A ketogenic diet with exercise improve mitochondria and metabolic health

[trophy33]

My S.O. tried a ketogenic diet for epilepsy (it didn't work). It was an actual medical keto diet, with tracking of macronutrients and keeping carbohydrates very low. It resulted in loss in muscle mass. Her cholesterol also became quite high. Protein consumption was lower, in keeping with a medical ketogenic diet. If you eat alot of protein on a ketogenic diet, you aren't doing a real keto diet, you are just doing a low carb diet. Excess protein gets converted into glucose and it will lower ketone production.

Since we transitioned to a vegan diet with alot of whole, minimally processed foods, her epilepsy has actually gotten much better, and her cholesterol is alot lower. She eats more nuts than I do, mostly because she has the opposite problem to me- keeping on weight. Also, nuts have healthier fats that may help lower cholesterol, and she is a carrier of one APOE4 polymorphism, which predisposes her to high cholesterol.

Why do you focus on lowering cholesterol? Its not like lowering insulin, blood sugar or blood pressure, its not good to have a low cholesterol, because cholesterol is needed by every cell and for many bodily functions.

Having low cholesterol is also associated with higher mortality. According to hazard ratio curve, having a higher cholesterol is safer than having it a bit low.

 

[FireDragon76]

Why do you focus on lowering cholesterol? Its not like lowering insulin, blood sugar or blood pressure, its not good to have a low cholesterol, because cholesterol is needed by every cell and for many bodily functions.

The amount of cholesterol needed by the body is exceeding low. Newborn babies have very low cholesterol.

Having low cholesterol is also associated with higher mortality.

Certain terminal illnesses can cause low cholesterol, but in general, the higher your cholesterol, the more likely you are to die from cardiovascular disease.

 

[trophy33]

The amount of cholesterol needed by the body is exceeding low. Newborn babies have very low cholesterol.

We are not newborn babies.

Certain terminal illnesses can cause low cholesterol, but in general, the higher your cholesterol, the more likely you are to die from cardiovascular disease.

Not according to statistics (I am a bit reluctant to call it science). There seems to be a moderate "sweet spot". Lower than that is strongly correlated with mortality, higher than that slightly correlated, at least for Koreans:

Total cholesterol and all-cause mortality by sex and age: a prospective cohort study among 12.8 million adults - Scientific Reports

It is unclear whether associations between total cholesterol (TC) levels and all-cause mortality and the optimal TC ranges for lowest mortality vary by sex and age. 12,815,006 Korean adults underwent routine health examinations during 2001–2004, and were followed until 2013. During follow-up...

www.nature.com

 

[timewerx]

My S.O. tried a ketogenic diet for epilepsy (it didn't work). It was an actual medical keto diet, with tracking of macronutrients and keeping carbohydrates very low. It resulted in loss in muscle mass. Her cholesterol also became quite high. Protein consumption was lower, in keeping with a medical ketogenic diet. If you eat alot of protein on a ketogenic diet, you aren't doing a real keto diet, you are just doing a low carb diet. Excess protein gets converted into glucose and it will lower ketone production.

Since we transitioned to a vegan diet with alot of whole, minimally processed foods, her epilepsy has actually gotten much better, and her cholesterol is alot lower. She eats more nuts than I do, mostly because she has the opposite problem to me- keeping on weight. Also, nuts have healthier fats that may help lower cholesterol, and she is a carrier of one APOE4 polymorphism, which predisposes her to high cholesterol.

That's interesting to know excess protein only gets converted to carbs.

I might have read something like it. High protein % in diet and low everything else may encourage muscle mass loss if the body has become so used at using protein for energy, may ignore other sources of energy like carbs and fat and go straight for muscle mass if running low on energy.

Does your S.O. have diabetes or at risk? Difficulty keeping on weight is one symptom of diabetes or early stages. Although some manifestations is being overweight or obese, at the extreme end of the scale is difficulty gaining weight because of inability of the body to convert glucose into glycogen or fat due to insulin issues. Excess blood sugar is excreted instead via urine.

 

[FireDragon76]

We are not newborn babies.

Not according to statistics (I am a bit reluctant to call it science). There seems to be a moderate "sweet spot". Lower than that is strongly correlated with mortality, higher than that slightly correlated, at least for Koreans:

Total cholesterol and all-cause mortality by sex and age: a prospective cohort study among 12.8 million adults - Scientific Reports

It is unclear whether associations between total cholesterol (TC) levels and all-cause mortality and the optimal TC ranges for lowest mortality vary by sex and age. 12,815,006 Korean adults underwent routine health examinations during 2001–2004, and were followed until 2013. During follow-up...

www.nature.com

Are you aware that people that have had heart attacks typically experience a significant drop in cholesterol?

It isn't true that higher cholesterol is safer than lower cholesterol. That isn't supported by serious analysis of the evidence.

