Antichrist

[2tim_215]

This might explain it well.
https://activechristianity.org/truth-nature-jesus-born

 

[~Anastasia~]

Docetists would likewise claim it blasphemous for not agreeing with them.

I'm not saying it's potentially blasphemous because it doesn't agree with me or whoever. It's not a personal thing.

I'm saying it's potentially blasphemous to associate Jesus Christ, the Son of God, with sinful flesh/nature.

Now in light of what you propose, that Jesus experience the physical feebleness we experience, but not the temptations we have, consider the verses I already mentioned, which apparently you overlooked.

Heb 4:15 "For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are— yet was without sin."

Heb 2:17,18 For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

I didn't overlook them.

At the same time, one can quote James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.

And use that to "argue" against your verses (or else argue against the divinity of Christ, and we wouldn't want to do that!).

Scripture obviously doesn't contradict Scripture though.

Satan tempted Christ in the wilderness with food, for example. Food isn't evil. And Jesus didn't need to have sinful inclinations to feel hunger and want to eat after 40 days of fasting. Simply having a human body (which He did) is sufficient. Adam and Eve were given food to eat before the fall.

(And yes, I'm one of "those" that believe a fundamental change happened in the world when Adam and Eve sinned - though we wouldn't talk about "sin nature" in the same way. So my disagreement with you might not even be in opposition to what you actually mean.)

But my point is that Christ didn't need "sinful flesh" in order to understand us.

And to say that Christ possessed "sinful flesh" is to associate God with evil. Was His blood, coursing through "sinful flesh" then sinful as well? This just cannot be. We needed a "pure and spotless Lamb" ...

 

[hedrick]

At the same time, one can quote James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.

I don't normally engage in this kind of proof-texting, because it's removing statements from their context and using them in a way the author wouldn't have envisioned.

But let me point out that Christ has two natures. Obviously God can't be tempted, but the human can. Mark 1:13 and parallels says that Jesus was. But you cite this yourself, so I'm not sure quite what your posting means.

 

[bling]

What do you mean by "sinner"?

The nature itself does not make you guilty of sin.

 

[bling]

A sinful nature is a tendency. If you say that your car tends to break down, yet it never has broken down, then you would be contradicting yourself. I cannot say that Christ tends to sin if he never has. Therefore, he does not have a sinful nature. Otherwise, the term has no meaning.

The cars tendency to break down is not what causes the car to break down. If your operating the car with broken parts than it would have a tendency to break down but the broken parts is the cause.

 

[bling]

I agree. There are those in this thread who believe Adam and Eve didn't have a sinful nature until they sinned. There's no scripture to support that. If you look at the description of Eve's temptation:

Gen 3:4-6 Then the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die. "For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate.

That seems right in line with the experience of temptation due to one's sinful nature and in line with 1John 2:16 For all that is in the world——the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life——is not of the Father but is of the world.

Rather I view the death that was due to Adam and Eve is referring to physical death, due to the fact that they were restricted from the tree of life which maintained their physical life.

Part of the reason people want Adam and Eve to not have a "sinful nature" or a nature like we have is because they feel that puts the blame on God for their sin and not giving them a better "nature"?

 

[~Anastasia~]

I don't normally engage in this kind of proof-texting, because it's removing statements from their context and using them in a way the author wouldn't have envisioned.

But let me point out that Christ has two natures. Obviously God can't be tempted, but the human can. Mark 1:13 and parallels says that Jesus was. But you cite this yourself, so I'm not sure quite what your posting means.

Right I agree with you.

It might detail the thread though. I was trying to make another point and did so rather clumsily.

 

[2tim_215]

The nature itself does not make you guilty of sin.

It just means you're very susceptible to sin which did apply to Jesus when He put on human flesh but He never gave way to it. All sin comes through the flesh.
James 1:14-16 (KJV)
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

Paul,
Romans 7:18 (KJV) For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Romans 7:23-25 (KJV)
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Romans 8:1-2 (KJV)
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Romans 8:1-14 (KJV)
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Romans 9:8 (KJV) That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Romans 13:14 (KJV) But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.
provision - G4307 from <G4306> (pronoeo); forethought, i.e. provident care or supply :- providence, provision.
lusts - G1939 from <G1937> (epithumeo); a longing (especially for what is forbidden) :- concupiscence, desire, lust (after).

 

[Dave L]

Yep I already said, and I quote, "Jesus didn't sin". You might want read more carefully before responding, else, "He who answers before listening— that is his folly and his shame." Pr 18:13

But you think he had a sinful nature which alone merits eternal hell.

 

[bcbsr]

But you think he had a sinful nature which alone merits eternal hell.

I've heard that theory. I find it bizarre and unscriptural for reasons I mentioned in this thread.

 

[Dave L]

I've heard that theory. I find it bizarre and unscriptural for reasons I mentioned in this thread.

Why must we be born again? If we are not spiritually dead? And can do zero good with the right motive? “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:” (Romans 3:10)

Righteousness = doing good things for the right reasons. Paul says nobody does this.

 

[jamesbond007]

The anti in "Antichrist" is a Greek word which typically means "in place of". And given the usage in scriptures speaking of the antiChrist, it's not one who rejects Christ, but rather replaces Christ. (Or one who rejects the real Christ by replacing him with their own version)

1John 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.

