Anyone up for a chat thread?

[RileyG]

Lent is on the horizon already... sigh.

Time is passing too rapidly!

 

[public hermit]

Lent is on the horizon already... sigh.

I so love Lent. I benefit so much from my Lenten practices. For me, it's the most wonderful time of the year. Sorry about that, Christmas.

 

[Paidiske]

I think I find Lent quite frustrating. Not so much personally, but in ministry. It's very difficult to build a sense of this as a journey we share together with each other and God.

 

[Shane R]

It's very difficult to build a sense of this as a journey we share together with each other and God.

That line of insight inspired a paragraph in my homily last Sunday.

 

[FireDragon76]

I so love Lent. I benefit so much from my Lenten practices. For me, it's the most wonderful time of the year. Sorry about that, Christmas.

I don't know I would say it's wondeful but the Orthodox do have a term that I think fits it well, "bright sadness".

 

[PloverWing]

I like Lent as a time of focused spiritual discipline -- though I agree that the disciplines I undertake are always individual, never communal. I wonder if there's a way to bring the whole church into it: for Lent 2024, our whole parish is going to give up X, or is going to do Y together, thus having a sense that we're doing this together and not just on our own.

Lent definitely has some of the best music.

I realized about a week ago that what I need to give up for Lent this year is Christian Forums. I have some really wonderful conversations here, but many other threads on CF "draw me from the love of God" (to quote the baptismal covenant). So, I need to step away for a few weeks, to remember why I love God.

 

[Paidiske]

I like Lent as a time of focused spiritual discipline -- though I agree that the disciplines I undertake are always individual, never communal. I wonder if there's a way to bring the whole church into it: for Lent 2024, our whole parish is going to give up X, or is going to do Y together, thus having a sense that we're doing this together and not just on our own.

In reading the threads in the Orthodox forum here, where their fasting disciplines are prescribed and therefore shared, I get a sense of the fasts as being something that they do together, and encourage one another through. And I think in making everything optional and personally chosen, we've lost something there, even if I wouldn't want the baggage of how the Orthodox manage all of that.

Unfortunately, what I really ought to give up for Lent, in order to draw closer to God, is overwork; but if I had the answer to how to manage that, I wouldn't be so overworked in the first place...

 

[seeking.IAM]

Unfortunately, what I really ought to give up for Lent, in order to draw closer to God, is overwork

I know it is a lot of work and must get to feel like a grind sometimes, but I just want you to know we appreciate all the effort clergy, church staff, and choristers do during Lent for the benefit of those of us in the pew.

I am very cognizant of that this year after moving to a new city where a church with three full time priests won't do the Great Vigil of Easter because it is too much work during Holy Week. Instead, I'll drive a bit further to catch the Vigil at another church where the sole priest knocks herself out to manage the entirety of Holy Week services by herself. Respect for that.

 

[Paidiske]

Three full time priests and they won't do a vigil! And I wondered if I was being slack when I refused to run two triduums across the four centres in the parish...

It's not Lent that's killing me, it's a couple of other things; the local Anglican school has no chaplain and they call on me to fill some of that gap, and that's a lot (especially when I've never been a teacher or worked in schools, so my learning curve is steep). And we run a food bank that takes up an incredible amount of my time in dealing with the clients and volunteers. I have hopes of eventually being able to delegate a lot of that, but finding the right (willing) person has proven to be a challenge thus far...

 

[Shane R]

My folks are in somewhat of a touristy area of Southern Ohio. They wanted Easter sunrise so I told them I needed to be lodged in town for that (the church is about 40 miles from my house and the roads to there are not so good). They said, sure pastor, and you know what, we feel like you need a day of vacation. We're going to book you 2 nights at the hotel and you can spend Saturday enjoying our nice touristy town. So I am very thankful for that.

 

[Paidiske]

Oh, that's nice. Good on them.

 

[The Liturgist]

It's so rare to see people kneeling today anyway. I make a point of kneeling when I'm leading services because I don't want that to be lost as a "normal" posture for prayer, but I don't think anyone in my congregation does.

Have you thought about adopting Kneeling Vespers for Whitsunday?

 

[Paidiske]

Have you thought about adopting Kneeling Vespers for Whitsunday?

I haven't, but my congregation are not keen on evening services.

 

[The Liturgist]

I haven't, but my congregation are not keen on evening services.

Despite the name, Kneeling Vespers is not done in the evening, and in the West Syriac rite, it is not even considered (or called) a vespers. Rather, the service is a very enjoyable service which occurs immediately after the Divine Liturgy on Whitsunday, which marks the return of prostration, which is not done during Eastertide (or traditionally on Sundays according to Canon XX of Nicea, but almost every church ignores that canon, however, the service being called Kneeling Vespers is a response to that, since Vespers, regardless of when it actually happens, canonically represents the start of the next liturgical day (which is why in Eastern Orthodox, Greek Catholic and Ukrainian Lutheran churches the black paraments and vestments from Good Friday are replaced with white paraments and vestments at the Vesperal Divine Liturgy on Saturday morning). However this is a bit of liturgical obscura.

Returning to the Kneeling service, this service is usually a bit dreary and penitential, except in the West Syriac Rite, and perhaps the East Syriac RIte (I haven’t been, so I don’t know, but there is a shared cultural heritage). Specifically, the priest will soak large leaves before the service, I am not sure what the plant is, and then after each set of the prayers, the priest will splash the laity with Holy Water, and in some cases members who are particularly well acquainted with the priest get splashed more than others.

Then, after the service, because of the warmth in the Middle East at that time of year, the congregation will splash each other with bottles of water in a recreational activity which is quite a lot of fun to engage in.