 

[FireDragon76]

Does your S.O. have diabetes or at risk?

No. The single APOE4 polymorphism places her at somewhat elevated risk of cardiovascular disease and Alzheimer's, but her diabetes risk is normal.

Difficulty keeping on weight is one symptom of diabetes or early stages. Although some manifestations is being overweight or obese, at the extreme end of the scale is difficulty gaining weight because of inability of the body to convert glucose into glycogen or fat due to insulin issues. Excess blood sugar is excreted instead via urine.

The APOE4 polymorphism can cause problems in cholesterol metabolism. Usually, people with the genes are advised to minimize consumption of saturated fat and refined carbohydrates, and focus on unsaturated fats found in nuts or fruits (avocados and olives). Soluble fiber supplements or regularly eating foods like oatmel is also recommended, to help lower cholesterol further. Often, statin drugs are needed if dietary changes aren't enough.

When we initially tried the keto diet, we didn't know she has the polymorphism, we only found out through doing 23andMe gene sequencing.

There's a well-known fitness influencer, Dr. Peter Attia, that also has the APOE4 polymorphism. It's uncommon but not too rare. Dr. Attia takes two statin drugs to deal with his condition, but he doesn't follow any special diet, except he avoids junk food.

 

[trophy33]

Are you aware that people that have had heart attacks typically experience a significant drop in cholesterol?

Not sure what is the connection you are trying to make here.

It isn't true that higher cholesterol is safer than lower cholesterol. That isn't supported by serious analysis of the evidence.

Thats the state of today's nutrition and biochemistry. There is so much conflicting data and so many experts disagree about so many things that everybody must experiment for themselves what is "the serious science" and what makes sense regarding our natural, ancestral diet.

Sadly, there have also been many decades of lazy scientists, badly design studies and crappy research. And a lot of speculation, ideology and corruption in health and nutrition. But with some significant effort and invested time, one can find few real experts and few well done studies on these topics.

 

[FireDragon76]

Not sure what is the connection you are trying to make here.

People that have heart attacks having lowered cholesterol is a potential confounder in any study looking to see if people with lower cholesterol have higher mortality. Once conditions like heart attack or serious illness are accounted for, there is actually an inverse relationship between lower cholesterol and cardiovascular deaths.

Thats the state of today's nutrition and biochemistry. There is so much conflicting data and so many experts disagree about so many things that everybody must experiment for themselves what is "the serious science" and what makes sense regarding our natural, ancestral diet.

There's really not that much disagreement among actual people with expertise. There's alot of misinformation, though.

 

[trophy33]

People that have heart attacks having lowered cholesterol is a potential confounder in any study looking to see if people with lower cholesterol have higher mortality. Once conditions like heart attack or serious illness are accounted for, there is actually an inverse relationship between lower cholesterol and cardiovascular deaths.

I am still not sure what is your point. People with heart attack have a low cholesterol, therefore a high cholesterol is dangerous and we should target for the low one?

There's really not that much disagreement among actual people with expertise. There's alot of misinformation, though.

Those "actual people with expertise" do not say much, though. Like "do not eat highly processed food, keep your sugar intake low, exercise, sleep well, do not drink alcohol, do not smoke" etc. Because nothing more is scientifically proven.

Its when we want more details, then the mess begins. However, the clinical practice is decades in front of research, so thats one area we can get some more information. And realizing what we are designed to eat, what is our natural state.

Answers are quite simple, but its hard to get to them, with so much lobbying, profit-focus, scientific laziness, dilettantism and ideology:

According to a survey published in the journal Nature last summer, more than 70% of researchers have tried and failed to reproduce another scientist's experiments.

Most scientists 'can't replicate studies by their peers'

Science is facing a "reproducibility crisis" as scientists fail to reproduce others' work, it is claimed.

www.bbc.com

 

[FireDragon76]

Both you and Myst are correct! Quoted is what I abide by and keto was a great tool to achieve my weight loss and reduce my insulin resistance. You shouldn't remain on a keto diet forever then your body becomes metabolically inflexible to carbs. The key is to allow your body to know how to switch from one fuel to the other.

Weight loss in general tends to improve metabolic flexibility.

Also, physical activity, especially more intense physical activity, tends to benefit the health of the mitochondria. Making it difficult to say whether or not its specifically a ketogenic diet that is responsible for the benefit to mitochondria.

 

[timewerx]

Answers are quite simple, but its hard to get to them, with so much lobbying, profit-focus, scientific laziness, dilettantism and ideology:

According to a survey published in the journal Nature last summer, more than 70% of researchers have tried and failed to reproduce another scientist's experiments.

I often read something like it in probably most research journals.

The only way I can get reliable answer is experimenting on myself. Keto diet is one thing I never tried because it's way too expensive for me. Vegetables are cheap where I live. I eat small quantities of meat just to get all the essential amino acids I'm not getting from vegetables.

