Anyone have good arguments against Calvinism.

[AV1611VET]

It is belief in Jesus that gives a person God's free gift of Eternal Life.

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

 

[d taylor]

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

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Yes people who do not believe in Jesus for Eternal Life die and end up in the lake of fire and remain a sinner for all of eternity.

But still Jesus has paid for their sin also. So sin is not the reason they are cast into the lake of fire.
And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

With all that stated, it still does not changed the fact that the only way to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life is by belief in Jesus. Like i stated if you do not believe me read the Gospel of John.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

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Just look at the very next verse and what it states.

How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?

Paul writes how can a person call on Jesus if they have not believed. So in other words the order is

A person (preacher, etc..) explains how to become a believer (by belief in Jesus). The person believes, then the person who is now a believer. Can now call on the name of The lord (for help)

Romans 10: A Concise Commentary – Grace Evangelical Society

Romans 10:14​

“How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?” (Rom 10:14)​

Context in Romans 10​

St Paul is addressing the tragic unbelief of Israel (cf. Rom 10:1–3), contrasting righteousness based on the Law with righteousness through faith in Christ. He affirms that salvation is available to all who call upon the Lord (Rom 10:13, citing Joel 2:32), but then raises a series of rhetorical questions to show the necessity of proclamation for faith to arise.

---

️ Catholic Interpretation​

According to Catholic tradition:

• The Word of God (spoken revelation) is made present through preaching, which is the ordinary means by which the Logos reaches human hearts (cf. Dei Verbum §8).
• The preacher is not merely a messenger but one sent (apostellō)—a reference to apostolic mission and ecclesial authority (Rom 10:15).
• Faith comes by hearing (Rom 10:17), but hearing presupposes a preacher, and a preacher presupposes divine sending.

Who Are the Recipients?​

• The recipients are not yet believers. Paul speaks of those who have not yet believed, not yet heard, and not yet called upon Christ.
• They are potential believers, both Jew and Gentile, who stand in need of evangelisation.
• Their status is one of incomplete reception of the Gospel—not yet condemned, but not yet saved.

As Catholic teaching affirms, those who have not heard the Gospel through no fault of their own may still be saved by grace (Lumen Gentium §16), but the normative path to salvation remains faith in Christ through the Church’s proclamation.

---

Conclusion​

Romans 10:14 is an affirmation of the Church’s missionary mandate. The Word must be preached so that the Graphē may be heard, and the Pneuma may awaken faith.

 

[d taylor]

Romans 10:14​

“How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?” (Rom 10:14)​

Context in Romans 10​

St Paul is addressing the tragic unbelief of Israel (cf. Rom 10:1–3), contrasting righteousness based on the Law with righteousness through faith in Christ. He affirms that salvation is available to all who call upon the Lord (Rom 10:13, citing Joel 2:32), but then raises a series of rhetorical questions to show the necessity of proclamation for faith to arise.

---

️ Catholic Interpretation​

According to Catholic tradition:

• The Word of God (spoken revelation) is made present through preaching, which is the ordinary means by which the Logos reaches human hearts (cf. Dei Verbum §8).
• The preacher is not merely a messenger but one sent (apostellō)—a reference to apostolic mission and ecclesial authority (Rom 10:15).
• Faith comes by hearing (Rom 10:17), but hearing presupposes a preacher, and a preacher presupposes divine sending.

Who Are the Recipients?​

• The recipients are not yet believers. Paul speaks of those who have not yet believed, not yet heard, and not yet called upon Christ.
• They are potential believers, both Jew and Gentile, who stand in need of evangelisation.
• Their status is one of incomplete reception of the Gospel—not yet condemned, but not yet saved.

As Catholic teaching affirms, those who have not heard the Gospel through no fault of their own may still be saved by grace (Lumen Gentium §16), but the normative path to salvation remains faith in Christ through the Church’s proclamation.

---

Conclusion​

Romans 10:14 is an affirmation of the Church’s missionary mandate. The Word must be preached so that the Graphē may be heard, and the Pneuma may awaken faith.

