Are different Sabbaths true?

guevaraj · Feb 20, 2022

Leaf473 said:
A final piece that I'm trying to research on my phone but having trouble with is that when it's 7:00 p.m. Jerusalem, 7:00 a.m. somewhere else would be 12 time zones away, wouldn't it?

Brother, yes, but that is not the same as a change from evening to morning affected by refraction. You can see the sun a few minutes before it rises and a few minutes after it sets. This is due to refraction! One consequence of the effect of refraction is that, contrary to what most people think, day and night are not exactly 12 hours long on the days of the Equinoxes. Due to the refraction of sunlight, the day is slightly longer than the night in the March Equinox and the September Equinox.

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Leaf473 · Feb 20, 2022

guevaraj said:
Brother, yes, but that is not the same as a change from evening to morning affected by refraction. You can see the sun a few minutes before it rises and a few minutes after it sets. This is due to refraction! One consequence of the effect of refraction is that, contrary to what most people think, day and night are not exactly 12 hours long on the days of the Equinoxes. Due to the refraction of sunlight, the day is slightly longer than the night in the March Equinox and the September Equinox.

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

That would certainly explain the 12 minutes, I don't think it would explain 2 hours.

Are you sure something didn't go wrong with the time zones?

Using that great website in your earlier post:
Table of Sunrise/Sunset, Moonrise/Moonset, or Twilight Times for an Entire Year

And leave everything in its default, except for the longitude and latitude. So it's year 2022, type of table is sunrise/sunset, and time zone is 0 hours West of Greenwich (UTC).

On January 1st, it says sunset in Jerusalem is 1446. Is that what you get too?

And sunrise in Eden is 1658?

guevaraj · Feb 20, 2022

Leaf473 said:
That would certainly explain the 12 minutes, I don't think it would explain 2 hours. Are you sure something didn't go wrong with the time zones?

Brother, I forgot to add the time zone information that I entered when generating the tables and updated my previous post as shown below.

Jerusalem = {Latitude: 31.771959, Longitude: 35.217018} 2h East of Greenwich
Eden = {Latitude: -31.771959, Longitude: 180} 12h East of Greenwich

Leaf473 said:
leave everything in its default, except for the longitude and latitude. So it's year 2022, type of table is sunrise/sunset, and time zone is 0 hours West of Greenwich (UTC). On January 1st, it says sunset in Jerusalem is 1446. Is that what you get too? And sunrise in Eden is 1658?

Yes, I can duplicate your results. It seems to me that the difference of 2 hours and 12 minutes confirms their distance of 10 time zones. United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Leaf473 · Feb 20, 2022

guevaraj said:
Brother, I forgot to add the time zone information that I entered when generating the tables and updated my previous post as shown below.

Jerusalem = {Latitude: 31.771959, Longitude: 35.217018} 2h East of Greenwich
Eden = {Latitude: -31.771959, Longitude: 180} 12h East of Greenwich

Yes, I can duplicate your results. It seems to me that the difference of 2 hours and 12 minutes confirms their distance of 10 time zones. United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Okay, but...

When numbers are the same but the time zones are different, doesn't that mean that the times are different? They are the same number, but they're not happening at the same time?

So if the sun sets at, say, 1900 (UTC+2) in one place and 1900 (UTC+12) in another, those events aren't happening at the same time.

It gets a little confusing, because when we say it's happening at the same time, do we mean the same time of day, like 1900? Or happening at the same moment?

guevaraj · Feb 20, 2022

Leaf473 said:
do we mean the same time of day, like 1900? Or happening at the same moment?

Brother, as I understand the Sabbath, which is described in the Bible in two places: Eden from morning to morning and from evening to evening in the Promised Land. These two Sabbaths are at different times because they are occurring at the same time, so that we all enter the Sabbath together. What we have found is that God's prime meridian is 2 hours and 12 minutes further east of the current site of the International Date Line. Our study shows that the closest-agreed Jewish line is the RAV TUKATZINSKY LINE: This line, at 144.8 ̊W longitude, is exactly on the opposite side of the globe from Jerusalem.

Recorded in the Sabbath tradition maintained by Judaism to this day is the fact that the days of the week begin and end in the morning and not the evening, where the Sabbath falls in Jerusalem, because the Sabbath is remembered in the time zone of creation.

