Antichrist

[Serving Zion]

“Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:” (Romans 5:12)

Your doctrine is twisting two words in this verse: "passed upon" and "have sinned".

Accurate reading of scripture produces the understanding that babies are born without a tendency to sin, but that through the provocation and the teaching of the fallen world, the tendency to sin spreads upon them, eventually causing them to become dead in the spirit (Romans 7:9) and needing to be "born again" in the spirit (John 3:3, Mark 10:14).

It is also a logical truth that the ability to sin existed in Adam and Eve before the fall, otherwise they would not have been able to do sin. So nothing has changed in that way, only that now it is impossible to live without being impacted by the sin of the fallen world. As a result, our perfect sinless nature is disturbed (stolen) by our naively following the sinners who mislead us, and in this way, sin spreads to all.

OTOH, your doctrine produces the ultimate teaching that babies bring sin into the world and therefore it is forever doomed until a final day of destruction. That teaching is part of the delusion that would bring people into judgement for having "not loved the truth but rejoiced in wickedness" (John 10:10, 2 Peter 2:1-3, 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12), because it opposes Christ's work of redemption and restoration of the world (John 3:17).

“Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made [Greek = considered] sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made [Greek = considered] righteous.” (Romans 5:18–19)

A child who is without sin does not receive condemnation in judgement. It is only after a child has been made into a sinner that the judgement comes upon them. This is why a child's judgement is more accurate and righteous than a grown-up's, owing to the fact that they are still innocent in thought.

Your interpretation results in salvation by works. We are saved by Christ's imputed righteousness (not our own) just as we were lost by Adam's imputed unrighteousness (not our own).

The truth is that salvation is God's original intention and purpose, and that we lose that through the works of the flesh becoming sin (that is the wages of sin). If a person lived perfectly without sin, they would not be earning their salvation by their good works but rather holding fast to salvation by not doing the works of sin.

Infants who never consciously sin die because of Adam's imputed sin. The wages of sin is death.

No, in fact, they die because there is nobody there to heal them as Jesus would do! (John 11:23-25, Genesis 3:22, Revelation 2:7).

 

[Dave L]

Your doctrine is twisting two words in this verse: "passed upon" and "have sinned".

Accurate reading of scripture produces the understanding that babies are born without a tendency to sin, but that through the provocation and the teaching of the fallen world, the tendency to sin spreads upon them, eventually causing them to become dead in the spirit (Romans 7:9) and needing to be "born again" in the spirit (John 3:3, Mark 10:14).

It is also a logical truth that the ability to sin existed in Adam and Eve before the fall, otherwise they would not have been able to do sin. So nothing has changed in that way, only that now it is impossible to live without being impacted by the sin of the fallen world. As a result, our perfect sinless nature is disturbed (stolen) by our naively following the sinners who mislead us, and in this way, sin spreads to all.

OTOH, your doctrine produces the ultimate teaching that babies bring sin into the world and therefore it is forever doomed until a final day of destruction. That teaching is part of the delusion that would bring people into judgement for having "not loved the truth but rejoiced in wickedness" (John 10:10, 2 Peter 2:1-3, 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12), because it opposes Christ's work of redemption and restoration of the world (John 3:17).

A child who is without sin does not receive condemnation in judgement. It is only after a child has been made into a sinner that the judgement comes upon them. This is why a child's judgement is more accurate and righteous than a grown-up's, owing to the fact that they are still innocent in thought.

The truth is that salvation is God's original intention and purpose, and that we lose that through the works of the flesh becoming sin (that is the wages of sin). If a person lived perfectly without sin, they would not be earning their salvation by their good works but rather holding fast to salvation by not doing the works of sin.

No, in fact, they die because there is nobody there to heal them as Jesus would do! (John 11:23-25, Genesis 3:22, Revelation 2:7).

If there are none righteous, would't this include babies in the womb too?

 

[2tim_215]

If there are none righteous, would't this include babies in the womb too?

Yep. When a baby is born, they are not in a position to accept or reject Jesus or to make moral decisions yet and this is not a factor in their salvation until they reach the age of accountability. We're actually born under sin, not a pleasant thought, but true nonetheless.

 

[Dave L]

Yep. When a baby is born, they are not in a position to accept or reject Jesus or to make moral decisions yet and this is not a factor in their salvation until they reach the age of accountability. We're actually born under sin, not a pleasant thought, but true nonetheless.

Is abortion a good thing according to your view?

 

[2tim_215]

Is abortion a good thing according to your view?

As a Christian, heck no. Fortunately I believe (and hope) that those babies who are aborted either go straight to heaven or their souls are placed somewhere else (in a different parent).

 

[Dave L]

As a Christian, heck no. Fortunately I believe (and hope) that those babies who are aborted either go straight to heaven or their souls are placed somewhere else (in a different parent).

If the wages of sin is death, are babies who die sinners by nature? Is God unjust visiting death on them if they are innocent?

 

[NW82]

You're mistaken. Just being born with a sinful nature doesn't make one guilty of sin. Jesus didn't sin and therefore died as an innocent victim of unjustified suffering.