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​

Well i disagree, calling is not the same as believing and Paul writes How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed.

To call on Jesus a person must first have believed in Jesus. The calling on Jesus is for physical help and not reception of God's free gift of Eternal Life. Which is received only by belief, belief in Jesus.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

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Well i disagree, calling is not the same as believing and Paul writes How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed.

To call on Jesus a person must first have believed in Jesus. The calling on Jesus is for physical help and not reception of God's free gift of Eternal Life. Which is received only by belief, belief in Jesus.

I disagree with your statement too. Seems we are at an impasse.

 

[AV1611VET]

But still Jesus has paid for their sin also. So sin is not the reason they are cast into the lake of fire.

Our sin nature needs to be atoned for as well.

You can cut a weed off at ground level, but if the root remains, it'll grow right back.

 

[d taylor]

Our sin nature needs to be atoned for as well.

You can cut a weed off at ground level, but if the root remains, it'll grow right back.

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The sin nature is not going anywhere until a believer dies. You may can suppress it, by growing as a believer, but it still will always be at the door.

Believers, right now fall short of the glory of God. Until you die or are raptured, you will continue to fall short of the glory of God. The most mature saint still falls short of the glory of God.
https://faithalone.org/grace-in-focus-articles/all-have-sinned-and-fall-short-of-the-glory-of-god/

 

[AV1611VET]

The sin nature is not going anywhere until a believer dies.

But, as God told the Hebrews in Egypt:

"When I see the blood, I will pass over you."

Do you know why the Bible depicts our sins as "scarlet" and not "black"?

Write the word SIN in red on a board, then spray paint it with red paint and see what happens.

 

[d taylor]

But, as God told the Hebrews in Egypt:

"When I see the blood, I will pass over you."

Do you know why the Bible depicts our sins as "scarlet" and not "black"?

Write the word SIN in red on a board, then spray paint it with red paint and see what happens.

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I will pass on doing the sin illustration. i am a sinner and will be till i die, but thankfully Jesus came and took away the sin of the world. So the only bridge that needs to be crossed to get back into the family of God, is to believe in Jesus for Eternal Life. If you do not believe me read The Gospel of John.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Taking a step back from that way of thinking and am looking for different ways of looking at it.

Calvinism succeeds or fails on the idea that people have no ability to believe the gospel. All the theology is built around supporting that idea.

• T - Total Depravity - Dead people can't put their trust in Christ,
• U - Unconditional Election - God determines who can believe,
• L - Limited Atonement - Jesus did not die for everyone's sins,
• I - Irresistible Grace - No chosen person can refuse to believe, and
• P - Perseverance of the Saints - A chosen person can never choose to be unchosen

I think TULIP should be "TULIPS"...

• S - Soverignty of God - God controls everything in minute detail

So, in my opinion, the best way to overcome Calvinism is to understand that all the calls of God for people to believe in Christ for the salvation of their souls would be cynical if He had already chosen that most people who He instructed to believe had no ability to believe because He blocked them. Here's an example...

Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. (Mt 11:28)​

What kind of horrible theology adds a caveat to this verse like, "And by the way, I know most of you are unable to believe, and I am not going to help you. You will just need to continue to labor and be heavy laden and you will find no rest. Too bad for you, because I didn't choose you."

 

[AV1611VET]

I will pass on doing the sin illustration.

Fair enough.

i am a sinner and will be till i die,

As we're fond of saying:

We are sinners saved by grace.

... but thankfully Jesus came and took away the sin of the world.

Amen!

So the only bridge that needs to be crossed to get back into the family of God, is to believe in Jesus for Eternal Life.

"Back into the family of God"???

If you do not believe me read The Gospel of John.

You keep saying this.

I've read the Gospel of John some twenty times.

 

[d taylor]

Fair enough.



As we're fond of saying:

We are sinners saved by grace.



Amen!



"Back into the family of God"???



You keep saying this.