Now if Joshua had succeeded in giving them this rest, God would not have spoken about another day of rest still to come. (Hebrews 4:8 NLT)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Leaf473 · Feb 21, 2022

guevaraj said:
Brother, as I understand the Sabbath, which is described in the Bible in two places: Eden from morning to morning and from evening to evening in the Promised Land. These two Sabbaths are at different times because they are occurring at the same time, so that we all enter the Sabbath together. What we have found is that God's prime meridian is 2 hours and 12 minutes further east of the current site of the International Date Line. Our study shows that the closest-agreed Jewish line is the RAV TUKATZINSKY LINE: This line, at 144.8 ̊W longitude, is exactly on the opposite side of the globe from Jerusalem.

Recorded in the Sabbath tradition maintained by Judaism to this day is the fact that the days of the week begin and end in the morning and not the evening, where the Sabbath falls in Jerusalem, because the Sabbath is remembered in the time zone of creation.

Now if Joshua had succeeded in giving them this rest, God would not have spoken about another day of rest still to come. (Hebrews 4:8 NLT)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

So... In your view, would the coordinates for Eden be

Lat 31.771959 S
Lon 144.8 W

That's what I came up with in my calculations as the place where the sun is rising at the same moment that the sun is setting in Jerusalem all year round.

SabbathBlessings · Feb 21, 2022

Our Savior is not one of confusion! No need for illustrations, maps, IDL , books for sale when all one has to do is read scripture to find everyone can enjoy the Sabbath from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday like everyone has from the very beginning! The teaching in this thread is unbiblical and leading people away from obeying the Sabbath commandment.

The gracious Creator, after the six days of Creation, rested on the seventh day and instituted the Sabbath for all people as a memorial of Creation. The fourth commandment of God’s unchangeable law requires the observance of this seventh-day Sabbath as the day of rest, worship, and ministry in harmony with the teaching and practice of Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath. The Sabbath is a day of delightful communion with God and one another. It is a symbol of our redemption in Christ, a sign of our sanctification, a token of our allegiance, and a foretaste of our eternal future in God’s kingdom. The Sabbath is God’s perpetual sign of His eternal covenant between Him and His people. Joyful observance of this holy time from evening to evening, sunset to sunset, is a celebration of God’s creative and redemptive acts. (Gen. 2:1-3; Exod. 20:8-11; 31:13-17; Lev. 23:32; Deut. 5:12-15; Isa. 56:5, 6; 58:13, 14; Ezek. 20:12, 20; Matt. 12:1-12; Mark 1:32; Luke 4:16; Heb. 4:1-11.)
What Adventists Believe about the Sabbath - Adventist.org

Leaf473 · Feb 21, 2022

SabbathBlessings said:
Our Savior is not one of confusion! No need for illustrations, maps, IDL , books for sale when all one has to do is read scripture to find everyone can enjoy the Sabbath from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday like everyone has from the very beginning! The teaching in this thread is unbiblical and leading people away from obeying the Sabbath commandment.

The gracious Creator, after the six days of Creation, rested on the seventh day and instituted the Sabbath for all people as a memorial of Creation. The fourth commandment of God’s unchangeable law requires the observance of this seventh-day Sabbath as the day of rest, worship, and ministry in harmony with the teaching and practice of Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath. The Sabbath is a day of delightful communion with God and one another. It is a symbol of our redemption in Christ, a sign of our sanctification, a token of our allegiance, and a foretaste of our eternal future in God’s kingdom. The Sabbath is God’s perpetual sign of His eternal covenant between Him and His people. Joyful observance of this holy time from evening to evening, sunset to sunset, is a celebration of God’s creative and redemptive acts. (Gen. 2:1-3; Exod. 20:8-11; 31:13-17; Lev. 23:32; Deut. 5:12-15; Isa. 56:5, 6; 58:13, 14; Ezek. 20:12, 20; Matt. 12:1-12; Mark 1:32; Luke 4:16; Heb. 4:1-11.)
What Adventists Believe about the Sabbath - Adventist.org

In your view, how does that work for people in Barrow, Alaska? The sun might not set for hundreds of hours at a time.

