. In other words, Christ shall build His church, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it. These seventy, two by two, didn't sit home defensively waiting until 70AD. No, they WENT out into the devil's world, out into Satan's Kingdom to spoil his house, and that is God's picture of how the kingdom of God would be advanced and the gates of hell not prevail. And this was not even Second Coming in 70AD!
     
  7. Guojing

    Guojing Member

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    Matthew 24:33-34 is interesting and will test your interpretation of the mystery of the dispensation of grace, which was revealed to the Apostle Paul by God. Ephesians 3:9

    Did Jesus also know about that, during his earthly ministry? Ephesians 3:9 seems to hint that it was hidden in God, and Jesus was mentioned separately.
     
  8. Hank77

    Hank77 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Both of them mean the same thing. Two different authors just worded them a little differently.

    Luk 21:31 SoG2532 likewiseG3779 ye,G5210 whenG3752 ye seeG1492 these thingsG5023 come to pass,G1096 knowG1097 ye thatG3754 theG3588 kingdomG932 of GodG2316 isG2076 nigh at hand.G1451

    Mar 1:15 AndG2532 saying,G3004 TheG3588 timeG2540 is fulfilled,G4137 andG2532 theG3588 kingdomG932 of GodG2316 is at hand:G1448

    G1448
    ἐγγίζω
    eggizō
    From G1451; to make near, that is, (reflexively) approach: - approach, be at hand, come (draw) near, be (come, draw) nigh.
    G1451
    ἐγγύς
    eggus
    From a primary verb ἄγχω agchō (to squeeze or throttle; akin to the base of G43); near (literally or figuratively, of place or time): - from, at hand, near, nigh (at hand, unto), ready.
     
  9. Hank77

    Hank77 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I'm not a peterist. What I believe is very close to what most of the Bible scholars did before Darby. Such as Gill, Clarke, Henry, Barnes, Calvin, Spurgeon, etc.
     
  10. Lost4words

    Lost4words Like a puppy, i need guidance. Supporter

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    End Times experts are like grains of sand on a beach. And those that truly believe that only they know scripture and scoff at others.

    Like i have said before. The Bible is the most misunderstood and misinterpreted book in the world.
     
  11. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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  12. Willie T

    Willie T St. Petersburg Vineyard

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    "We", in OUR generation are so egocentric that we dismiss the 70 AD generation, every other of the 50 or so, generations in between, and any future time still to come, to dogmatically declare it is THIS specific and precise time in history (the year 2019) Jesus was speaking of.

    We also forget that we said this same thing in the 1900's, and we refuse to believe we (or our children or grandchildren) will be saying this same thing when the next century rolls over.
     
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  13. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Christ was a "Partial Preterist" in the Olivet Discourse, as revealed by Luke's Gospel.

    Compare Luke's Gospel to that of Matthew if you want to understand the timing.


    Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple (These subtitles are found in e-Sword.)

    Luk 21:5  Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said, 
    Luk 21:6  "These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down." 

    (Mat 24:2  And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down." )



    Luk 21:7  So they asked Him, saying, "Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?" 

    (Mat 24:3  Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?")

    ( Mar 13:3  Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately, 
    Mar 13:4  "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?") 



    Luk 21:8  And He said: "Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time has drawn near.' Therefore do not go after them. 

    (Mat 24:5  For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. )



    Luk 21:9  But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately."

    (Mat 24:6  And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.) 


    Jesus Foretells Wars and Persecution


    Luk 21:10  Then He said to them, "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 

    (Mat 24:7  For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. )



    Luk 21:11  And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven. 

    (Mat 24:7  For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. )



    Luk 21:12  But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake. 

    (Mat 24:9  "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.) (Read Acts 22:19-20, where Paul reveals that he fulfilled this text.)



    Luk 21:13  But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony. 
    Luk 21:14  Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer; 
    Luk 21:15  for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist. 
    Luk 21:16  You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. 
    Luk 21:17  And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. 

    (Mat 24:10  And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. )



    Luk 21:18  But not a hair of your head shall be lost. 
    Luk 21:19  By your patience possess your souls. 

    (Mat 24:13  But he who endures to the end shall be saved.) 


    Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem


    Luk 21:20  "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. (See also Luke 19:41-44)

    (Mat 24:15  "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), 



    Luk 21:21  Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 

    (Mat 24:16  "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.) 



    Luk 21:22  For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 
    Luk 21:23  But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 

    (Mat 24:19  But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! ) (See Luke 23:27-31 where Jesus warned the women weeping for Him.)



    Luk 21:24  And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. 
    (Almost all Bible scholars agree that the first part of the verse above is about 70 AD. At the end of the verse we find a period of time known as “the times of the Gentiles”. In the verses that follow we find the future Second Coming of Christ.)


    The Coming of the Son of Man


    Luk 21:25  "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 

    (Mat 24:29  "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.) 



    Luk 21:26  men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shake 
    Luk 21:27  Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 

    (Mat 24:30  Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.) 



    Luk 21:28  Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near." 

    (Mat 24:33  So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!)

