Anyone else tired of the police-hate threads

[Sistrin]

Those people seem angry.

I'm sure you can understand (without condoning their actions) their frustration with a government and system that seemingly does nothing about what they see as a very serious problem for their community. Right?

That is why we have a legal system. Being angry does not justify destruction of private property nor attacking either the police or people out for the evening just because they are there.

Just because you feel no connection to the message of the song doesn't mean there isn't one.

That isn't what I said. I said the song was a political screed promoting an agenda based largely on discredited narratives. Hands-up don't-shoot did not happen. Freddie Gray was not killed just because he was black. George Bush did not blow up the levies in New Orleans in order to flood black neighborhoods. The Black Panther Party was not a peaceful activist group.

I have no problem with someone making a political statement, as long as they are honest in doing so.

 

[smaneck]

It's complicated by the proliferation of cell phone cameras. So, because we have many, many videos of cops going rogue, it gives the impression that this was a sudden phenomenon, while it's probably just that we are more aware of it, now that people can record criminal behavior by police.

The vast majority of police are good and decent people. The videos are a good thing; we need to identify and remove the bad ones as quickly as we can.

Which is why all cops should wear body cameras. That way we will know the difference between the good cops and the bad.

 

[GrimKingGrim]

You obviously haven't seen the music video. Here is one image from it I can post:

What about this says "I hate cops?"

Social media is slobbering all over the song as if it were a lost Beethoven symphony.

It wasn't the song that was the important part, it was the video.

Technically it qualifies as music, but it is more a political statement promoting the current leftist race-hustling agenda that the police are gunning down poor black people

You admit to at least acknowledging the problem before you try to hide it in this run-on sentence

just because they are black sung by a woman wearing a hundred-thousand dollars worth of costume and jewelry.

I mean she's rich? What would she wear? This is pointless to point out

 

[GrimKingGrim]

You know, just to contextualize some of this, I feel the need to point out "The Talk". You've all heard of the sex talk, the drugs talk, maybe a few other such talks... Did you get the "police" talk? What was it like? For African-Americans, this is an important one. You can hear such stories everywhere you look. These people teach their children to be afraid of the police, because they have to - because the alternative often ends up being dead children. This is not something they want to do. This is something they do because they know their children will not be treated the same way white children will by the police, and this disparity will only grow as the child grows older. These are the talks they give because otherwise, or even in spite of it, their child might end up being the next Freddy Gray or Tamir Rice. Even the wealthy and powerful must give this talk to their children. Gawker has collected several statements, here are some excerpts I found particularly interesting:

No sugarcoating. There it was. "Look, stay away from cops. They are not your friends. You answer their questions if they ask you with 'yes sir' and 'no ma'am' unless it is incriminating, then you exercise your right to be silent. Don't talk back, don't even slouch, pull up your pants. Be polite, no sudden movements. Don't give him a reason because these cops will shoot you and not think twice about it." She used choice other words, but that was it. All our suspicions, fears about police vocalized by the smartest person we knew.

[...]

I have a 24-year-old son. I have given him the talk. He has been with me when the police stopped me, primarily because the police recklessly eyeballed my son, and didn't see me—the little old lady—driving the car. So he knows the drill. Ask the police before you reach for your license. Ask the police for permission to get your insurance card and registration out the glove box. Do not answer any questions. Just do as you are told.

Once my son and I were getting out the car at the shopping mall, the police approached him and asked him: "Did you just leave the mall?" I intervened. I instructed my son to "never, ever answer a question from the police." Ask the police: "Am I free to go?" Do not answer any questions. Be polite. Be cordial. But never answer any questions. Keep asking: "Am I free to go?" "Am I under arrest?" "What are the charges?" "May I make a phone call?" However, do not move suddenly. Do not get smart-alecky. Do not run. If the police start swinging, drop to the ground, protect your head and vital organs by curling up in a ball on your knees.

[...]

I've been given this talk many times by many people. Don't be aggressive. Police usually work in groups of two: If you see one, assume there is one you cannot see. Nine times out of ten, people will believe the police over believing you. If a cop hits you, don't fight back: Hope that someone will notice and say something. Never match outfits: More than three men dressed in the same color equals a gang.