If the day of the week always ends at the local sunset, it's a completely different day up there.

SabbathBlessings · Feb 21, 2022

Leaf473 said:
In your view, how does that work for people in Barrow, Alaska? The sun might not set for hundreds of hours at a time.

If the day of the week always ends at the local sunset, it's a completely different day up there.

That area is an anomaly, and we have a reasonable God so from Friday even to Saturday even worshipping our Savior on the day He blessed, sanctified and made holy to us and for Him seems reasonable.

Leaf473 · Feb 21, 2022

SabbathBlessings said:
That area is an anomaly, and we have a reasonable God so from Friday even to Saturday even worshipping our Savior on the day He blessed, sanctified and made holy to us and for Him seems reasonable.

Okay, but... If the letter of the law defines a day as local evening to local evening*, then the days are way out of sync in northern and southern parts of the globe.

It seems unreasonable to me that the Sabbath would start at different times in different places of the earth. If God rested on the 7th 24-hour day, how did that work when there were places on Earth where that 7th day hadn't started yet? Even at the equator, go a few miles west and the sun hasn't set yet.

From my point of view, the unreasonable part is attempting to keep the letter of the law. But we've talked about that already on other threads.

*Or local morning to local morning, if you prefer.

guevaraj · Feb 21, 2022

Leaf473 said:
So... In your view, would the coordinates for Eden be: Lat 31.771959 S, Lon 144.8 W. That's what I came up with in my calculations as the place where the sun is rising at the same moment that the sun is setting in Jerusalem all year round.

Brother, I am closer by 8 minutes with Longitude: 146.7863 W with a maximum deviation of 1 minute throughout the year. Both tables are generated at zero: Universal Time.

Jerusalem: 31.7683, 35.2137 (31°46', 35°13')
Eden: -31.7683, -146.7863 (-31°46',-146°47')

1 - day of the year 2022
2 - evening in Jerusalem
3 - morning in Eden

columns defined above
1 14:46 14:45
2 14:47 14:46
3 14:48 14:47
4 14:49 14:48
5 14:49 14:48
6 14:50 14:49
7 14:51 14:50
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12 14:55 14:54
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18 15:00 15:00
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United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

SabbathBlessings · Feb 21, 2022

Leaf473 said:
Okay, but... If the letter of the law defines a day as local evening to local evening*, then the days are way out of sync in northern and southern parts of the globe.

It seems unreasonable to me that the Sabbath would start at different times in different places of the earth. If God rested on the 7th 24-hour day, how did that work when there were places on Earth where that 7th day hadn't started yet? Even at the equator, go a few miles west and the sun hasn't set yet.

From my point of view, the unreasonable part is attempting to keep the letter of the law. But we've talked about that already on other threads.

*Or local morning to local morning, if you prefer.

In areas where the sun does not go down, a day is still a 24 hour period. God is reasonable when there are limitations beyond one's control when trying to obey and honor God's commandment. Personally, I would be more concerned with our own obedience to the sabbath commandment, which starts at sunset Friday Matthew 28:1 and ends Saturday at sunset. If you don't live in Alaska than I wouldn't worry about it. The Sabbath keepers in Alaska I am sure find a way to honor this commandment.

Leaf473 · Feb 21, 2022

guevaraj said:
Brother, I am closer by 8 minutes with Longitude: 146.7863 W with a maximum deviation of 1 minute throughout the year. Both tables are generated at zero: Universal Time.

Jerusalem: 31.7683, 35.2137 (31°46', 35°13')
Eden: -31.7683, -146.7863 (-31°46',-146°47')

1 - day of the year 2022
2 - evening in Jerusalem
3 - morning in Eden

columns defined above
1 14:46 14:45
2 14:47 14:46
3 14:48 14:47
4 14:49 14:48
5 14:49 14:48
6 14:50 14:49
7 14:51 14:50
8 14:52 14:51
9 14:53 14:52
10 14:53 14:53
11 14:54 14:54
12 14:55 14:54
13 14:56 14:55
14 14:57 14:56
15 14:58 14:57
16 14:59 14:58
17 14:59 14:59
18 15:00 15:00
19 15:01 15:01
20 15:02 15:02
21 15:03 15:03
22 15:04 15:03
23 15:05 15:04
24 15:06 15:05
25 15:07 15:06
26 15:08 15:07
27 15:09 15:08
28 15:10 15:09
29 15:10 15:10
30 15:11 15:11
31 15:12 15:12
32 15:13 15:13
33 15:14 15:14
34 15:15 15:15
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36 15:17 15:17
37 15:18 15:17
38 15:19 15:18
39 15:20 15:19
40 15:20 15:20
41 15:21 15:21
42 15:22 15:22
43 15:23 15:23
44 15:24 15:24
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46 15:26 15:25
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United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Well, there you go! Thanks for the info and conversation.

