Are our churches failing at properly teaching Christology?

[GodsGrace101]

Short answer - and I say this as a member of the clergy whose responsibility it is to get this right - yes, our churches are failing to properly teach Christology.

I don't think I got any robust teaching on Christology prior to theological college.

My guess as to why this is actually relates to @dzheremi's point. Time. Most of my congregation are very time-poor and not willing to put much time into study groups or the like. My teenagers - who should be being thoroughly catechised! - I hardly ever see.

So I have to make decisions about what is the most urgent thing to address in my preaching or teaching, for whichever proportion of people will turn up on that day... and in a church with significant issues which need to be worked on, seldom is Christology the most urgent. I think many parishes would be in the same sort of boat.

I'm not familiar with Anglican Liturgy but I am with the Catholic Mass and I've spoken to priests about this and they tell me it can't be done.....

Why not teach during the homily?
I'm told it's not a classroom but a Mass.
When the first converts gathered they spoke about Jesus' teachings and then had communion.

I suppose, then, we should just continue on this road that leads to nowhere.

I'm protestant, BTW.

 

[OSAS 101]

In broad terms, it concerns the nature and purpose of Christ. Many heresies of old were related to it, yet they persist and seem to be growing again. Some of the big ones were Arianism, Adoptionism, Modalism/Sabellianism, and Nestorianism.

Well, we have a new one.
A sect of messianic Jews are now saying that God the Father (the only God) designated Jesus to save the world through him.
That Jesus is not God.
And the Holy Spirit is just a worker.
Furthermore, people on the fence are buying it, because they don't go to church and are not schooled in anything but what comes to their own mind.

 

[Paidiske]

I'm not familiar with Anglican Liturgy but I am with the Catholic Mass and I've spoken to priests about this and they tell me it can't be done.....

Why not teach during the homily?
I'm told it's not a classroom but a Mass.
When the first converts gathered they spoke about Jesus' teachings and then had communion.

I suppose, then, we should just continue on this road that leads to nowhere.

I'm protestant, BTW.

I can teach during the homily. But...

...it's fifteen or so minutes a week. How much do we expect people to learn in that time? And then, if they're not in church every week, how much are they going to take in, in fragments, if they're not there for a whole series?

And my point actually was, if I've got fifteen minutes a week to shape the hearts and minds of my congregation, is Christology going to be top of the list of what they need to hear that week? Usually not...

 

[OSAS 101]

I believe that many shy away from teaching the Nicene Creed, assuming that it's recitation on a regular of semi regular basis is sufficient. We have allowed theology to become very undisciplined, many seeming to prefer i-theology rather than the ancient wisdom.

This can only be true if one is taught ancient wisdom to begin with.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I propose that Churches offer History of Christianity classes with emphasis on theology.

I think this is a good idea.

Truth is that when I was younger and started to study theology and the history of the faith I was blown away by just how much was never taught to me. Even basic things were never taught.

I was raised in a thoroughly Christian environment: Christian parents, Sunday school since as long as I can remember, and attending Christian private schools until I was in high school. Not to mention various youth group events, and so on.

The thing that shocked me, and made me realize just how much I didn't know, was when reading the Scriptures I came across teaching on the resurrection of the dead. In the first 18 years of my life I had apparently managed to never hear anything pertaining to the future resurrection of the dead. Firstly, I decided to find out if what I was reading in Scripture was accurate, so I looked to make sure I wasn't the only one seeing this--and realized that, quite literally, this was what was always believed since the beginning and was official teaching in literally every major branch and denomination of Christianity. Secondly, I was confused why I didn't know this, so I spoke to my parents, I spoke to Christian friends from both my church and another church where I attended their youth group, and further investigation showed me that the reason I didn't know about this was because nobody was teaching it, and not even the people who should have been teaching me this knew it.

So, I guess to be fair, I began this thread already knowing my answer: Yes, there is a lot not being taught that should be taught, and I know this because I was among those not being taught.

And I get that theology can be a very heavy subject, especially when we get into the nitty gritty of it. But there are ways to address it even without essentially giving people homework: Worship.