When I was younger, I listened, but I didn't think it applied to me. My eyes weren't opened until I was older; I was stopped numerous times in high school. I played the French horn, and was once pulled off the train by a cop who thought it was a bomb or that I was smuggling drugs or weapons.
​

Lemme just comment on this because it hits really close to home. I got that talk and it was a very surreal moment in my life where my dad sat me and my brother down and told us we were teenage black men and we needed to be careful about what we do, say, and how we carry ourselves and how those are key to us making it home at night. I grew up in the suburbs, man --But my parents are from 1970s Brooklyn so they know what a real hood is like -- so for me to hear how I'm constantly perceived as a threat just because I'm black, it was a life changing experience. Growing up sheltered in the way I was my mind wasn't ready to hear that.

And most black people I know will tell you that they also got "the talk" from their parents to. You push it to the back of your mind but the truth is it's always hanging over you. You don't get the freedom to act like everyone else. You don't have the privilege to be as stupid as someone else. You have to be on your A-game every single place you go because you have the "2 strikes:" Black and Male already pinned against you and those are extremely negative already. The 3rd strike could cost you your life or your freedom. And better believe they will put me in the prison cycle as soon as they arrest me once. Just because. That is the life I live.

I don't go around hating cops or assuming everyone around me is a racist, but the fact that I know I have the 2 strikes means I'm always self aware of any time they may bite me. Heck I'm nervous when a police car is even in the same lane as me.

Which is why I'm one of the most straight edge people around. I'd love to be screwing up right now and just experimenting with life because I'm only 23, but then I think is is worth a lifetime of hindrance? Or death? Nah I'll just go to school and work then. Not even worth the risk.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

It would be lame if Independant police auditing were normal.

Who would be in charge of carrying out this auditing?

It would be lame if police didn't have the monopoly on violence

They don't, just ask the dozens of CF posters who complain about how it's too easy to buy a gun...The black panthers (the original crew, not the joke that's in place now) use to put together armed citizens patrols to keep corrupt police officers honest...the option still exists today if people in certain communities feel it's a large enough concern.

It wouldn't get as much traction if their actions in aggregate were not the result of class war.

I think you'd be hard pressed to try to prove that one...

There's no doubt that police corruption occurs...and there's no doubt that it's gotten much more attention recently as opposed to in the past. However, to say that it's the result of "class war" is where you lost me. I don't know that could even be proven one way or the other to be honest.

A couple aspects that need to be considered...
There is a higher saturation of violent crime in inner city environments (which also happen to be lower income in most cases)
It only makes sense that there's a higher police presence in areas where there has been more reported violent crime
With a higher police presence, the higher the chance people in that area have of having an interaction with the police
With the increased number of police interactions, comes the increased risk of having an encounter with one of the "bad cops"

However, that can't be automatically labelled as class warfare as much as it came be just a case of "playing the odds" so to speak. If there's 1 incident of misconduct per year for every 200 police officers, then it only makes sense that an area with 2,000 police is going to have more reported incidents than an area that has only 20 or 30 cops.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Lemme just comment on this because it hits really close to home. I got that talk and it was a very surreal moment in my life where my dad sat me and my brother down and told us we were teenage black men and we needed to be careful about what we do, say, and how we carry ourselves and how those are key to us making it home at night. I grew up in the suburbs, man --But my parents are from 1970s Brooklyn so they know what a real hood is like -- so for me to hear how I'm constantly perceived as a threat just because I'm black, it was a life changing experience. Growing up sheltered in the way I was my mind wasn't ready to hear that.

And most black people I know will tell you that they also got "the talk" from their parents to. You push it to the back of your mind but the truth is it's always hanging over you. You don't get the freedom to act like everyone else. You don't have the privilege to be as stupid as someone else. You have to be on your A-game every single place you go because you have the "2 strikes:" Black and Male already pinned against you and those are extremely negative already. The 3rd strike could cost you your life or your freedom. And better believe they will put me in the prison cycle as soon as they arrest me once. Just because. That is the life I live.

I don't go around hating cops or assuming everyone around me is a racist, but the fact that I know I have the 2 strikes means I'm always self aware of any time they may bite me. Heck I'm nervous when a police car is even in the same lane as me.

Which is why I'm one of the most straight edge people around. I'd love to be screwing up right now and just experimenting with life because I'm only 23, but then I think is is worth a lifetime of hindrance? Or death? Nah I'll just go to school and work then. Not even worth the risk.

