Anyone have good arguments against Calvinism.

[Hoping2]

Then you misunderstand either Calvin or the Bible, for they are the same.

When one side says your future is preordained, and the other side says our future is up to us, I see no similarities.

 

[Hentenza]

-
​

This website is defiantly the place to go if you want to find teachings that can help you compare and see Calvinism faults and bad teaching.

Grace Evangelical Society

Here is just few of the many free articles they have on their website and youtube site.

Calvinism Has a Box of Mystery Verses – Grace Evangelical Society
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Why Am I a Zero-Point Calvinist? – Grace Evangelical Society
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Bible Study Fellowship, Romans, and Calvinism – Grace Evangelical Society
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Taking Romans 8:28-30 Back from Calvinism – Grace Evangelical Society

Dispensationalism, really?

 

[Hentenza]

A psalm of omniscience and omnipresence.

“Lord, You have searched me and known me.
You know when I sit down and when I get up;
You understand my thought from far away.
You scrutinize my path and my lying down,
And are acquainted with all my ways.
Even before there is a word on my tongue, Behold, Lord, You know it all.
You have encircled me behind and in front, And placed Your hand upon me.
Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; It is too high, I cannot comprehend it.
¶Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence?
If I ascend to heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there.
If I take up the wings of the dawn, If I dwell in the remotest part of the sea,
Even there Your hand will lead me, And Your right hand will take hold of me.
If I say, “Surely the darkness will overwhelm me, And the light around me will be night,”
Even darkness is not dark to You, And the night is as bright as the day. Darkness and light are alike to You.
¶For You created my innermost parts; You wove me in my mother’s womb.
I will give thanks to You, because I am awesomely and wonderfully made;
Wonderful are Your works, And my soul knows it very well.
My frame was not hidden from You When I was made in secret,
And skillfully formed in the depths of the earth; Your eyes have seen my formless substance;
And in Your book were written All the days that were ordained for me,
When as yet there was not one of them.
¶How precious also are Your thoughts for me, God!
How vast is the sum of them! Were I to count them, they would outnumber the sand.
When I awake, I am still with You.
¶If only You would put the wicked to death,
God; Leave me, you men of bloodshed. For they speak against You wickedly,
And Your enemies take Your name in vain. Do I not hate those who hate You, Lord?
And do I not loathe those who rise up against You?
I hate them with the utmost hatred; They have become my enemies.
¶Search me, God, and know my heart; Put me to the test and know my anxious thoughts;
And see if there is any hurtful way in me, And lead me in the everlasting way.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭139‬:‭1‬-‭24‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Psalm 139:2-24 You know when I sit down and when I get up; You understand my thought from far away. You scrutinize my path and my lying down, And are acquainted with all my ways. Even before there is a word on my to | New American Standard Bible - NA

You know when I sit down and when I get up; You understand my thought from far away. You scrutinize my path and my lying down, And are acquainted with all my ways. Even before there is a word on my to

bible.com

Did God choose you? Did He not know you since before the womb? Has God always known you heart? The mystery of God. Are we trying to explain it in human terms? Could we even understand it if we did?

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Taking a step back from that way of thinking and am looking for different ways of looking at it.

I have looked into Calvinism vs Free Will. The following is a book (now a free online resource) that I wrote backing Free Will. The Way and Free Will You will find many strong arguments against Calvinism come from the Early Church Fathers. I have read word for word most of the Fathers from the first 100 -200 years. They all believed in Free Will salvation, and fought the early Calvinistic belief of Fatalism. ChatGPT assures me that the remaining Church Fathers, up until Augustine, all taught Free Will, or Synergy.

 

[Hentenza]

I have looked into Calvinism vs Free Will. The following is a book (now a free online resource) that I wrote backing Free Will. The Way and Free Will You will find many strong arguments against Calvinism come from the Early Church Fathers. I have read word for word most of the Fathers from the first 100 -200 years. They all believed in Free Will salvation, and fought the early Calvinistic belief of Fatalism. ChatGPT assures me that the remaining Church Fathers, up until Augustine, all taught Free Will, or Synergy.

But you believe in open theism so your opinion here is suspect. Do humans have the free will to not sin?

 

[FutureAndAHope]

But you believe in open theism so your opinion here is suspect. Do humans have the free will to not sin?

If by Open Theism you mean:

In short, open theism posits that since God and humans are free, God's knowledge is dynamic and God's providence flexible. Whereas several versions of traditional theism picture God's knowledge of the future as a singular, fixed trajectory, open theism sees it as a plurality of branching possibilities, with some possibilities becoming settled as time moves forward.[8][9] Thus, the future, as well as God's knowledge of it, is open (hence, "open" theism).