The best tool for teaching, communicating, and confessing our faith is worship. Lex orandi Lex credendi, "the law of prayer is the law of belief"--we believe what we pray, we believe what we sing and confess together in worship.

That is, of course, why I think the historic liturgy is so important. But even still, build worship centered around good solid teaching, right theology, because if people have bad worship then they will have bad theology.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[dzheremi]

I would be very interested to see the prayers prayed in the liturgies and/or worship services of those who are noticing this problem among themselves. Perhaps (and this is me being very, very optimistic) some headway could be made in tackling this problem by literally pointing out to people "Look -- this is what we pray, and so when/if you say anything that contradicts this, you are contradicting our own stated faith -- the faith you too affirm every time you come here!" We have had to do this, sometimes in very unusual circumstances (i.e., regular ol' diocesan priests standing up to metropolitans for teaching wrongly!), and it is very effective assuming that you have people who will take correction.

Underlying this approach, I would hope all churches take the principle of lex orandi, lex credendi ("the law of prayer is the law of belief") very seriously.

 

[dzheremi]

Hahaha. I see my friend ViaCrucis has beat me to it regarding lex orandi, lex credendi.

Good.

 

[OSAS 101]

Hahaha. I see my friend ViaCrucis has beat me to it regarding lex orandi, lex credendi.

Good.

I don't know what you are talking about, but does it have anything to do with Jesus or is it just Coptic tradition?

 

[ViaCrucis]

It would be better if OP would clarify what Christology issue is he talking about. However, I can say that I read some comments denying that Mary gave birth to God because "God has always existed".

By and large the "spate of threads" I mention have to do with denying the fundamental truth of the Incarnation and the Hypostatic Union--that God the Son, by His assuming of human nature, has become truly human.

There are certainly some who have issue with Christ's Deity, but my experience is that the larger problem is that, I suspect, our apologetical language has become so focused on defending the Lord's Deity, that His humanity gets left on the sidelines. It is, as you say, people who deny that Mary is Theotokos because they ultimately hold to incorrect Christological views. Because, frankly, the view they hold to--when push comes to shove--is ultimately Nestorian: The Eternal Logos and the man Jesus must be separate, rather than one and the same Person. And so they say that Mary cannot give birth to God, because they think in terms of giving birth to a nature, rather than a Person. Mary does not give birth to a nature, Mary gives birth to a Person--Jesus--who is the eternal, uncreated, living Word--God.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[FatalHeart]

The Creeds say what they say, and to deny the Creeds is to preach heresy.

-CryptoLutheran

"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey the creeds that your cultures will eventually develop." -Matthew 28:19-20.

I find it telling as to what kind of heresy people are worried about.

 

[Paidiske]

I don't know what you are talking about, but does it have anything to do with Jesus or is it just Coptic tradition?

Lex orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi (the Latin's a clue that it's not just Coptic) is a principle which says that how we pray shapes what we believe and how we live.

So, to give a very basic example, if we deliberately include many prayers of thanksgiving in our worship, that inculcates an attitude of gratitude, and in turn, out of that gratitude we may behave more generously towards our neighbour.

The point being made here is that we can (in theory) teach good theology by having corporate prayers which express good theology. I will admit that I have found, in real life, that people are quite capable of allowing the prayers to wash over them week by week and not taking in the implications, so I suspect we are at the point where we need to explicitly teach the implications of what we pray, but the basic principle stands.

 

[OSAS 101]

Lex orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi (the Latin's a clue that it's not just Coptic) is a principle which says that how we pray shapes what we believe and how we live.

So, to give a very basic example, if we deliberately include many prayers of thanksgiving in our worship, that inculcates an attitude of gratitude, and in turn, out of that gratitude we may behave more generously towards our neighbour.

The point being made here is that we can (in theory) teach good theology by having corporate prayers which express good theology. I will admit that I have found, in real life, that people are quite capable of allowing the prayers to wash over them week by week and not taking in the implications, so I suspect we are at the point where we need to explicitly teach the implications of what we pray, but the basic principle stands.

Very good, that's what we do at our prayer group at church
And it is growing because God is working miracles in the lives of the newbies
And we see prayers answered on our prayer list
We preach to each other the Word of God and we hold to it all week long
And our relationship with God grows with it

Is that what you mean?