My dad sat me down one day and gave me the "talk". It was rather short and simple...

Do what the police tell you...always. Doesn't matter if they are wrong and you're right, do what they say if you're confronted by them somewhere. Don't try to fight or resist them ever. Don't talk back...don't be insulting.

Once they have you in custody, don't tell them anything about anything and ask for a lawyer. Simply repeat this and do nothing else until they bring you a lawyer or let you go.

I've been pulled over more than a dozen times in my life...mostly for nonsense. I've been yelled at, even screamed at by police over nothing. What's the end result of this?

Maybe 3 tickets totaling about 300-400 in fines...maybe a slight sting to my pride a couple of times. All in all I think my dad's advice was great. It's a simple "how to deal with police" guide that can work for anyone.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Like with Muslims and their more extremist varieties... How do we tell the good ones from the bad ones? To me, all cops come in the same uniform and as a citizen, I don't get to choose what kind of cop I'm gonna have to deal with. That's why I'd rather hold them all up to a higher standard, to insure the most protection for the most vulnerable.

Lol could you imagine how people would react if a cop said this after a shooting?

"I don't get to choose which black/white man I confront on a daily basis. How do I tell the good from the bad? I prefer to hold them all to a higher standard...that's why I shot that guy running away from me."

You'd be appalled at the way that cop generalized a group of people. Yet you have no problem doing the same and feel justified for it?

 

[The Cadet]

"I don't get to choose which black/white man I confront on a daily basis. How do I tell the good from the bad? I prefer to hold them all to a higher standard...that's why I shot that guy running away from me."

You'd be appalled at the way that cop generalized a group of people. Yet you have no problem doing the same and feel justified for it?

You've completely changed the scenario, though. In @GoldenBoy89's scenario, nobody is getting shot. But beyond that, we're not talking about some random racial demographic. We're talking about people who hold a specific job. A job that is important and requires a high degree of responsibility; a job one can leave if the pressure becomes too much. He's explicitly referring to those who willingly take on extra responsibilities, and to whom society, as a result, confers extremely important privileges to. The police can, and often do, ruin or end lives. If we give people power like that, we'd better hold them to a high standard!

There is nothing wrong with holding the police to a higher standard. In fact, there's something seriously wrong with not holding them to a higher standard.

 

[Nithavela]

I think that everyone should be shot. Instant disappearance of police brutality.

 

[Vylo]

I think that everyone should be shot. Instant disappearance of police brutality.

Get this man on the GOP ticket.

 

[Rick Otto]

That is why we have a legal system. Being angry does not justify destruction of private property nor attacking either the police or people out for the evening just because they are there.



That isn't what I said. I said the song was a political screed promoting an agenda based largely on discredited narratives. Hands-up don't-shoot did not happen. Freddie Gray was not killed just because he was black. George Bush did not blow up the levies in New Orleans in order to flood black neighborhoods. The Black Panther Party was not a peaceful activist group.

I have no problem with someone making a political statement, as long as they are honest in doing so.

I disagree with what you consider honest.

 

[Rick Otto]

Who would be in charge of carrying out this auditing?

They don't, just ask the dozens of CF posters who complain about how it's too easy to buy a gun...The black panthers (the original crew, not the joke that's in place now) use to put together armed citizens patrols to keep corrupt police officers honest...the option still exists today if people in certain communities feel it's a large enough concern.

I think you'd be hard pressed to try to prove that one...

There's no doubt that police corruption occurs...and there's no doubt that it's gotten much more attention recently as opposed to in the past. However, to say that it's the result of "class war" is where you lost me. I don't know that could even be proven one way or the other to be honest.

A couple aspects that need to be considered...
There is a higher saturation of violent crime in inner city environments (which also happen to be lower income in most cases)
It only makes sense that there's a higher police presence in areas where there has been more reported violent crime
With a higher police presence, the higher the chance people in that area have of having an interaction with the police
With the increased number of police interactions, comes the increased risk of having an encounter with one of the "bad cops"

However, that can't be automatically labelled as class warfare as much as it came be just a case of "playing the odds" so to speak. If there's 1 incident of misconduct per year for every 200 police officers, then it only makes sense that an area with 2,000 police is going to have more reported incidents than an area that has only 20 or 30 cops.