A person can not believe in Free Will, unless God's knowledge is open, or God has a mysterious ability to see even future free will choices. Open Theism makes perfect sense for a person who believes in Free Will. It is not some evil doctrine as you suppose it to be.

It is also supported by scripture.

Gen 6:5-7 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."

I am at work at the moment so don't have the time to reply to the comment about sin. Will do so later.

 

[Fervent]

In short, open theism posits that since God and humans are free, God's knowledge is dynamic and God's providence flexible. Whereas several versions of traditional theism picture God's knowledge of the future as a singular, fixed trajectory, open theism sees it as a plurality of branching possibilities, with some possibilities becoming settled as time moves forward.[8][9] Thus, the future, as well as God's knowledge of it, is open (hence, "open" theism).

There's a lot of puffery and weasel words to that. As with other human philosophies that push at the edges of the mystery, you've stumbled into heresy by denying an essential attribute(omniscience).

The fact is, we have free will in a seemingly deterministic world. There's a paradox that human imaginations can't solve, and sometimes it's better to just accept that its beyond us than try to develop a philosophical system to solve the Gordian knot.

 

[Hentenza]

If by Open Theism you mean:

In short, open theism posits that since God and humans are free, God's knowledge is dynamic and God's providence flexible. Whereas several versions of traditional theism picture God's knowledge of the future as a singular, fixed trajectory, open theism sees it as a plurality of branching possibilities, with some possibilities becoming settled as time moves forward.[8][9] Thus, the future, as well as God's knowledge of it, is open (hence, "open" theism).

A person can not believe in Free Will, unless God's knowledge is open, or God has a mysterious ability to see even future free will choices. Open Theism makes perfect sense for a person who believes in Free Will. It is not some evil doctrine as you suppose it to be.

It is also supported by scripture.

Gen 6:5-7 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."

I am at work at the moment so don't have the time to reply to the comment about sin. Will do so later.

Open theism is not biblical and can not be discussed in this forum but can only be discussed in the controversial theology room. Open a thread there if you want to discuss it.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

you've stumbled into heresy by denying an essential attribute (omniscience).

God can still have knowledge of the future, within the framework that I believe. But in line with scripture, I don't subtract God's attributes, where He often changes His mind, about people, cities, and places, and as I have shown from Genesis, He shows regret for creating man. This is all because God has given man Free Will. Giving man genuine choice does not negate God's power, and ability to control our lives, and the future. Having a theology that allows these attributes is necessary, and scriptural, it is certainly not a heresy.

Open theism is not biblical and can not be discussed in this forum but can only be discussed in the controversial theology room.

That is just ridiculous, a belief founded on a literal reading of scripture is considered off limits to discussion. I won't be remaining silent in future, just because somebody can't stomach open debate.

 

[Hentenza]

That is just ridiculous, a belief founded on a literal reading of scripture is considered off limits to discussion. I won't be remaining silent in future, just because somebody can't stomach open debate.

From the statement of purpose sticky for general theology.

Discussions in all "Christians Only" forums must be in alignment with Trinitarian beliefs. Unorthodox Christian theology may only be discussed in the Controversial Christian Theology forum. These unorthodox topics do not directly oppose the Nicene Creed, but are not considered to be orthodox on CF. These unorthodox topics may not contradict the Nicene Creed. Non-Trinitarianism may only be discussed in the Outreach category forums. Gnosticism may not be discussed in any CF forums. The Controversial Christian Theology forum is open to Christian members only (faith groups list). Unorthodox Christian theological topics include (but are not limited to):

• Annihilationism
• Full Preterism
• Open Theism
• Universalism
• Pelagianism

 

[Clare73]

When one side says your future is preordained, and the other side says our future is up to us, I see no similarities.

Because you are misunderstanding one of them. . .

 

[Hoping2]

Because you are misunderstanding one of them. . .

Conversion cannot be forced.

 

[Clare73]

Conversion cannot be forced.

When you choose what you prefer, you are not being forced.

God gives them to prefer him.

 

[Hoping2]

When you choose what you prefer, you are not being forced.

God gives them to prefer him.

So conversion is forced !
The choice was coerced.

 

[tall73]

The fall of Adam was not a neutral event—it was the willful rebellion of man against a holy God.

Did Adam, in your view, have free will in that regards, or was his fall decreed?