I'd hate to think that God has no option for people like me but thankfully, there are options to stay healthy with little money.

 

[Laodicean60]

The only way I can get reliable answer is experimenting on myself.

AMEN! Thats what I did 2 years ago for COVID and I'm glad I did it, my numbers prove it.

 

[timewerx]

Weight loss in general tends to improve metabolic flexibility.

Also, physical activity, especially more intense physical activity, tends to benefit the health of the mitochondria. Making it difficult to say whether or not its specifically a ketogenic diet that is responsible for the benefit to mitochondria.

Although I never tried keto diet (KD), I'm under strong ketosis over 12 hrs a day through intermittent fasting (IF).

I'm already getting lots of exercise and got my BMI down to athletic level before adopting IF.

But IF brought me to the next level of exercise performance. Stamina improved considerably. All my symptom of prediabetes vanished as well.

So I'm gonna have to say that both exercise and adapting to ketosis benefit mitochondria. Mitochondria directly affects exercise performance particularly endurance.

Strong ketosis will cause dramatic change to your body odor and you'll smell it!

 

[Laodicean60]

Although I never tried keto diet (KD), I'm under strong ketosis over 12 hrs a day

Do you have a meter?

 

[timewerx]

Do you have a meter?

I didn't have to. I get strong body odor from ketosis. It differs individually. Mine is the smell of potpourri or that of assorted desert flowers.

Keto body odor differs between Intermittent Fasting (which I do) and Keto Diet. Because the food you eat will also affect the odor. Because of flexibility of Intermittent Fasting, I can avoid foods that can result to bad keto odor. Fortunately, the worst I've smelled is smelling like motor oil or even gasoline.

 

[trophy33]

I often read something like it in probably most research journals.

The only way I can get reliable answer is experimenting on myself.

Todays nutrition science is in such a crisis that, sadly, individuals must experiment on themselves to find what works.

Keto diet is one thing I never tried because it's way too expensive for me. Vegetables are cheap where I live. I eat small quantities of meat just to get all the essential amino acids I'm not getting from vegetables.

I'd hate to think that God has no option for people like me but thankfully, there are options to stay healthy with little money.

Well, its not black and white. I see it more as a spectrum. You can eat the worst possible diet or the best possible diet, but between them, there is plenty of relatively better or worse diets. If your diet is a silver or a bronze one, its still better than what the majority eats.

 

[timewerx]

Todays nutrition science is in such a crisis that, sadly, individuals must experiment on themselves to find what works.


Well, its not black and white. I see it more as a spectrum. You can eat the worst possible diet or the best possible diet, but between them, there is plenty of relatively better or worse diets. If your diet is a silver or a bronze one, its still better than what the majority eats.

This is why I keep telling I don't trust diet camps anymore even those journals. Youtube vids are the worst alongside with sports nutrition.

The only things experts never argue about are exercise, fasting, and junk/processed foods.

Those are the only info I regard as reliable and pay attention to. The rest is just waste of time.

 

[trophy33]

The rest is just waste of time.

I dont think so, because after some time and running in circles for a while, you will understand more about what is science, what are facts, what is ideology, what is propaganda, what is really proven and what is just opinion, who pays for what, how metabolism works, how media work (selling misleading clickbait), that even recognized associations are spreading a lot of opinions instead of facts, are frequently sponsored by companies, that scientists are willfully lying for money etc.

So, in time, you can recognize and filter out nonsense (both in studies, official recommendations or on youtube) and follow those who were proven to be factual. Sure, you want to also try it on yourself to verify the results. I have tried vegan, vegetarian, "standard junk diet", "something like recommended healthy balanced diet", keto and carnivore. Also, various superfoods and supplements.

I have found my sweet spot somewhere between keto and carnivore (mostly meat + fermented dairy + few nuts and berries, sometimes a fruit low in sugars like cucumber). This also seems to make the most sense regarding our biochemistry, history, ethics and environment.

The most significant improvements in health and overall being happened when I stopped eating pastry, sweets, grains and everything in which is added sugar, vegetable oils or too much of "natural" sugars (like tropical fruit). The rest was rather about tweaking, but these ones were really noticeable.

 

[timewerx]

I dont think so, because after some time and running in circles for a while, you will understand more about what is science, what are facts, what is ideology, what is propaganda, what is really proven and what is just opinion, who pays for what, how metabolism works, how media work (selling misleading clickbait), that even recognized associations are spreading a lot of opinions instead of facts, are frequently sponsored by companies, that scientists are willfully lying for money etc.

Most people never want to learn how to discern so why bother teaching them?

If someone or a company can offer an easy way out, (often through deception), people will buy it. That's just the way this world works.

 

[trophy33]

Most people never want to learn how to discern so why bother teaching them?

Its useful for that minority that is willing to learn, I guess.