A monopoly on violence does not mean only those in the monopoly are violent.
My remark was not limited to violence. When police do good work, they are still serving corporate masters, not sovereign citizens. You seem to understand the correlation between high crime and concentrated poverty, but you seem to think the poor live on top of each other because they want to. You don't appear to see how demographics are a result of class structuring.

 

[Ana the Ist]

You've completely changed the scenario, though. In @GoldenBoy89's scenario, nobody is getting shot. But beyond that, we're not talking about some random racial demographic. We're talking about people who hold a specific job. A job that is important and requires a high degree of responsibility; a job one can leave if the pressure becomes too much. He's explicitly referring to those who willingly take on extra responsibilities, and to whom society, as a result, confers extremely important privileges to. The police can, and often do, ruin or end lives. If we give people power like that, we'd better hold them to a high standard!

There is nothing wrong with holding the police to a higher standard. In fact, there's something seriously wrong with not holding them to a higher standard.

Yea look...I'm guessing by "higher standard" you mean higher standard than the average person? Is that it?

In what way?

 

[The Cadet]

Yea look...I'm guessing by "higher standard" you mean higher standard than the average person? Is that it?

In what way?

Imagine there's a certain job that gives your word weight as evidence in a court of law. Even if you are the accused, your word counts as solid evidence to this court. This is an immense responsibility; why should it not be expected that they comport themselves in such a way that shows that this privilege is deserved?

Again, the police have a litany of powers and privileges which offer them immense power over ordinary civilians. They have the power to, with a word, essentially ruin your life. Their privileges place them in a unique position for, say, getting away with murder (as we've seen time and time again). Nobody else immediately gets the benefit of the doubt when they shoot someone who is unarmed. Is it unreasonable to say that they should be held to a higher standard? That they should be required to earn those privileges, and deserve those powers? That these privileges should not be given to those who are psychologically unstable and who have performed dismally in the past? And that we should punish the abuse of these privileges heavily?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Imagine there's a certain job that gives your word weight as evidence in a court of law. Even if you are the accused, your word counts as solid evidence to this court. This is an immense responsibility; why should it not be expected that they comport themselves in such a way that shows that this privilege is deserved?

Again, the police have a litany of powers and privileges which offer them immense power over ordinary civilians. They have the power to, with a word, essentially ruin your life. Their privileges place them in a unique position for, say, getting away with murder (as we've seen time and time again). Nobody else immediately gets the benefit of the doubt when they shoot someone who is unarmed. Is it unreasonable to say that they should be held to a higher standard? That they should be required to earn those privileges, and deserve those powers? That these privileges should not be given to those who are psychologically unstable and who have performed dismally in the past? And that we should punish the abuse of these privileges heavily?

I happen to agree with everything you've said here...I also happen to think that is, for the most part, the system we have.

Granted...there are problems...but they're human problems. I don't think you can have a police force of 500k and not expect to see all the things you would see in literally any other group of half a million humans. What do I mean by that?

You'll see racism, you'll see sexism, you'll find lying, and in the worst of cases...you'll find criminals. On the other end of the spectrum...most commonly...you'll see mistakes. You can agree with that, right?

We can try to minimize these problems...but since they are "human" problems, we should always expect them...shouldn't we?

 

[The Cadet]

I happen to agree with everything you've said here...I also happen to think that is, for the most part, the system we have.

Really? Loehmann, as far as I can tell, still has his job and has not been charged with murdering Tamir Rice. He was hired despite his last job being at a police department that recommended that he never be on duty again due to psychological problems and miserable performance. Clearly, there is something wrong here.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Really? Loehmann, as far as I can tell, still has his job and has not been charged with murdering Tamir Rice.

Murder? What did he do that was illegal?

 

[The Cadet]

Murder? What did he do that was illegal?

I'm well aware that he was acquitted by a grand jury. But you can look at the video for yourself. The man basically rolls up to the scene and immediately opens fire.

 

[whatbogsends]

Think again. Broad brush strokes that encompass all police as bad is stupid.

Broad brush strokes that encompass all police as heroes is stupid.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Broad brush strokes that encompass all police as heroes is stupid.

Agreed...I feel the same way about military as well.