ApoB not LDL cholesterol in blood work.

[Laodicean60]

In other threads FireDragon76, timewerx, myst33, and I have been dicussing (arguing lol) camp diets and health Fire brought up apoB and I decided to investigate the science. There is a misconception about cholesterol that we’ve heard about for so many years and it is found that apoB is a driver to cardiovascular disease. I have a genetic disposition to high cholesterol and take statins. To sum it all up, eat whole foods, move your butts, reduce sugar and saturated fats. Stay healthy all. (my comments)

apolipoprotein b (apoB) has lipoprotein particles that are harmful to our arteries and has been found to cause cardiovascular disease..

apoB- protein that more accurately identifies the risk associated with LDL cholesterol

apoB not LDL- “summary, the number of LDL particles (i.e. apoB level) has been shown to be more strongly causally related to ASCVD than the cholesterol content (i.e. LDL-C level)”

Diets- “The Mediterranean diet, vegan diet, fermented dairy products, lower sugar intake, higher protein intake, higher polyunsaturated fat intake, and an omega-3–rich diet are associated with a decreased apoB:apoA1 ratio.”

Exercise- “Physical activity was found to be usually associated with an increase in HDL cholesterol and a decrease in LDL cholesterol and triglycerides. Exercise, apart from inducing quantitative alterations in serum lipids, exerts a beneficial impact on HDL particle maturation, composition and functionality.” (amongst many other things)

Other issues associated with health.

Metabolic Syndrome (MetS)-“ Metabolic syndrome (MetS) risks cardiovascular diseases due to its associated Dyslipidemia. It is proposed that a low-carbohydrate, high-fat (LCHF) diet positively ameliorates the MetS and reverses insulin resistance.” (Ketogenic, carnivoir diet with high-unsaturated/low-saturated-fat)

Vegetable oils- “However, the repeatedly heated vegetable oils increase the effect of lipid peroxidation and aggravate the development of CVD.”

Western diets- (are a major cause of the diseases we see today.) “The “modern” Western diet is characterized by a high content of saturated fats, sugar, corn-derived fructose syrup, proteins (derived from fatty domesticated and processed meats), refined grains, low fiber content, salt, and reduced consumption of fruits and vegetables [2]. The “modern” Western diet and lifestyle may have played an important etiological role in the pathogenesis of the metabolic syndrome and its consequences.”

Time Restricted Feeding TRF (intermittent fasting)- “The results of this analysis showed that TRE is an effective treatment strategy for patients who are overweight and obese. Participants using a TRE schedule lost bodyweight and showed a decrease in fat mass. TRE significantly lowered systolic blood pressure and glucose concentration. TRE also changed the lipid profiles of participants”

Added sugars- “In conclusion, very little scientific evidence exists that indicates a benefit of added dietary sugars; however, an overwhelming and growing body of evidence highlights the negative effects of excessive or prolonged sugar intake. This is particularly significant for fructose and high-fructose corn syrup.”.
" The NHS guidelines recommend that free sugars not make up more than 5% of calories from food or exceed 30 g per day." (Well below RDA?)

 

[FireDragon76]

Apo(B) is a protein attached to some LDL particles that are much more likely to contribute to cardiovascular disease. Therefore, it's a more accurate test than just looking at total cholesterol or LDL, though in the majority of people, total cholesterol is an adequate marker for CVD risk, but it isn't as good a marker as Apo(B).

If your total cholesterol is below 150, and your LDL is below 80, the arteries stop developing new plaque, and over time, the total amount of arterial plaque should decrease. Populations that have been studied that have cholesterol levels that low, very rarely develop cardiovascular disease.

 

[timewerx]

I was able to get my mom onboard my fitness routine - Intermittent fasting 16:8, and exercising in fasted state.

In just one week, she lost at least 5 lbs. It could have been water but her blood pressure also dropped by 10 pts on both systolic and diastolic. She stopped taking hypertension meds for now because her BP is now within normal range.

Her diet has greater portion of vegetables than what I eat and no sweets/refined sugar. High carbs but low glycemic.

Her exercise is light cardio (alternate walking and light run, while swinging dumbbells) 45 mins to 1 hr 6 days/week with stairwell laps at the last few minutes. The cardio workout is light enough that she barely sweats in 80F ambient temps with some light wind.

 

[Laodicean60]

developing new plaque,

As I was researching I some articles say exercise js great for reducing plaque.

 

[Laodicean60]

She stopped taking hypertension meds

Might be dangerous you probably need to have a doctor guide her through the process. My wife is doing the same but I want to watch it for several months.

 

[trophy33]

Just a note - associations are not causality. For example, whenever I switch on news and see some fire reports, I also see firemen there. However, that does not mean the firemen cause the fires.

In the same way, when somebody is unhealthy, we also see some markers in blood. But it does not mean those markers cause their health problems.

The relationship between cholesterol and CVD is still not well understood (or, better said, the proposed causative mechanism has never been found, even after decades of research).

What is well understood in the causative way is high blood pressure, smoking, alcohol, stress, bad sleep, bad diet, high blood glucose and fasting insulin.

 

[Laodicean60]

Just a note - associations are not causality. For example, whenever I switch on news and see some fire reports, I also see firemen there. However, that does not mean the firemen cause the fires.

In the same way, when somebody is unhealthy, we also see some markers in blood. But it does not mean those markers cause their health problems.

The relationship between cholesterol and CVD is still not well understood (or, better said, the proposed causative mechanism has never been found, even after decades of research).

What is well understood in the causative way is high blood pressure, smoking, alcohol, stress, bad sleep, bad diet, high blood glucose and fasting insulin.

Did you glance over any of the scientific journals on apoB?

