Are our churches failing at properly teaching Christology?

[Daniel Martinovich]

Of the two, Sabellianism seems far more common. There are whole denominations made of Sabellians, most are Pentecostal.

I see alot of Nestorianism, Eutychianism, and Kenoticism floating around as well.

Been in Pentecostal circles 35 years. Never heard of Sabellianism, nor any Pentacostals who believe in it.

 

[Paidiske]

It pops up every now and again on CF. What some folks call "Oneness" Pentecostalism.

 

[PloverWing]

Here's a question for those of you who are parents. It has come to my mind off and on over the years, but especially now that my children are young adults. (One's in high school, one's in college, and one's a recent college graduate.)

I made an effort to teach my kids about the Christian faith at home, partly because that's just something parents should do, and partly because we knew that they would not be receiving religious instruction at their public school. (For readers outside the US: American public schools are not allowed to include religious instruction in their curriculum.) I'd say we had mixed success. Mostly, what we did together was driven by their interests and questions. When they were little, I read to them out of a children's Bible. When they were older, they'd ask questions about ethical issues on the news or in their personal lives, and we'd talk about those questions and how Christian principles applied to them. All of that was good, but as I look back, I realize that they never did ask "Mommy, what's the Chalcedonian Definition?" or "Mommy, what does the first paragraph of the Nicene Creed mean?" So there are gaps in this home-schooled education. I don't know how much of a problem that is.

So, for those of you who are parents: What do you do at home with your children to help them get a solid theological education? Do you have official "classes" around the kitchen table? (I didn't, after preschool age.) Do you read the Bible with them and hope they'll ask the deeper questions sooner or later? Are your conversations simply driven by your children's own curiosities, like mine mostly were? What has worked for you?

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

The simple reason is that many (most?) unaffiliated and non-denominational churches just do not address it at all, and many denominational do not either. They leave it at Jesus is God and that is about as deep as any Sunday sermon gets as their focus is on the love of God, the love of Jesus. If they have a membership class it is a hour or two long and does not delve into those matters. Some churches still have a longer catechism or membership class that does delve into these matters more, but they are more common in mainline, mainstream denominational, and more liturgical churches. That is not to say that unaffiliated and non-Denom churches do not have classes that talk about this, but I see it as less common.

So, to directly answer: yes, it is a problem that people are not being properly catechized in the churches.

Well there is an answer I can agree with. Perhaps I could add that the elders and pastors haven’t really confidently thought the subject through themselves.

 

[zippy2006]

Here's a question for those of you who are parents. It has come to my mind off and on over the years, but especially now that my children are young adults. (One's in high school, one's in college, and one's a recent college graduate.)

I made an effort to teach my kids about the Christian faith at home, partly because that's just something parents should do, and partly because we knew that they would not be receiving religious instruction at their public school. (For readers outside the US: American public schools are not allowed to include religious instruction in their curriculum.) I'd say we had mixed success. Mostly, what we did together was driven by their interests and questions. When they were little, I read to them out of a children's Bible. When they were older, they'd ask questions about ethical issues on the news or in their personal lives, and we'd talk about those questions and how Christian principles applied to them. All of that was good, but as I look back, I realize that they never did ask "Mommy, what's the Chalcedonian Definition?" or "Mommy, what does the first paragraph of the Nicene Creed mean?" So there are gaps in this home-schooled education. I don't know how much of a problem that is.

So, for those of you who are parents: What do you do at home with your children to help them get a solid theological education? Do you have official "classes" around the kitchen table? (I didn't, after preschool age.) Do you read the Bible with them and hope they'll ask the deeper questions sooner or later? Are your conversations simply driven by your children's own curiosities, like mine mostly were? What has worked for you?

This is thread-worthy.

 

[PloverWing]

This is thread-worthy.

Thanks! I've created another thread now, also here in the General Theology forum, titled "Theological education for our children", in case anyone wants to discuss ideas for parents trying to teach theology in the home.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Or is this less of a failure of churches properly teaching the faith, and more representative of rogue theology?