    :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::



    From "Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus, Book 12, chapter 7

    "6. When therefore the generals of Antiochus's armies had been beaten so often, Judas assembled the people together, and told them, that after these many victories which God had given them, they ought to go up to Jerusalem, and purify the temple, and offer the appointed sacrifices. But as soon as he, with the whole multitude, was come to Jerusalem, and found the temple deserted, and its gates burnt down, and plants growing in the temple of their own accord, on account of its desertion, he and those that were with him began to lament, and were quite confounded at the sight of the temple; so he chose out some of his soldiers, and gave them order to fight against those guards that were in the citadel, until he should have purified the temple. When therefore he had carefully purged it, and had brought in new vessels, the candlestick, the table [of shew-bread], and the altar [of incense], which were made of gold, he hung up the veils at the gates, and added doors to them. He also took down the altar [of burnt-offering], and built a new one of stones that he gathered together, and not of such as were hewn with iron tools. So on the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu, which the Macedonians call Apeliens, they lighted the lamps that were on the candlestick, and offered incense upon the altar [of incense], and laid the loaves upon the table [of shew-bread], and offered burnt-offerings upon the new altar [of burnt-offering]. Now it so fell out, that these things were done on the very same day on which their Divine worship had fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use, after three years' time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apeliens, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apeliens, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time].

    7. Now Judas celebrated the festival of the restoration of the sacrifices of the temple for eight days, and omitted no sort of pleasures thereon; but he feasted them upon very rich and splendid sacrifices; and he honored God, and delighted them by hymns and psalms. Nay, they were so very glad at the revival of their customs, when, after a long time of intermission, they unexpectedly had regained the freedom of their worship, that they made it a law for their posterity, that they should keep a festival, on account of the restoration of their temple worship, for eight days. And from that time to this we celebrate this festival, and call it Lights. I suppose the reason was, because this liberty beyond our hopes appeared to us; and that thence was the name given to that festival. Judas also rebuilt the walls round about the city, and reared towers of great height against the incursions of enemies, and set guards therein. He also fortified the city Bethsura, that it might serve as a citadel against any distresses that might come from our enemies. "


    Josephus confirms above the understanding of the Jews of his time, who knew that Daniel had predicted the events of 167 BC, by Antiochus Epiphanes.
    Josephus confirms it as a historical fact.

    John 10:22 is a reference to the celebration of Hanukkah each year by the Jews of Jesus time.


    The Book of Matthew was addressed mainly to a Jewish audience. Jesus was telling the Jews of His time that something similar to 167 BC would happen during 70 AD. Not only did Antiochus desecrate the temple, but he also attacked the city killing thousands of Jews and stopped the temple sacrifices. The temple sacrifices would also stop in 70 AD, due to the destruction of the temple. Based on John 10:22, the Jews were well aware of this historical fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy. Luke’s Gospel was written to more of a Gentile audience, so he spelled it out for them.

    Matthew 24:15-16 and Luke 21:20-21 are clearly parallel accounts, because we have the exact same warning to flee from Judea to the mountains in the second verse of each Gospel.

    :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2019 at 9:22 AM
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  14. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The Bible was written FOR us amongst many, but it was not written TO us.
     
  15. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    literal sense like "you" means those Jesus addressed and "this generation", meaning that generation Jesus was speaking to?
     
  16. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

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    Where I come from, context determines what something means. As to the latter, the context Jesus said that in doesn't support that He was meaning the generation He was speaking to at the time. I clearly showed that in the OP. But I can't force any of you to see what you don't want to see.
     
  17. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

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    I think I already indicated that the Discourse involves a time post the ascension up to His return, IOW it involves at least 2000 years. Obviously this would have to include what happened in 70 AD. But Jesus didn't stop at 70 AD though. So I can't tell from your post whether you are agreeing or disagreeing with me?
     
  18. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    You are free to disagree with grammar of the greek. But it would help your position if you could show how the "you" are not 2nd person pronouns.

    No need to be rude TribulationSigns, I believe you have been warned on that before. As to your previous post, I reread and found that you, in fact, posted no examples of what I requested.

    I searched your posts on this forum, where did you mention about your position on "this generation" prior post #10?

    So James wasn't writing to a 1st century audience? I disagree.

    Additionally, farmers had to wait, but they didn't have to wait 2,000 + years to harvest.

    James 5:7 Be patient, therefore, brothers,a until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, being patient about it, until it receives the early and the late rains.

    James doesn't tell his 1st century audience that the coming of the Lord is distant, but AT HAND. He compares it to a farmer waiting for their crop. Did a farmer typically die before harvesting their crop?

    James 5:8 You also, be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand

    James states the judge "is standing" at the door. "is standing" is a PRESENT TENSE greek verb. The only way James could say the judge IS STANDING at the door is if he was experiencing the events of the olivet discourse. For Jesus states when they were to see all these things they would know he is standing at the door.

    James 5:9 Do not grumble against one another, brothers, so that you may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing at the door.

    Matthew 24:33 also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very door.
     
  19. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Are you the only one teaching this? or are there any other reputable sources that teach the temple, as mentioned in the olivet discourse, was in fact not the one they were next to, but about the cross?

    Do you believe it is merely coincidence that Jesus predicted the fall of the temple and the romans destroyed it 40 years later?


    I'm not denying we can apply the applications found in philippians of loving God, remaining humble, being a light, advancing the gospel to the church throughout the ages. That doesn't change the fact that every single 2nd person "you" is directed to those in Philippi.


    So based on your current explanation, you appear to still be waiting for Timothy.

    philippians 2:19 hope in the Lord Jesus to send Timothy to you soon, so that I too may be cheered by news of you
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2019 at 10:53 AM
  20. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

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    Let me remind us what the focus of the OP is. What is not in question is whether or not any of the events in the Discourse involved any of those living at the time. Of course some of it involved them. What is in question though, what did Jesus mean by 'this generation' in the Discourse.
     
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