Antichrist

bcbsr

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The anti in "Antichrist" is a Greek word which typically means "in place of". And given the usage in scriptures speaking of the antiChrist, it's not one who rejects Christ, but rather replaces Christ. (Or one who rejects the real Christ by replacing him with their own version)

1John 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.

2John 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

By the way, the word "flesh" σαρξ is the same work the NIV many times translates "sinful nature"

The docetists viewed themselves as believing in Christ and respected him in their own mind. But the idea of Christ coming in the flesh was something they rejected because due to their Gnostic presumptions they thought that the flesh was inherently evil and Jesus is holy. So they would say that their doctrine of view Jesus as a phantasm preserves Christ's holiness. Yet John views that doctrine as so heretical that he makes the statements that he does.

Just a side thought. Makes me wonder about those multitudes of Christians today who deny Jesus' human nature, not sharing the same kind of sinful flesh that we have, not being subject to temptations in the flesh due to our human nature, seemingly contrary to Heb 4:15 "For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are— yet was without sin." Which seems to indicate that if Jesus came in some sort of non-human flesh, not unlike the Docetist's phantasm theory, he would not be able to sympathize with us. Those who defend the idea of the non-human nature of Jesus' flesh argue much the same as the docetists. We're tempted by the world, the flesh (the sinful nature), and the devil. What temptations was your "Jesus" subjected to?

Heb 2:17,18 For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

Makes me wonder how John would classify those who deny Jesus' incarnation into the flesh containing a sinful nature.

Anyhow another Antichrist verse is 2Th 2:4 "He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God." So again, not an atheist, but rather he replaces God.

As such just because a person says they believe in "Jesus", doesn't mean they believe in the Jesus of the scriptures. Even Muslims believe in a "Jesus". "For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough." 2Cor 11:4

If that was the case back then, not surprising to find it the case these days.
 

Dave L

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The anti in "Antichrist" is a Greek word which typically means "in place of". And given the usage in scriptures speaking of the antiChrist, it's not one who rejects Christ, but rather replaces Christ. (Or one who rejects the real Christ by replacing him with their own version)

1John 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.

2John 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

By the way, the word "flesh" σαρξ is the same work the NIV many times translates "sinful nature"

The docetists viewed themselves as believing in Christ and respected him in their own mind. But the idea of Christ coming in the flesh was something they rejected because due to their Gnostic presumptions they thought that the flesh was inherently evil and Jesus is holy. So they would say that their doctrine of view Jesus as a phantasm preserves Christ's holiness. Yet John views that doctrine as so heretical that he makes the statements that he does.

Just a side thought. Makes me wonder about those multitudes of Christians today who deny Jesus' human nature, not sharing the same kind of sinful flesh that we have, not being subject to temptations in the flesh due to our human nature, seemingly contrary to Heb 4:15 "For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are— yet was without sin." Which seems to indicate that if Jesus came in some sort of non-human flesh, not unlike the Docetist's phantasm theory, he would not be able to sympathize with us. Those who defend the idea of the non-human nature of Jesus' flesh argue much the same as the docetists. We're tempted by the world, the flesh (the sinful nature), and the devil. What temptations was your "Jesus" subjected to?

Heb 2:17,18 For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

Makes me wonder how John would classify those who deny Jesus' incarnation into the flesh containing a sinful nature.

Anyhow another Antichrist verse is 2Th 2:4 "He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God." So again, not an atheist, but rather he replaces God.

As such just because a person says they believe in "Jesus", doesn't mean they believe in the Jesus of the scriptures. Even Muslims believe in a "Jesus". "For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough." 2Cor 11:4

If that was the case back then, not surprising to find it the case these days.
If Jesus had a sinful nature, he died only for his own sins and is still in the ground.
 
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bcbsr

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If Jesus had a sinful nature, he died only for his own sins and is still in the ground.
You're mistaken. Just being born with a sinful nature doesn't make one guilty of sin. Jesus didn't sin and therefore died as an innocent victim of unjustified suffering.
 
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Just because the NIV translates σάρξ as "sinful nature" in some places does not mean that's exactly what the word means in Greek. There's a bit of interpretation going on in the translation oftentimes. (And IMO the NIV is far from the best source for such inquiry anyway.)

