Anyone up for a chat thread?

[Philip_B]

I did mean to add that the Hundred Years' War Against Palestine is a well-written case and in stark contrast to Noa Tishby's book Israel which argues the opposing view well. If your view is that neither the UK nor the USA has ever made a misstep but has only been there to help, then you will find the later book helpful, on the other hand, if you suspect that both the UK and the US may have acted to further their own interests, then you may find the Hundred Years War more Helpful.

The lesson of history here is that ignoring the problem does not make it go away. This lesson may also have some bearing on matters in Australian Political Life as well.

 

[Paidiske]

The lesson of history here is that ignoring the problem does not make it go away. This lesson may also have some bearing on matters in Australian Political Life as well.

And, indeed, in parish life!

 

[The Liturgist]

I just came across this rather lovely quote from Archbishop Cranmer in the Preface to the Great Bible:

Here may all manner of persons, men, women, young, old, learned, unlearned, rich, poor, priests, laymen, lords, ladies, officers, tenants, and mean men, virgins, wives, widows, lawyers, merchants, artificers, husbandmen, and all manner of persons of what estate or condition soever they be, may in this book learn all things what they ought to believe, what they ought to do, and what they should not do, as well concerning almighty God, as also concerning themselves and all other.

 

[Paidiske]

I am pondering how to deal with a family who want a baptim in my parish, but want a man to do it for them. On the one hand, I can find a retired priest to do the actual baptism. On the other hand, parish policy is that baptisms take place as part of regular services, and I am not prepared to be pushed out of a regular service entirely because a family who've never been here before want the ministry and sacraments of this church, on their terms!

I am wondering if having a service where the retired man preaches and baptises but I preside is a reasonable compromise. Probably all I'll succeed in doing is annoying everyone to some degree. But how far should we be expected to step back from our commitment to the ordination of women due to an outside request?

No easy answers...

 

[The Liturgist]

I am pondering how to deal with a family who want a baptim in my parish, but want a man to do it for them. On the one hand, I can find a retired priest to do the actual baptism. On the other hand, parish policy is that baptisms take place as part of regular services, and I am not prepared to be pushed out of a regular service entirely because a family who've never been here before want the ministry and sacraments of this church, on their terms!

I am wondering if having a service where the retired man preaches and baptises but I preside is a reasonable compromise. Probably all I'll succeed in doing is annoying everyone to some degree. But how far should we be expected to step back from our commitment to the ordination of women due to an outside request?

No easy answers...

Given the current and unfortunate lack of youth in your parish, perhaps you could gaige your decision on whether or not they were willing to commit to their children regularly attending your parish and being confirmed there? Which in turn could encourage other families to do likewise.

I know many priests who won’t do a baptism at all if the family doesn’t intend to raise the child in that parish, or in another if in the course of the youth of the child, events should dictate their relocation (which is undesirable - it is best that children spend at least the centrality of their childhood in one place, which I was blessed to do, but it is also in many cases unavoidable).

 

[Paidiske]

Given the current and unfortunate lack of youth in your parish, perhaps you could gaige your decision on whether or not they were willing to commit to their children regularly attending your parish and being confirmed there?

If they object to me doing the baptism, I can't imagine they'll be willing to attend here regularly.

 

[RileyG]

I just came across this rather lovely quote from Archbishop Cranmer in the Preface to the Great Bible:

Here may all manner of persons, men, women, young, old, learned, unlearned, rich, poor, priests, laymen, lords, ladies, officers, tenants, and mean men, virgins, wives, widows, lawyers, merchants, artificers, husbandmen, and all manner of persons of what estate or condition soever they be, may in this book learn all things what they ought to believe, what they ought to do, and what they should not do, as well concerning almighty God, as also concerning themselves and all other.

Beautiful

 

[RileyG]

I am pondering how to deal with a family who want a baptim in my parish, but want a man to do it for them. On the one hand, I can find a retired priest to do the actual baptism. On the other hand, parish policy is that baptisms take place as part of regular services, and I am not prepared to be pushed out of a regular service entirely because a family who've never been here before want the ministry and sacraments of this church, on their terms!

I am wondering if having a service where the retired man preaches and baptises but I preside is a reasonable compromise. Probably all I'll succeed in doing is annoying everyone to some degree. But how far should we be expected to step back from our commitment to the ordination of women due to an outside request?

No easy answers...

Why don’t they want you to baptize their child? Is it because you’re a woman? If so, they have a very poor understanding of the sacraments, especially baptism.