I've read the Gospel of John some twenty times.

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So you do not think that when a person believes in Jesus for God's free gift of Eternal Life. They become a permanent born again child of God. So if that believer is a child then God is their Father.

And i will keep saying read The Gospel of John, because it is the only book of The Bible specifically written to tell people how to have life (eternal life).

 

[AV1611VET]

So you do not think that when a person believes in Jesus for God's free gift of Eternal Life.

John 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

They become a permanent born again child of God.

If they repent of their sins.

So if that believer is a child then God is their Father.

If a believer gets saved, God becomes their Father.

By adoption, I might add.

And i will keep saying read The Gospel of John, because it is the only book of The Bible specifically written to tell people how to have life (eternal life).

Well, I've read it some twenty times now.

I guess that means you have to tell me some sixteen more times, just to catch up.

 

[Clare73]

Calvinism succeeds or fails on the idea that people have no ability to believe the gospel. All the theology is built around supporting that idea.

• T - Total Depravity - Dead people can't put their trust in Christ,
• U - Unconditional Election - God determines who can believe,
• L - Limited Atonement - Jesus did not die for everyone's sins,
• I - Irresistible Grace - No chosen person can refuse to believe, and
• P - Perseverance of the Saints - A chosen person can never choose to be unchosen

I think TULIP should be "TULIPS"...

• S - Soverignty of God - God controls everything in minute detail

So, in my opinion, the best way to overcome Calvinism is to understand that all the calls of God for people to believe in Christ for the salvation of their souls would be cynical if He had already chosen that most people who He instructed to believe had no ability to believe because He blocked them. Here's an example...

Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. (Mt 11:28)​

What kind of horrible theology adds a caveat to this verse like, "And by the way, I know most of you are unable to believe, and I am not going to help you. You will just need to continue to labor and be heavy laden and you will find no rest. Too bad for you, because I didn't choose you."

And therein you err. . .do you think all men come to him?

Only those in whom God works seek that rest from being heavy laden.

I know those to whom it is not an issue, and who have absolutetly no interest in any of it.
Nothing they see, hear or read convinces them, for they have eyes that do not see, ears that do not hear and minds that do not understand, it is a non-issue to them, and remained so to those who have died.

 

[AV1611VET]

Only those in whom God works seek that rest from being heavy laden.

I know those to whom it is not an issue, and who have absoletly no interest in any of it.
Nothing they see, hear or read convinces them, for they have eyes that do not see, ears that do not hear and minds that do not understand, it is a non-issue to them, and remained so to their deaths.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

 

[Fervent]

I realized I didn't address the topic of the thread, the argument against Calvinism is rather simple. It's just a matter of recognizing that their approach to the Bible imposes an understanding of three texts on the entire rest of the Bible, rather than being drawn from a broad spectrum of Biblical passages. Calvinism lives or dies based on how we understand John 6, Romans 9, and Ephesians 1. And understanding them properly depends on contextual analysis, which Calvinist proof texters refuse to engage with. So if you want arguments against Calvinism, begin by engaging with those 3 passages and understanding the non-Calvinistic reading of those passages and the contextual support for such readings.

 

[d taylor]

John 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.



If they repent of their sins.



If a believer gets saved, God becomes their Father.

By adoption, I might add.



Well, I've read it some twenty times now.

I guess that means you have to tell me some sixteen more times, just to catch up.

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Well if you have read it, you must have not read it very close or carefully. Because if you believe a person has to repent of sin to become a born again child of God your adding to belief in Jesus. A condition which The Gospel of John does not state a person must do.

So i would suggest you read The Gospel of John.

 

[AV1611VET]

So i would suggest you read The Gospel of John.

Is John the only book in your Bible?

You have to piece all of the Bible together to get the complete picture.

 

[d taylor]

Is John the only book in your Bible?

You have to piece all of the Bible together to get the complete picture.

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It is when it come to receiving eternal life.

And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

 

[AV1611VET]

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It is when it come to receiving eternal life.

And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.