...

If that was the case back then, not surprising to find it the case these days.

Who was the Antichrist back then?

I've heard it to be Nero Caesar who was an evil emperor who torched Rome (in order to build a newer one) and blamed it on Christians.

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/623-nero-caesar-and-the-christian-faith

https://www.thoughtco.com/who-is-the-antichrist-700629

And the new one could be even worse.

 

[bcbsr]

Why must we be born again? If we are not spiritually dead? And can do zero good with the right motive? “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:” (Romans 3:10)

Righteousness = doing good things for the right reasons. Paul says nobody does this.

That's a different topic. The topic we had left off on was your proposition that though not sinning, not committing a crime one is reckoned guilty simply for being born with a sinful nature. What you're describing to me is injustice, that God is unjust, holding people accountable for things over which they have no control. But given that the scriptures indicate the God is just, such a theory is to be discarded.

 

[bcbsr]

Who was the Antichrist back then?

I've heard it to be Nero Caesar who was an evil emperor who torched Rome (in order to build a newer one) and blamed it on Christians.

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/623-nero-caesar-and-the-christian-faith

https://www.thoughtco.com/who-is-the-antichrist-700629

And the new one could be even worse.

John writes of there being a plurality of antichrists

1John 2:18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.

There is a semantic construct known as "par excellence". It's used for example in John 1:21 when John the Baptist was asked "Are you the Prophet?" While there are many prophets yet there was one in particular who was to come, which Peter in Acts 3 indicated was Jesus. So also while there have been many antichrists, there is yet one par excellence Antichrist who I would ague is yet to come. Though Preterists argue he already came, like the person of Nero or such.

 

[SkyWriting]

Realize your saying that people are born guilty, and not because of any action on their part, but rather because God created them guilty. You've just described injustice. The God of the scriptures is just, and therefore you're wrong.

You might say that people choose to sin and God allows that
and a just God would not, so your premise is wrong.

We can always claim we know better than God what I right
so therefore God is wrong. I doubt that.

God forwas that man would choose to sin so even while we
were still sinners (all of us, even you) God sent His only Son
to die for our sins. The wages of Sin is death, and somebody had
to pay those deserved wages. Jesus did and his work is sufficient.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 3:23
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin,
and so death spread to all men
because all sinned—

Ezekiel 18:4
Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.

James 1:15
Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin,
and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

 

[bling]

It just means you're very susceptible to sin which did apply to Jesus when He put on human flesh but He never gave way to it. All sin comes through the flesh.
James 1:14-16 (KJV)
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

Paul,
Romans 7:18 (KJV) For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Romans 7:23-25 (KJV)
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Romans 8:1-2 (KJV)
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Romans 8:1-14 (KJV)
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Romans 9:8 (KJV) That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Romans 13:14 (KJV) But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.
provision - G4307 from <G4306> (pronoeo); forethought, i.e. provident care or supply :- providence, provision.
lusts - G1939 from <G1937> (epithumeo); a longing (especially for what is forbidden) :- concupiscence, desire, lust (after).

Yes good.

 

[hedrick]

I've heard that theory. I find it bizarre and unscriptural for reasons I mentioned in this thread.

I don’t accept it either. But I think it’s worth explaining what’s going on.

In traditional Protestant theology, justification is by faith, not works. That is, God doesn’t judge people by weighing their deeds. Rather, people are God’s based on their basic orientation, or perhaps, loyalty. Similarly Calvin believed that before they have faith, people were unacceptable not just because of specific sins, but because their basic orientation was in opposition to God. They may not have sinned yet, but their character and motivations would lead to sin, because they were opposed to God's will. That opposition made them unacceptable. Calvin believed that the most important aspect of original sin was that we inherit a fallen nature, which leaves us opposed to God's will. Only through regeneration by God's grace could we escape that condition.

 

[2tim_215]

We aren't saved by works, we are saved by grace through faith. However, we will all be judged by our works when we stand before God which we will all have to do one day.

 

[bcbsr]

You might say that people choose to sin and God allows thatand a just God would not, so your premise is wrong.

Actually your premise is wrong.
First you claim that a just God would not allow people to choose to sin. That doesn't logically follow. While God tolerates sin for a time, God is just and as such will hold people accountable or otherwise satisfy the demands of justice.

Secondly you're claiming that God is in fact unjust and you're attempting to defend the idea that he is unjust. I'm saying that if you believe God is practicing injustice then you're not talking about the God of scripture.

 

[SkyWriting]

Actually your premise is wrong.
First you claim that a just God would not allow people to choose to sin. That doesn't logically follow. While God tolerates sin for a time, God is just and as such will hold people accountable or otherwise satisfy the demands of justice.

Secondly you're claiming that God is in fact unjust and you're attempting to defend the idea that he is unjust. I'm saying that if you believe God is practicing injustice then you're not talking about the God of scripture.

I''l explain here that God is just.
God knew about the Fall of man and planned for it.
You can build robots that love you, or for those you truely
love, you give them options to choose you or not. True
love allows others to make bad decisions. Your analysis
that bad decisions should not be allowed, is faulty.

God created man perfect knowing that to give options is
the only true form of love. Even Jesus had the option to
follow through on the Fathers plan, and did so with regret
but with devotion to the Fathers will.