When we make decisions according to our "σάρξ" for example, the implication is that they will be selfish, carnal, sinful ones. So the reading might be accurate in the translation, but you still can't use that to decide exactly what the word itself means in every case it's used.

Jesus Christ became incarnate in human flesh. It is important that we acknowledge that. But it wasn't "sinful" flesh. Adam and Eve, for example, were created without sin - Christ's human nature is analogous to human nature before the fall.

He understands how it feels to be hungry, tired, in pain emotionally and physically, because He has lived a life as a man. But that does not mean His flesh was sinful, nor would it have been necessary. In fact that's almost blasphemous - it would be a corruption of God Himself, if that were possible.
 
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W2L

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You're mistaken. Just being born with a sinful nature doesn't make one guilty of sin. Jesus didn't sin and therefore died as an innocent victim of unjustified suffering.
God is just. Jesus suffering was just. It was to pay for our sin.
 
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bcbsr

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God is just. Jesus suffering was just. It was to pay for our sin.

1Peter 2:19-21 For it is commendable if a man bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because he is conscious of God. But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God.To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.

1Peter 3:17,18 For it is better, if it is the will of God, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil. For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust

Acts 2:23 This man was handed over to you by God’s set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross." (I don't presume that God was one of those wicked men, do you?)

There are two arms of justice. One is to punish the wicked. The other is to compensate victims of unjustified suffering. The compensation Jesus received for his unjustified suffering paid for the sins of the world. This in contrast to those who assert that God pretended that Jesus was guilty of the sins of the world and poured wrath on him.

Ex 23:7 Keep yourself far from a false matter; do not kill the innocent and righteous. For I will not justify the wicked.
 
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W2L

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1Peter 2:19-21 For it is commendable if a man bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because he is conscious of God. But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God.To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.

1Peter 3:17,18 For it is better, if it is the will of God, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil. For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust

Acts 2:23 This man was handed over to you by God’s set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross." (I don't presume that God was one of those wicked men, do you?)

There are two arms of justice. One is to punish the wicked. The other is to compensate victims of unjustified suffering. The compensation Jesus received for his unjustified suffering paid for the sins of the world. This in contrast to those who assert that God pretended that Jesus was guilty of the sins of the world and poured wrath on him.

Ex 23:7 Keep yourself far from a false matter; do not kill the innocent and righteous. For I will not justify the wicked.
Im not saying Jesus was guilty, im just saying He paid the price that justice demanded because God is just.
 
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Dave L

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You're mistaken. Just being born with a sinful nature doesn't make one guilty of sin. Jesus didn't sin and therefore died as an innocent victim of unjustified suffering.
Babies die who never consciously sin. Because the wages of sin is death and they have sinful natures.
 
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Dave L

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Is one of the reasons we like to blame Adam and Eve for our "sinful nature" and say Christ did not have this same "nature" for us to feel if we did not have a "sinful nature" we could have kept from sinning?
If Christ had a sinful nature, he did not save anyone and he's still in the ground and in hell.
 
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Babies die who never consciously sin. Because the wages of sin is death and they have sinful natures.
Death is the result of Adam and Eve sinning and not some change in their nature, sin resulted in the cures of death (the payment). Some saints were taken up without dying so did they not sin?
 
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Dave L

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Death is the result of Adam and Eve sinning and not some change in their nature, sin resulted in the cures of death (the payment). Some saints were taken up without dying so did they not sin?
Christ paid for the sins of his people from the foundation of the world. Only these are saved.
“And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” (Revelation 13:8)
 
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Seems like the discussion kinda got off topic (which I thought was going to be about antiChrist). Too bad.
If I understand the OP, I think his concern was that folks may believe in an "antichrist" because they misunderstand exactly who Jesus is.

Which is a fair concern, but on the other hand, it is thankfully not intellectually perfect theology which saves us. I believe God is compassionate and will have mercy on those who have mistakes in understanding (which on some points at least must cover pretty much all of us ;) )

You could always start your own thread on the Antichrist if that's what you want to discuss. :)
 
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