Are our churches failing at properly teaching Christology?

ViaCrucis

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Given the recent spate of Christological threads which have challenged, and indeed outright attacked, the orthodox Christological teaching, it seems like it is worth asking if the reason for so much confusion is because people are being improperly catechized in our churches.

Or is this less of a failure of churches properly teaching the faith, and more representative of rogue theology?

Or both?

And how do we address these problems in our church communities?

-CryptoLutheran
 

redleghunter

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Given the recent spate of Christological threads which have challenged, and indeed outright attacked, the orthodox Christological teaching, it seems like it is worth asking if the reason for so much confusion is because people are being improperly catechized in our churches.

Or is this less of a failure of churches properly teaching the faith, and more representative of rogue theology?

Or both?

And how do we address these problems in our church communities?

-CryptoLutheran
Thanks for this OP. Currently reading a John Piper book on how churches today pack their calendars with such fluff the very foundations of our Christian faith are ignored.

But you are right. Christology should be taught in Catechism classes and youth and adult Bible study small groups.
 
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FireDragon76

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Many forms of evangelicalism and pentecostalism in the US are less driven by doctrine, and more by experience or community values, and are very much prone to falling back on the opinio legis as the core of Christian identity. If you're an Arian or Sabellian, that's less important than what your stance is on abortion, gay marriage, or Christian cultural symbols in the public square.
 
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8484838

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Many forms of evangelicalism and pentecostalism in the US are less driven by doctrine, and more by experience or community values, and are very much prone to falling back on the opinio legis as the core of Christian identity. If you're an Arian or Sabellian, that's less important than what your stance is on abortion, gay marriage, or Christian cultural symbols in the public square.
Attacking the Deity of Christ calls into question one's salvation, so I wouldn't say being Arian is a light thing. Perhaps misconstruing the Trinity or not understanding fully the nature of God is a lighter offence (seeing as how God is unsearchable), but Arians are no better than modern day Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons.
 
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FireDragon76

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Attacking the Deity of Christ calls into question one's salvation, so I wouldn't say being Arian is a light thing. Perhaps misconstruing the Trinity or not understanding fully the nature of God is a lighter offence (seeing as how God is unsearchable), but Arians are no better than modern day Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons.

Of the two, Sabellianism seems far more common. There are whole denominations made of Sabellians, most are Pentecostal.

I see alot of Nestorianism, Eutychianism, and Kenoticism floating around as well.
 
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8484838

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Of the two, Sabellianism seems far more common. There are whole denominations made of Sabellians, most are Pentecostal.

I see alot of Nestorianism, Docetism, and Kenoticism floating around as well.
True, but I don't think Pentecostals are believing a more damnable heresy because they believe God is one God. True, they deny the triune nature of God as it stands biblically, but they don't flat out deny the deity of Christ as the Arians do. There isn't a warning in the Bible that necessarily explicitly states that if a person misconstrue the Godhead, that they will be unsaved.

However, if a person doesn't believe that Jesus is God, they are most definitely unsaved.

John 8:24 “I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.”
 
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ViaCrucis

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What attacks are you referring to?

I don't know if it would be in poor taste to link to them here, but if you look through the active threads here on General Theology you can find several of them, unless some of them have been locked or deleted and I didn't notice it.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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FireDragon76

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But Arians did not deny the deity of Christ either. They just construed deity so that Christ could be a Neo-platonic demi-god. Arians still worshipped Christ, after all.
 
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8484838

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But Arians did not deny the deity of Christ either. They just construed deity so that Christ could be a platonic demi-god. Arians still worshipped Christ, after all.
But they did not believe Christ to be the Creator, if I'm not mistaken.
 
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FireDragon76

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But they did not believe Christ to be the Creator, if I'm not mistaken.

Alot of what we know about the Arians is very much second-hand, written by their enemies. I wouldn't be surprised if they believed the created Logos was involved in creation, it seems consistent with their Neo-Platonic presuppositions.

Of course, not all Protestant Christology is strictly Nicenean-Constantinopolitan. Since the Reformation, we've been wrestling with the Bible and Christian tradition to see if we could do better. But the Nicene Creed is still the touchstone.

The main thing about Arianism is that it would mean that salvation by grace would be nonsensical. Pelagianism would fit Arianism better. Obedience makes you divine and acceptable to God. It doesn't surprise me that Mormons and JW's essentially see salvation in those terms.
 
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ViaCrucis

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But they did not believe Christ to be the Creator, if I'm not mistaken.