Romans 3:23 indicates that your view may not be correct, as it relates to human beings. Christ of course was God incarnate and therefore could not have sin.

 

[bcbsr]

Romans 3:23 indicates that your view may not be correct, as it relates to human beings. Christ of course was God incarnate and therefore could not have sin.

Rom 3:23 is talking about committing acts of sin. It's not talking about being born with a sinful nature.

 

[NW82]

Rom 3:23 is talking about committing acts of sin. It's not talking about being born with a sinful nature.

Correct. Are you saying that humans, being born with a sin nature, are capable of living sinless? Because scripture teaches, specifically, that Christ did it; no where in scripture does it say anyone else has. If your position is that a human can be sinless from birth, where is your scriptural backing for this?

 

[2tim_215]

Correct. Are you saying that humans, being born with a sin nature, are capable of living sinless? Because scripture teaches, specifically, that Christ did it; no where in scripture does it say anyone else has. If your position is that a human can be sinless from birth, where is your scriptural backing for this?

After David's firstborn died, he says he'll see him again.
2 Samuel 12:16-18 (KJV)
16 David therefore besought God for the child; and David fasted, and went in, and lay all night upon the earth.
17 And the elders of his house arose, and went to him, to raise him up from the earth: but he would not, neither did he eat bread with them.
18 And it came to pass on the seventh day, that the child died. And the servants of David feared to tell him that the child was dead: for they said, Behold, while the child was yet alive, we spake unto him, and he would not hearken unto our voice: how will he then vex himself, if we tell him that the child is dead?

2 Samuel 12:22-23 (KJV)
22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?
23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.
David apparently expected to see him again, although not in this life.
James tells us how we sin:
James 1:14-16 (KJV)
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
A baby cannot lust or be tempted.

 

[NW82]

After David's firstborn died, he says he'll see him again.
2 Samuel 12:16-18 (KJV)
16 David therefore besought God for the child; and David fasted, and went in, and lay all night upon the earth.
17 And the elders of his house arose, and went to him, to raise him up from the earth: but he would not, neither did he eat bread with them.
18 And it came to pass on the seventh day, that the child died. And the servants of David feared to tell him that the child was dead: for they said, Behold, while the child was yet alive, we spake unto him, and he would not hearken unto our voice: how will he then vex himself, if we tell him that the child is dead?

2 Samuel 12:22-23 (KJV)
22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?
23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.
David apparently expected to see him again, although not in this life.
James tells us how we sin:
James 1:14-16 (KJV)
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
A baby cannot lust or be tempted.

Agreed. To clarify I'm not talking about a baby. I'm talking about human beings, who know the difference between right and wrong. A baby clearly doesn't.

 

[2tim_215]

Agreed. To clarify I'm not talking about a baby. I'm talking about human beings, who know the difference between right and wrong. A baby clearly doesn't.

A just God (which I believe He is) would never punish a baby, who doesn't even know what sin is. Now an adult, that may be a different story. Sin becomes pretty obvious when you're an adult.

 

[Serving Zion]

If there are none righteous, would't this include babies in the womb too?

Could you provide the scripture you have in mind? It doesn't seem consistent with 2 Peter 2:11 and Psalms 11:5, as an example that there are some people who are in fact recognised as righteous.

 

[hedrick]

Could you provide the scripture you have in mind? It doesn't seem consistent with 2 Peter 2:11 and Psalms 11:5, as an example that there are some people who are in fact recognised as righteous.

Yes, this is the problem in understanding Rom 3:10. The Bible refers to plenty of people as righteous. But in normal usage righteousness isn't moral perfection, but living as God wants, which means having faith, and repenting when necessary. In Paul the term normally means being accepted by God.

So what's special about the context in Rom 3:10? Paul is arguing against those who would base our status before God on works of the Law. His argument is that if we're judged on works, no one would be justified. He's arguing against a concept of righteousness which he rejects. That concept, he says, would ultimately require moral perfection. Of course judged in that way no one would pass. Hence by that definition, no one is or could be righteous. But that's not the normal way we define righteousness, and it's also not the way God treats us. Because of course Paul's opponents were wrong.

God never expected us to be (and I would argue, never designed us to be) perfect. But he does expect us to care about the impact of what we do, and to repent when we realize we've done something wrong. He always intended to treat us with grace.

Paul quotes Ps 14 // 53. There is also a special context to that, though a different one from Romans. The Psalmist is talking about fools who reject God. I think it's clear that they were using hyperbole when they said there is no one righteous. There were being overwhelmed by such people, and couldn't see anyone else. But it's hard to believe that they intended to say as a matter of doctrine that no human ever had faith in God. Paul is using the passage creatively, but that's common in NT use of the OT.

 

[2tim_215]

Even though works do not save us, they do serve to justify us (see James). Being in Christ alone justifies us before God. However, it is our works which justify us before men (see James 2:14-26).

 

[Dave L]

Could you provide the scripture you have in mind? It doesn't seem consistent with 2 Peter 2:11 and Psalms 11:5, as an example that there are some people who are in fact recognised as righteous.