Proverbs 3 "5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding; 6 in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will make your paths straight"

We are not going to figure it all out. WE have to trust that God has everything under control.

 

[Jipsah]

Been in Pentecostal circles 35 years. Never heard of Sabellianism, nor any Pentacostals who believe in it.

They wouldn't call themselves Sabellians, or generally even know where their doctrine originated. There are many different flavors of Pentecostalists so I won't tar them all with the same brush, but the UPC is Sabellian out to 10 decimal places, whether they know to all it that or not. It's real easy to reinvent ancient heresies if you never knew they existed in the first place.

 

[dzheremi]

It's real easy to reinvent ancient heresies if you never knew they existed in the first place.

This should be the title of the Christology series taught at the churches that are having these problems. I think it sums up the problem pretty well, and would be likely to get peoples' attention, since nobody who actually goes to a mainstream church wants to be a heretic or is naturally likely to consider themselves one.

 

[Tutorman]

I find it telling when someone thinks their creeds deem another not suitable for posting in a Christian forum.

CF rules are that you must agree with the Nicene Creed to post in the Christian section, if one does not agree then one can not post in the Christian section at all.

 

[Paidiske]

This should be the title of the Christology series taught at the churches that are having these problems. I think it sums up the problem pretty well, and would be likely to get peoples' attention, since nobody who actually goes to a mainstream church wants to be a heretic or is naturally likely to consider themselves one.

Actually, I've found quite a few people quite apathetic at the prospect.

I remember doing a teaching series once where, when we got to the resurrection of the body, people told me flatly they didn't believe that, and they didn't care what the Scriptures or the Apostles' Creed had to say about it!

 

[NW82]

We base our knowledge on their interpretation.

You first have to define who "they" are. Second you have to compare what they say to the Bible.

It would be better if OP would clarify what Christology issue is he talking about. However, I can say that I read some comments denying that Mary gave birth to God because "God has always existed".

Depends on what you mean by "gave birth to God". Did God come from Mary, certainly not. Was Mary the tool used by God to bring God incarnate to Earth, yes. Big big difference.

 

[Halbhh]

Right I think it’s that ‘seeker friendly’ mentality not only being pandered by many congregations but is what many people are looking for. IRL when I ask them about their particular church they proclaim loud and proud it is a bible preaching church but when questioning them on Christian doctrines 101 their contributions to the conversation tends to run short and I typically see a glazed look in their eyes when I continue the subject.

This is because 98%+ people in most every church, including Lutheran (and a high portion of Catholic too is my guess) would have little clue about many of the doctrinal distinctions being discussed in this thread past simply knowing what the Trinity is, or being familiar with the wording of the creeds. How many know what "Arian" is without looking it up? Why not ask 10 at random in your own congregating you don't discuss theology with, and find out. I'd be surprised if even 1 knows. Why would they need to? They learned of the Trinity, and that was it. But fortunately it's not such fine knowledge of various old disputes that saves anyone, but faith in Christ and what He said, even for someone knowing little more than that He rose and they are forgiven through Him and that we should love one another and can pray the prayer He gave us. Little knowledge is required for salvation, and having all doctrines correct is optimal but optional also. Most never worry themselves with such, but correctly worry instead to forgive another or whether they love as they should, crucial things that do matter for their individual walk.

 

[dzheremi]

Actually, I've found quite a few people quite apathetic at the prospect.

I remember doing a teaching series once where, when we got to the resurrection of the body, people told me flatly they didn't believe that, and they didn't care what the Scriptures or the Apostles' Creed had to say about it!

Well that's troubling. I certainly hope that they would be barred from communion, and if they continued without repentance, probably anathematized lest their ideas spread to others. That's just not acceptable at all.

You may not be able to either convince or force someone to personally believe or care, but then I would just have to ask them: if that's your attitude, why do you bother showing up? What is it that you think we're doing here, exactly?

If I were to adopt such a purely secular/humanistic perspective, I could think of much better things with my Sundays, as I'm sure we all could, but y'know...we believe in God and all.

Lord have mercy!