Peace be with you!

Leaf473 · Feb 21, 2022

SabbathBlessings said:
In areas where the sun does not go down, a day is still a 24 hour period. God is reasonable when there are limitations beyond one's control when trying to obey and honor God's commandment. Personally, I would be more concerned with our own obedience to the sabbath commandment, which starts at sunset Friday Matthew 28:1 and ends Saturday at sunset. If you don't live in Alaska than I wouldn't worry about it. The Sabbath keepers in Alaska I am sure find a way to honor this commandment.

I don't doubt that Sabbath keepers in the far North and South have come up with workarounds. But in doing that, they probably aren't following the letter of the law. Well... That's how it looks to me, anyway.

Peace be with you!

SabbathBlessings · Feb 21, 2022

Leaf473 said:
I don't doubt that Sabbath keepers in the far North and South have come up with workarounds. But in doing that, they probably aren't following the letter of the law. Well... That's how it looks to me, anyway.

Peace be with you!

I am sure the Sabbath keepers in those areas find a way to keep the seventh day Sabbath for a full 24 hours. Sadly, a lot of people who don’t have those obstacles don’t even make an attempt to keep God’s Sabbath commandment.

Leaf473 · Feb 22, 2022

SabbathBlessings said:
I am sure the Sabbath keepers in those areas find a way to keep the seventh day Sabbath for a full 24 hours. Sadly, a lot of people who don’t have those obstacles don’t even make an attempt to keep God’s Sabbath commandment.

What I'm hearing is in this case go with the intent of the law, not the letter. And that's fine. That's what I think, also. So you and I actually agree there, go with the intent of the law.

But there is wisdom to be found in the letters of the law. Does the law say that the day starts at evening? Then that's what we look into imo.

The only question then is does the Sabbath move around as evening moves around all over the earth? Or is it more reasonable to say that there is a fixed point at which evening is observed, and thus a fixed point for the beginning of the Sabbath?

Many people say God is into order not disorder, so having it be the Sabbath all over the Earth at the same time is the most orderly thing imo.

So a fixed point for the Sabbath seems the most reasonable.

And that fits with Isaiah 66 where all flesh comes to worship God on the Sabbath, and they come to a particular place. That place is Jerusalem, so evening in Jerusalem as the fixed point for the Sabbath is the reasonable thing imo.

SabbathBlessings · Feb 22, 2022

Leaf473 said:
What I'm hearing is in this case go with the intent of the law, not the letter. And that's fine. That's what I think, also. So you and I actually agree there, go with the intent of the law.

But there is wisdom to be found in the letters of the law. Does the law say that the day starts at evening? Then that's what we look into imo.

The only question then is does the Sabbath move around as evening moves around all over the earth? Or is it more reasonable to say that there is a fixed point at which evening is observed, and thus a fixed point for the beginning of the Sabbath?

Many people say God is into order not disorder, so having it be the Sabbath all over the Earth at the same time is the most orderly thing imo.

So a fixed point for the Sabbath seems the most reasonable.

And that fits with Isaiah 66 where all flesh comes to worship God on the Sabbath, and they come to a particular place. That place is Jerusalem, so evening in Jerusalem as the fixed point for the Sabbath is the reasonable thing imo.

Oh dear, sadly you seem to be buying into this unbiblical interpretation. There is no scripture that says the Sabbath starts only in Jerusalem. The Jews have been keeping the Sabbath correctly from the days of Jesus and it’s always been from Friday sundown to Saturday sunday just like the scripture says.