Here is the substance of all people before the New Birth:

“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Here is the substance of all people with the New Birth:

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.” (Galatians 5:19–23)

 

[Serving Zion]

Yes, this is the problem in understanding Rom 3:10. The Bible refers to plenty of people as righteous. But in normal usage righteousness isn't moral perfection, but living as God wants, which means having faith, and repenting when necessary.

This is, in fact, the way that a healthy child lives! .. This is why Jesus said we need to turn and become again as a little child, having the obedience and trust toward God as our Heavenly Father, otherwise to be put to death by sin (Romans 7:9).

But to say that Romans 3 should be used to suggest a baby is born as a sinner, that's not what St Paul is saying through it. He is showing that although the Torah was given to the Jews, that they should know that it teaches righteousness, they cannot be justified by it because even those who keep Torah while rejecting Jesus Christ become more unrighteous than the Gentiles who receive Christ though being ignorant of Torah.

In Paul the term normally means being accepted by God.

So what's special about the context in Rom 3:10? Paul is arguing against those who would base our status before God on works of the Law. His argument is that if we're judged on works, no one would be justified. He's arguing against a concept of righteousness which he rejects. That concept, he says, would ultimately require moral perfection. Of course judged in that way no one would pass.

That argument wouldn't really work for the purpose of this topic though, seeing as a baby in a perfect world would not be inclined to immorality.

Hence by that definition, no one is or could be righteous. But that's not the normal way we define righteousness, and it's also not the way God treats us. Because of course Paul's opponents were wrong.

God never expected us to be (and I would argue, never designed us to be) perfect.

I don't agree with this, fwiw.

But he does expect us to care about the impact of what we do, and to repent when we realize we've done something wrong. He always intended to treat us with grace.

That is simply the nature of love!

Paul quotes Ps 14 // 53. There is also a special context to that, though a different one from Romans. The Psalmist is talking about fools who reject God. I think it's clear that they were using hyperbole when they said there is no one righteous. There were being overwhelmed by such people, and couldn't see anyone else. But it's hard to believe that they intended to say as a matter of doctrine that no human ever had faith in God. Paul is using the passage creatively, but that's common in NT use of the OT.

Yes. To bring the passage in context, particularly important to view the words in Psalms 53:3 "turned" and "been corrupted", because it emphasises further that there is something more we can do for the subsequent generations by being responsible for the corruption we are sowing into them.

This is why I hate the antichrist doctrine so much, it makes churches irresponsible to the extent of murdering children in God's name.

Here is the substance of all people before the New Birth:

“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Here is the substance of all people with the New Birth:

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.” (Galatians 5:19–23)

I don't agree with your belief that children are carnal by default. I do in fact observe that their ability to demonstrate the fruit of the spirit is by nature and without hesitation in the right company, while there is always some provocation by a sinner in order for the fruits of the flesh to be manifested.

 

[Dave L]

This is, in fact, the way that a healthy child lives! .. This is why Jesus said we need to turn and become again as a little child, having the obedience and trust toward God as our Heavenly Father, otherwise to be put to death by sin (Romans 7:9).

But to say that Romans 3 should be used to suggest a baby is born as a sinner, that's not what St Paul is saying through it. He is showing that although the Torah was given to the Jews, that they should know that it teaches righteousness, they cannot be justified by it because even those who keep Torah while rejecting Jesus Christ become more unrighteous than the Gentiles who receive Christ though being ignorant of Torah.

That argument wouldn't really work for the purpose of this topic though, seeing as a baby in a perfect world would not be inclined to immorality.

I don't agree with this, fwiw.

That is simply the nature of love!

Yes. To bring the passage in context, particularly important to view the words in Psalms 53:3 "turned" and "been corrupted", because it emphasises further that there is something more we can do for the subsequent generations by being responsible for the corruption we are sowing into them.

This is why I hate the antichrist doctrine so much, it makes churches irresponsible to the extent of murdering children in God's name.

I don't agree with your belief that children are carnal by default. I do in fact observe that their ability to demonstrate the fruit of the spirit is by nature and without hesitation in the right company, while there is always some provocation by a sinner in order for the fruits of the flesh to be manifested.

The wages of sin is death, and babies die in the womb.

 

[Serving Zion]

The wages of sin is death, and babies die in the womb.

The word used to describe the recompense for sin translates as "wages" in English, and contains an implied meaning that death has been earned by the sin. I wonder what sin you believe a child commits while in womb that makes death a just reward.

 

[Dave L]

The word used to describe the recompense for sin translates as "wages" in English, and contains an implied meaning that death has been earned by the sin. I wonder what sin you believe a child commits while in womb that makes death a just reward.

God imputed Adam's sin to all of his children. Adam represented us. This is the same way God imputed Jesus' righteousness to all his children.
“For as by one man’s disobedience many were made [considered] sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made [considered] righteous.” (Romans 5:19)

“For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted [considered] unto him for righteousness.” (Romans 4:3)