How odd

 

[Paidiske]

Why don’t they want you to baptize their child? Is it because you’re a woman?

Yup. "It is our preference that the baptism be carried out by a male priest."

If so, they have a very poor understanding of the sacraments, especially baptism.

Yup. But I still have to work out where the line is between being graciously welcoming and hospitable, and telling them that if they want the ministry and sacraments of this church, then they need to accept the ministers ordained and authorised to offer that ministry!

 

[RileyG]

Yup. "It is our preference that the baptism be carried out by a male priest."

Yup. But I still have to work out where the line is between being graciously welcoming and hospitable, and telling them that if they want the ministry and sacraments of this church, then they need to accept the ministers ordained and authorised to offer that ministry!

I’m sorry to hear that. I hope everything works out ok.

Take care.

 

[seeking.IAM]

I am pondering how to deal with a family who want a baptim in my parish, but want a man to do it for them.

I wonder what counsel your Bishop might offer in such a matter? As for me, I might be inclined to tell them, "Sorry. We don't have a male priest in this parish. I can refer you to a parish with a male priest, or I can do it if you change your mind."

 

[Paidiske]

I wonder what counsel your Bishop might offer in such a matter? As for me, I might be inclined to tell them, "Sorry. We don't have a male priest in this parish. I can refer you to a parish with a male priest, or I can do it if you change your mind."

I wonder too, and in fact I think I'll ask him when I get the chance. I suspect he'd be pretty unhappy at what he would see as blatant misogyny.

 

[The Liturgist]

If they object to me doing the baptism, I can't imagine they'll be willing to attend here regularly.

That’s a good point. It also offers you a reasonable basis to send them elsewhere.

Out of curiosity do you know why they want baptism in your parish? Is it a family connection?

 

[Paidiske]

Out of curiosity do you know why they want baptism in your parish? Is it a family connection?

I don't know. His business is within the parish bounds, so perhaps it's just geography. He's been pretty curt with me so far, so I think I'll have to leave it to the retired priest to see what he can find out.

 

[The Liturgist]

I wonder too, and in fact I think I'll ask him when I get the chance. I suspect he'd be pretty unhappy at what he would see as blatant misogyny.

Well, at least its not as bad as the mean spirited people on CF.com who deny your ordained status altogether, and who in some cases believe women were always required to be totally silent and passive in the Church, based on a gross misreading of St. Paul, which as we both know is complete nonsense.

For my part, I have complete confidence that you, as a compassionate and loving priest, will act in the best interests of the child and the family with a view to demonstrating Christian love and kindness.

 

[The Liturgist]

I don't know. His business is within the parish bounds, so perhaps it's just geography. He's been pretty curt with me so far, so I think I'll have to leave it to the retired priest to see what he can find out.

Oh that’s too bad. He has no business being anything less than respectful to anyone, and that he would be unpleasant to a sister in Christ and a clergyman demonstrates poor character.

What about the baptismal sponsors? They might make a difference as well.

My own view is that there are benefits to baptizing infants even if the parents are unlikely to take them to church as frequently as would be expected, and I think such a view is fairly common in Anglicanism, correct me if I’m wrong. It is certainly the case in the Church of England that many people are baptized for what their parents unfortunately regard as cultural reasons.

One would hope, however, that if the parents are interested enough to have an opinion, even if the opinion is disagreeable and mean-spirited, concerning who should do the baptism, that they would commit to regular attendance.

But if it is the case that their opinion is not based on theology, then all I can say is I feel sorry for the wife in that relationship.

 

[Paidiske]

What about the baptismal sponsors? They might make a difference as well.

They might, if the conversation ever gets that far.

One would hope, however, that if the parents are interested enough to have an opinion, even if the opinion is disagreeable and mean-spirited, concerning who should do the baptism, that they would commit to regular attendance.

Which brings me back around to, then why come here in the first place? If they care that much, why not go to the parish down the road where the rector is a man? I just find it odd.

But if it is the case that their opinion is not based on theology, then all I can say is I feel sorry for the wife in that relationship.

Quite.

 

[The Liturgist]

Which brings me back around to, then why come here in the first place? If they care that much, why not go to the parish down the road where the rector is a man? I just find it odd.

Very odd.

 

[Arcangl86]

They might, if the conversation ever gets that far.

Which brings me back around to, then why come here in the first place? If they care that much, why not go to the parish down the road where the rector is a man? I just find it odd.

Is it maybe a family parish?

 

[Paidiske]

Is it maybe a family parish?

Maybe, if this is the first family rite of passage in a good while.