Take care and God bless- signing out of this thread.

guevaraj · Feb 22, 2022

SabbathBlessings said:
Oh dear, sadly you seem to be buying into this unbiblical interpretation. There is no scripture that says the Sabbath starts only in Jerusalem. The Jews have been keeping the Sabbath correctly from the days of Jesus and it’s always been from Friday sundown to Saturday sunday just like the scripture says. Take care and God bless- signing out of this thread.

Sister, though our prophetess did verify that Judaism is keeping the Sabbath in Jerusalem correctly, the angel said that we will learn more in the future. The angel told us what we will learn after learning "what even is". We will learn "when it is"! Even falls in the middle of the first day and not as supposed was at the beginning because the Sabbath in the Promised Land is not as supposed a day of the week. Note that the angel speaks positively that we will "understand, but not yet, not yet". God helped our church understand the longest time to make this correction by holding an incorrect hour for more than 8 years before doing the Bible study to learn more.

I saw that it is even so: “From even unto even, shall ye celebrate your Sabbath.” Said the angel: “Take the word of God, read it, understand, and ye cannot err. Read carefully, and ye shall there find what even is, and when it is.” I asked the angel if the frown of God had been upon His people for commencing the Sabbath as they had. I was directed back to the first rise of the Sabbath, and followed the people of God up to this time, but did not see that the Lord was displeased, or frowned upon them. I inquired why it had been thus, that at this late day we must change the time of commencing the Sabbath. Said the angel: “Ye shall understand, but not yet, not yet.” Said the angel: “If light come, and that light is set aside or rejected, then comes condemnation and the frown of God; but before the light comes, there is no sin, for there is no light for them to reject.” I saw that it was in the minds of some that the Lord had shown that the Sabbath commenced at six o'clock, when I had only seen that it commenced at “even,” and it was inferred that even was at six. I saw that the servants of God must draw together, press together. (Testimonies for the Church, vol. 1, Page 116)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

SabbathBlessings · Feb 22, 2022

guevaraj said:
Sister, though our prophetess did verify that Judaism is keeping the Sabbath in Jerusalem correctly, the angel said that we will learn more in the future. The angel told us what we will learn after learning "what even is". We will learn "when it is"! Even falls in the middle of the first day and not as supposed was at the beginning because the Sabbath in the Promised Land is not as supposed a day of the week. Note that the angel speaks positively that we will "understand, but not yet, not yet". God helped our church understand the longest time to make this correction by holding an incorrect hour for more than 8 years before doing the Bible study to learn more.

I saw that it is even so: “From even unto even, shall ye celebrate your Sabbath.” Said the angel: “Take the word of God, read it, understand, and ye cannot err. Read carefully, and ye shall there find what even is, and when it is.” I asked the angel if the frown of God had been upon His people for commencing the Sabbath as they had. I was directed back to the first rise of the Sabbath, and followed the people of God up to this time, but did not see that the Lord was displeased, or frowned upon them. I inquired why it had been thus, that at this late day we must change the time of commencing the Sabbath. Said the angel: “Ye shall understand, but not yet, not yet.” Said the angel: “If light come, and that light is set aside or rejected, then comes condemnation and the frown of God; but before the light comes, there is no sin, for there is no light for them to reject.” I saw that it was in the minds of some that the Lord had shown that the Sabbath commenced at six o'clock, when I had only seen that it commenced at “even,” and it was inferred that even was at six. I saw that the servants of God must draw together, press together. (Testimonies for the Church, vol. 1, Page 116)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

The number of things taken out of context is too much to address. I find it odd you keep referring to "our prophetess" when your teaching is completely against the biblical teaching on the Sabbath and teachings of EGW. This is YOUR teaching and not anything the SDA church believes.

guevaraj · Feb 22, 2022

SabbathBlessings said:
The number of things taken out of context is too much to address. I find it odd you keep referring to "our prophetess" when your teaching is completely against the biblical teaching on the Sabbath and teachings of EGW. This is YOUR teaching and not anything the SDA church believes.

Sister, there is a difference between what her inspiration wrote and what she personally understood. Daniel did not understand the future events that his inspiration told us. United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Are different Sabbaths true?

Which is most correct?

The Eden Sabbath began and ended at sunrise.

Israel’s Sabbath begins and ends at sundown.

Both above statements are true.

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