 

[ViaCrucis]

I don't know what you are talking about, but does it have anything to do with Jesus or is it just Coptic tradition?

It's a pretty standard principle across Christian traditions. The phrase is Latin, but reflects a broad Christian truth. It's also, in a lot of ways, something of a common sense idea. From a purely observational standpoint. Consider when you were in grade school and you had to remember things, you may have been taught to sing a little song, or rhyme to aid in memorization. The human mind seems to be able to retain information when it is sung, it is easier to remember the lyrics of a song than it is to remember a speech.

But the basic principle is really as it is: our beliefs are shaped and formed by our worship, our prayers, our confession, etc. Not merely in theory, but in practice we see this. Which is why, historically, hymns have been some of the most instrumental tools of teaching we have in Christianity.

When Arius began preaching his heresy in the region of Palestine, one of the ways he was so successful in disseminating his ideas was that he wrote really catchy songs.

Martin Luther recognized the importance of this, it is why he believed it was so important that the Mass be done in the vernacular of the people, and stressed the importance congregational singing and having hymns which very clearly articulate matters of faith. Luther also thought retaining Latin was important, but that the people should learn it; he also believed in possibly introducing Greek and Hebrew. Teaching the faith through our worship was a major aspect of his focus on reforming the Mass.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[GodsGrace101]

I don't know what you are talking about, but does it have anything to do with Jesus or is it just Coptic tradition?

Using my Italian, it means something like:
I hear
I believe
I live

I believe what I hear and live it...

 

[OSAS 101]

Using my Italian, it means something like:
I hear
I believe
I live

I believe what I hear and live it...

amo
amas
amat

that's the only thing I remember....

 

[GodsGrace101]

amo
amas
amat

that's the only thing I remember....

Latin?

 

[OSAS 101]

domino nabisco
et cum spiri 2 2 0

 

[GodsGrace101]

I can teach during the homily. But...

...it's fifteen or so minutes a week. How much do we expect people to learn in that time? And then, if they're not in church every week, how much are they going to take in, in fragments, if they're not there for a whole series?

And my point actually was, if I've got fifteen minutes a week to shape the hearts and minds of my congregation, is Christology going to be top of the list of what they need to hear that week? Usually not...

I do attend Mass because that's what I have here...
I'm of the opinion that if solid teaching was done, persons would be more interested and listen more and at least they would learn their faith. So many catholics don't even know their faith.

 

[Paidiske]

Very good, that's what we do at our prayer group at church
And it is growing because God is working miracles in the lives of the newbies
And we see prayers answered on our prayer list
We preach to each other the Word of God and we hold to it all week long
And our relationship with God grows with it

Is that what you mean?

I think you're describing something relatively informal and unscripted?

The practice I'm immersed in is quite the opposite, where we have formal set prayers, which have been crafted to express good theology.

But either way the principle will hold; how we pray shapes how we believe and live...

 

[dqhall]

Or, is it due to the doctrinal chaos of Protestantism? Over 6,000 registered denominations, plus 20,000+ so-called "non-denominational" churches, each claiming to be teaching Christological truth "right out of the Bible", yet the teaching of each one conflicting with the teaching of the others? Truth cannot conflict with truth, so what's going on here? No wonder the plainly stated will of Jesus Christ was, and still is, "that they all may be ONE, even as I and my heavenly Father are ONE".

I remember Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. I do not need a seminary class in Christology to be qualified to read the Sermon on the Mount. There is a room in a city 12 time zones away where someone might read the same Sermon on the Mount and try to practice some kindness as a result. That is not a threat to me. I do not need to attract people from another denomination to fill empty seats in a church. Whether or not they are paying their tithes and offerings is of little concern to me.

Just an empty chair and some time to read the Bible again. There is a YouTube sermon somewhere I have not heard yet. Maybe I will hear another good sermon. Duncan Campbell resigned as minister of his church and answered a calling to go to another part of Scotland to preach revival meetings. He planned to stay there two weeks. He stayed three years. People walked miles to hear him preach. The Holy Spirit was calling people. The town bar closed.