 

[trophy33]

Did you glance over any of the scientific journals on apoB?

Because I am not trained in reading scientific journals, I am afraid that glancing over would produce just some kind of wrong conclusions, in interpreting the data.

 

[Laodicean60]

Because I am not trained in reading scientific journals, I am afraid that glancing over would produce just some kind of wrong conclusions, in interpreting the data.

I am no scientist but I can read the English language. You might surprise yourself if you click on one of the links. Then all your comments are from what you feel? No wonder these threads go on forever it's all about feelings.

 

[trophy33]

I am no scientist but I can read the English language. You might surprise yourself if you click on one of the links. Then all your comments are from what you feel? No wonder these threads go on forever it's all about feelings.

You mean your links? Yes, I clicked on the website claiming causality - Pritkin wellness or something.

My comments are not from what I feel, but from what I learned from various nutritionists and medical doctors. And from my own change in life.

 

[Laodicean60]

You mean your links?

If you have an alternate journal that contradicts apoB causality I would be glad to read it because I don't want to misguide anyone on this forum or myself.

 

[trophy33]

If you have an alternate journal that contradicts apoB causality I would be glad to read it because I don't want to misguide anyone on this forum or myself.

The apoB causality is not proven. The role of cholesterol or lipoprotein carriers in CVD is still unclear. We have associations and apoB may play some causative role in the chain of bad events, but those are all just hypothesis.

 

[timewerx]

Might be dangerous you probably need to have a doctor guide her through the process. My wife is doing the same but I want to watch it for several months.

My mom's doctor did told us to get her off the medication if her BP goes under 130/80. And only resume if her BP goes above that. She told us it's safe to do that. I check her BP twice a day

It also depends on the meds you're talking. "Carvedilol" or "Carvid" for example is potentially dangerous to stop medication abruptly. Getting off Carvid requires progressively tapering medication for several days or even more.

Her doctor actually forgot to tell us about tapering Carvid when getting off although it was initially part of her meds. So it's very important to do some research on the meds you're using. Don't assume doctors are telling everything or incapable of making mistakes. They're still human prone to mistakes after all.

Fortunately, her doctor got her off Carvid permanently. She's taking another BP med that is much safer but now, she's off it too as per doctor instruction if her BP goes under 130/80.

 

[trophy33]

Apolipoprotein B but not LDL Cholesterol Is Associated With Coronary Artery Calcification in Type 2 Diabetic Whites

OBJECTIVE. Evidence favors apolipoprotein B (apoB) over LDL cholesterol as a predictor of cardiovascular events, but data are lacking on coronary artery ca

diabetesjournals.org

 

[Laodicean60]

Apolipoprotein B but not LDL Cholesterol Is Associated With Coronary Artery Calcification in Type 2 Diabetic Whites

OBJECTIVE. Evidence favors apolipoprotein B (apoB) over LDL cholesterol as a predictor of cardiovascular events, but data are lacking on coronary artery ca

diabetesjournals.org

Then what is this about?

The apoB causality is not proven. The role of cholesterol or lipoprotein carriers in CVD is still unclear. We have associations and apoB may play some causative role in the chain of bad events, but those are all just hypothesis.

 

[trophy33]

Then what is this about?

Association is not causality. Thats my point. Some studies or articles are choosing incorrect wording, some are doing better.

 

[Laodicean60]

Association is not causality. Thats my point. Some studies or articles are choosing incorrect wording, some are doing better.

apolipoprotein b (apoB) has lipoprotein particles that are harmful to our arteries and has been found to cause cardiovascular disease..

"The apoB-containing lipoprotein particles that are the most damaging to our arteries"
"In summary, the number of LDL particles (i.e. apoB level) has been shown to be more strongly causally related to ASCVD than the cholesterol content (i.e. LDL-C level)."

So is apoB bad for human health?

 

[trophy33]

"In summary, the number of LDL particles (i.e. apoB level) has been shown to be more strongly causally related to ASCVD than the cholesterol content (i.e. LDL-C level)."

How has it been shown they are causally related to ASCVD? And here we are going to hit the wall of the scientific language and the complexities of (manytimes poor quality) studies neither you nor me understand properly. Understanding English is suddenly not enough.

So is apoB bad for human health?

Not by themselves, they are created by our own body for some specific purpose.

 

[timewerx]

You mean your links? Yes, I clicked on the website claiming causality - Pritkin wellness or something.

My comments are not from what I feel, but from what I learned from various nutritionists and medical doctors. And from my own change in life.

The funny thing is that most nutritionists and most MD's including the mainstream medical websites like Mayo Clinic doesn't agree with your exceptionally expensive dietary preference.

The things you keep saying, you yourself don't follow. You supplement your "carnivore diet" with berries which contains sugar, carbs, and fiber because the true carnivore diet is giving your problems.

Even most experts say that a carnivore diet is unrealistic simply due to the fact most people around the world can't afford the diet due to high cost.

Even if most experts are lying and there's a conspiracy at hand against the carnivore diet, most people really have no choice because the "perfect" carnivore diet is unaffordable to most people. The rest of us just have to adapt won't we? Find alternatives, fill the gaps with exercise for example. At least exercise is free. I'll run barefoot on the streets if I have to.

 

[FireDragon76]

Apolipoprotein B but not LDL Cholesterol Is Associated With Coronary Artery Calcification in Type 2 Diabetic Whites

OBJECTIVE. Evidence favors apolipoprotein B (apoB) over LDL cholesterol as a predictor of cardiovascular events, but data are lacking on coronary artery ca

diabetesjournals.org

Coronary artery calcium scores aren't necessarily indicative of cardiovascular disease risk. Calcified plaques are sometimes more stable than those that aren't calcified.