 

[Hazelelponi]

Did Adam, in your view, have free will in that regards, or was his fall decreed?

Adam and Eve were created upright—but mutable (able to fall).

The fall was in God's decree, yes. It was decreed because nothing happens outside of God's decree.

Chapter 3 of the Second London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689 (2LCF) is titled, “Of God’s Decree.” God’s “decree” is His plan or purpose that has existed in His mind from eternity past. Robert Shaw says, “By the decree of God is meant his purpose or determination with respect to future things; or, more fully, his determinate counsel, whereby from all eternity, he fore-ordained whatever he should do, or would permit to be done, in time.”1 The decree is an aspect of God’s internal work, and it therefore precedes any of God’s external works in time and space. God’s external works of creation and providence effectively implement God’s eternal decree.

The Nature of God's Eternal Decree

Chapter 3 of the Second London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689 (2LCF) is titled, “Of God’s Decree.” God’s “decree” is His plan or purpose that has existed in His mind from eternity past. Robert Shaw says, “By the decree of God is meant his purpose or determination with respect to future...

founders.org

 

[Fervent]

The fall was in God's decree, yes. It was decreed because nothing happens outside of God's decree.

I really don't understand how someone could possibly find a God who designed atrocities like the holocaust worthy of worship. Your theology turns God into the only sinner, as everyone else does exactly what God intended for them to do.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I really don't understand how someone could possibly find a God who designed atrocities like the holocaust worthy of worship. Your theology turns God into the only sinner, as everyone else does exactly what God intended for them to do.

The horror of sin doesn’t disprove God's sovereignty—it reveals why we need it. A theology that only permits a God who never ordains suffering is not biblical; it’s sentimental. The problem isn’t that Reformed theology makes God the "only sinner," but that man refuses to see the depth of his own guilt apart from grace.

Scripture is clear: God is holy, just, and good in all His works—even when He ordains evil for righteous ends. He raised up Pharaoh so that His name would be proclaimed in all the earth (Exodus 9:16, Romans 9:17–18). He predestined the crucifixion of His own Son—“this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified” (Acts 2:23). Do you think the cross was Plan B?

You speak as though God must justify Himself to man. But who are we, O man, to answer back to God? (Romans 9:20). If evil exists apart from God's decree, then it exists outside His control—and that would be a far more terrifying universe.

Yes, humans commit atrocities—and yes, they are morally responsible for them. That’s the point. We’re not good people making mistakes. We are fallen creatures in need of sovereign mercy. The “free will” most appeal to is the very thing enslaved to sin unless God intervenes (John 8:34, Romans 3:10–18). And He has intervened—in Christ, to redeem a people for Himself out of this broken world. A multitude no one can number (Revelation 7:9).

The wonder isn’t that God allows sin and judgment—but that He saves anyone at all.

 

[Fervent]

The horror of sin doesn’t disprove God's sovereignty—it reveals why we need it. A theology that only permits a God who never ordains suffering is not biblical; it’s sentimental. The problem isn’t that Reformed theology makes God the "only sinner," but that man refuses to see the depth of his own guilt apart from grace.

Scripture is clear: God is holy, just, and good in all His works—even when He ordains evil for righteous ends. He raised up Pharaoh so that His name would be proclaimed in all the earth (Exodus 9:16, Romans 9:17–18). He predestined the crucifixion of His own Son—“this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified” (Acts 2:23). Do you think the cross was Plan B?

You speak as though God must justify Himself to man. But who are we, O man, to answer back to God? (Romans 9:20). If evil exists apart from God's decree, then it exists outside His control—and that would be a far more terrifying universe.

Yes, humans commit atrocities—and yes, they are morally responsible for them. That’s the point. We’re not good people making mistakes. We are fallen creatures in need of sovereign mercy. The “free will” most appeal to is the very thing enslaved to sin unless God intervenes (John 8:34, Romans 3:10–18). And He has intervened—in Christ, to redeem a people for Himself out of this broken world. A multitude no one can number (Revelation 7:9).

The wonder isn’t that God allows sin and judgment—but that He saves anyone at all.

How is something that God designed so that no outher possible thing would happen supposed to reveal why we need such sovereignty? Your twisted view of providence defames the character of God by attributing all sin to Him. You spout off Calvinist proof texts with no concern for the context you rip them out of, and turn God into a moral monster. You speak of humans committing sin and atrocities, but you claim that God has fixed it such that those atrocities were inevitable and somehow His authoring sin, the suffering of innocents, and hell is supposed to bring Him glory? You present Him as worse than the devil.