Due to the differences in temperature, in Australia perhaps it might be better to do such a service on Epiphany Sunday, which marks the end of Christmastide, which is another period that was historically devoid of prostration and fasting, or on another occasion of relative warmth, perhaps on Quinquagesima (correct me if I’m wrong, but I vaguely recall you mentioning that you celebrate Transfiguration either on that date or on the last Sunday before Septuagesima, like some Lutheran churches, rather than on August 6th; I might be thinking of a different Anglican).

The solemn kneeling prayers are integral to the service, but they are relieved by the enjoyable splashing with Holy Water and then the free for all after the service. I suppose if it was not done on Palm Sunday, different prayers would be needed, and the lack of any significant number of children in your parishes might also dampen the fun, although such a service, by virtue of its nature, particularly if enhancements with water balloons or Super Soakers was made, and the service were set for an appropriately warm day, could provide an impetus for parishioners with children or grandchildren to bring them, for that specific service, because if you could get them to come two or three times a year, perhaps for Christmas, Easter, and this service, it would be an enhancement. While most churches in the US do have children who attend regularly, it is also the case that more are present on Christmas Eve and Easter Sunday.

As an aside, I would be really interested to see how many youths regularly attend all of the Anglican churches in Australia, perhaps on a per-Archdiocese basis, vs. the Uniting Church parishes, the Roman Catholic parishes and the parishes of other denominations, such as the Pentecostals and the various Eastern churches, if such data exists.

 

[Paidiske]

Despite the name, Kneeling Vespers is not done in the evening, and in the West Syriac rite, it is not even considered (or called) a vespers. Rather, the service is a very enjoyable service which occurs immediately after the Divine Liturgy on Whitsunday,

More church straight after church? I can't see my congregation going for that, either!

Due to the differences in temperature, in Australia perhaps it might be better to do such a service on Epiphany Sunday, which marks the end of Christmastide, which is another period that was historically devoid of prostration and fasting, or on another occasion of relative warmth, perhaps on Quinquagesima (correct me if I’m wrong, but I vaguely recall you mentioning that you celebrate Transfiguration either on that date or on the last Sunday before Septuagesima, like some Lutheran churches, rather than on August 6th; I might be thinking of a different Anglican).

Yes, on the last Sunday before Lent. That's one option the lectionary gives us, and the one I tend to prefer, particularly after reading +Rowan Williams' brilliant short sermon for that service, (which you can read here).

I suppose if it was not done on Palm Sunday, different prayers would be needed, and the lack of any significant number of children in your parishes might also dampen the fun, although such a service, by virtue of its nature, particularly if enhancements with water balloons or Super Soakers was made, and the service were set for an appropriately warm day, could provide an impetus for parishioners with children or grandchildren to bring them, for that specific service, because if you could get them to come two or three times a year, perhaps for Christmas, Easter, and this service, it would be an enhancement. While most churches in the US do have children who attend regularly, it is also the case that more are present on Christmas Eve and Easter Sunday.

The service that tends to work this way - in a "bring your grandkids along and have fun" kind of way - is the blessing of pets for St. Francis' day.

As an aside, I would be really interested to see how many youths regularly attend all of the Anglican churches in Australia, perhaps on a per-Archdiocese basis, vs. the Uniting Church parishes, the Roman Catholic parishes and the parishes of other denominations, such as the Pentecostals and the various Eastern churches, if such data exists.

If such information exists, I do not know where or how to find it.

 

[The Liturgist]

More church straight after church? I can't see my congregation going for that, either!

It’s directly integrated into the service in most cases, so it begins literally without skipping a beat. In the case of your congregation, due to their apparent short attention span, if you were to implement a service like this, I would suggest shortening part of the rest of the service. However you wouldn’t have to displace much, considering the highly enjoyable nature of the Kneeling Service makes the time fly by.

 

[Paidiske]

Never underestimate the ability of Anglican church members to be mightily put out by the slightest deviation from "the way we've always done things."

 

[The Liturgist]

Yes, on the last Sunday before Lent. That's one option the lectionary gives us, and the one I tend to prefer, particularly after reading +Rowan Williams' brilliant short sermon for that service, (which you can read here).

I really like Archbishop Rowan Williams. He has a dignified, hieratic style. The way he did the liturgy for the wedding of the current Prince and Princess of Wales back in 2011 was thrilling.

 

[Paidiske]

His time in Canterbury has left a mixed legacy, but every writing of his that I've read has been very, very good.

 

[The Liturgist]

Never underestimate the ability of Anglican church members to be mightily put out by the slightest deviation from "the way we've always done things."

Indeed, I am well aware of that, and it can be a double-edged sword. My own denomination is so adverse to change that even relatively minor changes to the liturgy have caused spectacular schisms, in 1666 with the Nikonian reforms in Russia and in 1920 with the promulgation of the New Calendar. There were also schisms due to the fear of Soviet influence, among other factors. That said, resistance to change can be beneficial, for example, in preserving ancient hymns which might otherwise have been displaced. So this is something Anglicanism and Orthodoxy have in common. On the other hand, it can make restoring disused portions of the liturgy, for example, the Divine Liturgies of St. James, St. Mark and St. Peter, extremely challenging (although the Divine Liturgy of St. James at least is now used occasionally in many parishes, typically on his feast day on October 23rd).

One other thing they have in common is a certain tolerance for minor variations in liturgical practices at different parishes, often related to churchmanship, for example, even in the Archdiocese of Sydney there is a relatively Anglo Catholic parish (albeit their clergy wear copes as the chasuble is banned in that diocese), and in Orthodoxy, monasteries in particular can sometimes have very different liturgical practices, for example, New Skete, which I believe was trying to model what a hypothetical reform of the liturgy might look like, however, it did not catch on outside their monastery, but no one objects to them using their own variation on the liturgy.