 

[Paidiske]

Well that's troubling. I certainly hope that they would be barred from communion, and if they continued without repentance, probably anathematized lest their ideas spread to others. That's just not acceptable at all.

You may not be able to either convince or force someone to personally believe or care, but then I would just have to ask them: if that's your attitude, why do you bother showing up? What is it that you think we're doing here, exactly?

If I were to adopt such a purely secular/humanistic perspective, I could think of much better things with my Sundays, as I'm sure we all could, but y'know...we believe in God and all.

Lord have mercy!

That's... not really the Anglican way. I very much doubt that my bishop would allow me to bar someone from communion just because they believe the dead go to some floaty disembodied heavenly existence instead of anticipating a bodily resurrection.

 

[dzheremi]

Yeah, I figured...

(I was really hoping I was wrong, though!)

 

[Jipsah]

So, for those of you who are parents: What do you do at home with your children to help them get a solid theological education?

I catechized my youngest my own self, using the Heidelberg Catechism. I always walked all of my SS students through the Apostle's Creed, line by line, and since my young'uns were always there (no choice, yes, I forced my kids to go to church!) then they got the full effect in the classroom and in discussion in the coffee shop after church and the drive home. I'm pretty confident that they have a pretty fair grasp of Christianity 101. Large daughter is now a Lutheran (she lives in Denmark and her parish kirke is a block away, so why not?) and small daughter is a staunch Anglican. IMO they both understand what they believe, and why.

The bad news is that that's really uncommon. In most of the churches with which I'm familiar, there is no catechism class, and there is no Christianity 101 type Sunday School. Sunday School curricula tend to follow no particular path at all, studying Moses one quarter and dashing through the Gospel of Matthew the next, more concerned with quantity rather than imparting an understanding of the faith. Then there are the "pragmatic Christianity" curricula that teach why the Faith is better than other religions, or none, and the good old-fashioned American principle of peddling a product. Christianity will make you happier, smarter, better, give you a feeling of security, and put you on God's Favorites list. Doubleplus ungood.

And here's what you end up with. One of the members of the "American"(i.e., not Korean) group at our began hosting a Bible study on Tuesday nights. It was good stuff. One of his neighbors asked if he could join, and of course Dave said yes. First night during coffee after class, neighbor tells us that he's a member of a large evangelical denomination (which one is irrelevant) and he's on fire for the Lord. Said that there were many Muslims at his workplace, and he was witnessing to them. He said that one of the Muslims told him that he couldn't believe that it was proper to worship Jesus. Neighbor said, "I told him we didn't worship Jesus. We worship God." Dave and I both looked like we'd been slapped with a dead carp. This old boy had been sitting in church for YEARS and had no idea that our Lord is God Incarnate, or what that even meant. We tried to bring him up to speed in 30 minutes, which wasn't gonna happen even if he hadn't though we were both loonies, followers of some diabolical Korean cultmeister, or both. He didn't come back.

Net-net is that churches have got to start teaching people Christianity 101, otherwise the Faith is lost to the feel-good, know-nothing, make-it-up-as-you-go, just-me-and-my-Bible, logrolling that leads to the Faith becoming just another social or political activity, something for non-golfers to do on Sunday morning.

 

[Halbhh]

Actually, I've found quite a few people quite apathetic at the prospect.

I remember doing a teaching series once where, when we got to the resurrection of the body, people told me flatly they didn't believe that, and they didn't care what the Scriptures or the Apostles' Creed had to say about it!

Exactly what I've seen also. In a church, not all believe the truly crucial things, such as that Christ rose! Something that does matter for salvation. Their problem is so much more urgent than understanding what's correct or error in some fine doctrinal point.

 

[Jipsah]

The problem then is distinguishing the two authentically .

Easy. Whatever I believe is from the Holy Spirit

 

[Jipsah]

I find it telling when someone thinks their creeds deem another not suitable for posting in a Christian forum.

So lessee, you good with someone who believes in three gods in the Trinity, or that Christ is simply a Great Teacher should be allowed to hold forth here? After all, if they say they're a Christian then they are, whatever nonsense they may believe, right?