They believed Jesus was the creator of the material universe, but that He Himself was the creation of God the Father. Making Jesus the Platonic Demiurge of the Arian system.

From the Arian creed of Ulfilas:

"I, Wulfila (Ulfilas), Bishop and Confessor, have always believed thus and in this sole true faith I make my journey to my Lord,

I believe that there is only one God the Father, alone unbegotten and invisible, and in His only-begotten Son, our Lord and God, creator and maker of all things, not having any like unto Him. Therefore there is one God of all, who is also God of our God, and I believe in one Holy Spirit, an enlightening and sanctifying power. As Christ says after the resurrection to His apostles: 'Behold I send the promise of My Father upon you; but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem until ye be clothed with power from on high.' And again: 'And ye shall receive power coming upon you by the Holy Spirit.' Neither God nor Lord, but the faithful minister of Christ; not equal, but subject and obedient in all things to the Son. And I believe the Son to be subject and obedient in all things to God the Father.
" - Creed of Ulfilas, as recorded in the letter of his follower Auxentius, translated by Jim Marchand

For the Arians there were two Gods: The Father and the Son. The Father created the Son by begetting Him at some point in ages past, and that the Son acted as the intermediary, creating the heavens and the earth. Thus making Jesus a kind of Demiurge of the Platonic variety--the intermediary divine power between the supreme God and the material universe.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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dzheremi

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Well how much time do you spend on this?

I'm not a member of a Western church, but what strikes me when comparing how you guys tend to do things is that they seem to be very, very abbreviated. This is in those churches that even have a preserved form of liturgy, that is. I dunno about whatever else is out there.

This may very well be one of those things wherein spending quality time on it involves setting aside a large quantity of time, too, given how central the topic is. If your people aren't getting it in their liturgies which should be the standard of faith, it ought to be up to the relevant authorities to step in and drill the necessary information into peoples' heads, as befits the situation. Ya can't have a bunch of folks out there claiming to be whatever and then just preaching whatever seems to be the case to them. Not in traditional churches, anyway, or else you'll have a bunch of new Marcions, Ariuses, Sabelliuses, Eutyches' (Eutychii?), Pelgiuses, etc. on your hands. And nobody wants that!
 
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tampasteve

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The simple reason is that many (most?) unaffiliated and non-denominational churches just do not address it at all, and many denominational do not either. They leave it at Jesus is God and that is about as deep as any Sunday sermon gets as their focus is on the love of God, the love of Jesus. If they have a membership class it is a hour or two long and does not delve into those matters. Some churches still have a longer catechism or membership class that does delve into these matters more, but they are more common in mainline, mainstream denominational, and more liturgical churches. That is not to say that unaffiliated and non-Denom churches do not have classes that talk about this, but I see it as less common.

So, to directly answer: yes, it is a problem that people are not being properly catechized in the churches.
 
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FireDragon76

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Then they face difficulties in life where that spiritual buzz just ain't there, and a hard-nosed skeptic comes along and smashes their fragile worldview.

"my people are destroyed from lack of knowledge." - Hosea 4:6
 
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GodsGrace101

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Given the recent spate of Christological threads which have challenged, and indeed outright attacked, the orthodox Christological teaching, it seems like it is worth asking if the reason for so much confusion is because people are being improperly catechized in our churches.

Or is this less of a failure of churches properly teaching the faith, and more representative of rogue theology?

Or both?

And how do we address these problems in our church communities?

-CryptoLutheran
What is Christology?
 
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tampasteve

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What is Christology?
In broad terms, it concerns the nature and purpose of Christ. Many heresies of old were related to it, yet they persist and seem to be growing again. Some of the big ones were Arianism, Adoptionism, Modalism/Sabellianism, and Nestorianism.
 
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AnticipateHisComing

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Given the recent spate of Christological threads which have challenged, and indeed outright attacked, the orthodox Christological teaching, it seems like it is worth asking if the reason for so much confusion is because people are being improperly catechized in our churches.
If someone was creating threads that were against the established rules to post in GT based on a common minimum of what is consider Christian, than those threads would be moved. If another wishes to impose his ideas of what define "orthodox" to something other than the SOF, then they don't understand the purpose of debate.
 
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AnticipateHisComing

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And how do we address these problems in our church communities?
Exactly as the Bereans, test what is said against scripture. If you can't defend what you believe, don't complain about it.

Acts 17:11 Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.​
 
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