Another thread titled questions lol

[ElPaddy]

Hi there,
First off sorry if these questions have been answered in previous posts but I wanted to have some direct back and forth in a new thread as I will no doubt be posting replies.

I used to be a Christian for around 3 years I also studied a bit of theology at university and some Christian run classes through a variety of churches and community efforts so Im relatively well versed in Christianity (obviously don’t have the life experience but down thou :S). My reasons for leaving the faith was due to the issues I had with it on a philosophical/ethical level, e.g. I believe in unconditional forgiveness from all sin, I don’t believe a loving god could create Hell, etc.

Throughout my time as a Christian I found most of the really hard questions are left unanswered by and large and you are normally left with the phrase “learn to live with the questions” (I’m sure most of you are familiar with the phrase ).
As Christians you’re taught that God has a genuine influence on your life, and that you are guided by him, your rock. As a Christian your aren’t just given the rules and the general idea of what to do and sent on your merry way, you have a direct line to God and you receive genuine direction. If that’s the case then why has Christianity changed so much throughout its history, it would seem that every 100 years (in some cases less) the entire face of Christianity changes, both culturally and theologically. I do wonder what the medieval day Christians would have thought about modern day Christians. Although the bible has remained (mainly) the same Christian culture and its interpretation of the bible hasn’t.

If God is guiding you then why would today’s Christians be any different from the Christians of the past, there are some pretty huge moral differences between them. Just a small example would be stoning's, inquisition, burning at the stake, etc. By today’s standards any of those things would be considered sinful regardless of the people’s sins its spelt out pretty clear in the bible that judgement is Gods job. So why given that Christians throughout history have had God as there shepard, guide, friend have they changed so dramatically, that something that is so clearly sin was a huge normality in Christian society seems to suggest there was little invention from God as far as guidance is concerned. I appreciate that Christianity is going to be different across different cultures all religion is malleable to a certain extent but by and large it should be pretty static in its norms and beliefs. The closest modern day example of what the original Christians where like would be something akin to the Taliban rule in Afganistan (i mean no insult in this but they are a very similar culture to what original Christians and the middle east at large was like in Jesus and Pauls time, so its a good example as they are now considered completely immoral by western society).

So why the change if God is your guide?

Thanks in advance for any replies, on a side note these forums are really great im quite enjoying hauling through them.

 

[ephraimanesti]

Hi there,
First off sorry if these questions have been answered in previous posts but I wanted to have some direct back and forth in a new thread as I will no doubt be posting replies.

I used to be a Christian for around 3 years I also studied a bit of theology at university and some Christian run classes through a variety of churches and community efforts so Im relatively well versed in Christianity (obviously don’t have the life experience but down thou :S). My reasons for leaving the faith was due to the issues I had with it on a philosophical/ethical level, e.g. I believe in unconditional forgiveness from all sin, I don’t believe a loving god could create Hell, etc.

Throughout my time as a Christian I found most of the really hard questions are left unanswered by and large and you are normally left with the phrase “learn to live with the questions” (I’m sure most of you are familiar with the phrase ).
As Christians you’re taught that God has a genuine influence on your life, and that you are guided by him, your rock. As a Christian your aren’t just given the rules and the general idea of what to do and sent on your merry way, you have a direct line to God and you receive genuine direction. If that’s the case then why has Christianity changed so much throughout its history, it would seem that every 100 years (in some cases less) the entire face of Christianity changes, both culturally and theologically. I do wonder what the medieval day Christians would have thought about modern day Christians. Although the bible has remained (mainly) the same Christian culture and its interpretation of the bible hasn’t.

If God is guiding you then why would today’s Christians be any different from the Christians of the past, there are some pretty huge moral differences between them. Just a small example would be stoning's, inquisition, burning at the stake, etc. By today’s standards any of those things would be considered sinful regardless of the people’s sins its spelt out pretty clear in the bible that judgement is Gods job. So why given that Christians throughout history have had God as there shepard, guide, friend have they changed so dramatically, that something that is so clearly sin was a huge normality in Christian society seems to suggest there was little invention from God as far as guidance is concerned. I appreciate that Christianity is going to be different across different cultures all religion is malleable to a certain extent but by and large it should be pretty static in its norms and beliefs. The closest modern day example of what the original Christians where like would be something akin to the Taliban rule in Afganistan (i mean no insult in this but they are a very similar culture to what original Christians and the middle east at large was like in Jesus and Pauls time, so its a good example as they are now considered completely immoral by western society).

So why the change if God is your guide?

Thanks in advance for any replies, on a side note these forums are really great im quite enjoying hauling through them.

MY FRIEND,

To compare Christianity with the Taliban indicates abismal ignorance of the topic you are attempting to defame.

The book of Acts chronicles in great detail what the early Christians were like. Please cite, if you would, one passage or even a partial passage which would cause a rational person to see any vague similarity between the Early Christians and the Taliban.

There is no difference between the early Christians and 21st Century Christians. However, the majority of those--obviously including yourself with your "studied a bit of theology" "experience" with the faith--are not Christians in the Biblical sense of the term--which implies and Face to face relationship with our Lord and a meticulous keeping of His teaching and commandments. They are poseurs and about as far from "Christ-like" (the definition of Christian) as can be imagined.

When seeking to define who is "a Christian" a good rule of thumb remains--WWJD. Would Jesus be involved in the acts of those who claim to be Christians and yet are acting in direct contraction to Jesus' teachings and the life He lived. As i am sure you are well aware, there is, in reality, no such thing as de-conversion--there are merely unconverted bystanders.

In the future, if you have "questions" to ask--make them meaningful.

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

 

[razeontherock]

I can find some meaning in some of this:

My reasons for leaving the faith was due to the issues I had with it on a philosophical/ethical level

Ok, and I think you certainly raised at least some of that:

Just a small example would be stoning's, inquisition, burning at the stake ... So why given that Christians throughout history have had God as there shepard, guide, friend have they changed so dramatically, that something that is so clearly sin was a huge normality in Christian society seems to suggest there was little intervention from God as far as guidance is concerned.

Noticing the part I bolded, do you see how you answered your own question?
Stoning is easy to dismiss; Christians never did that. The Inquisition? Yeah, that's made it very difficult for me to even tolerate anything even remotely resembling Catholicism. While some good people here have been helping me get over that, nobody pretends the Inquisition ever had anything to do w/ God's guidance, Biblical practice, or Christianity in anything other than the name only poseur stuff Ephraimanesti already spelled out. The same goes for burning at the stake and probably 1,000's of other examples of you really wanted to dig.

So that part of your philosophical / ethical problems w/ Christianity seem to be solved, eh? People are people. We're all subject to the same batch of problems, and "religion" has always been a prime place for the worst of humanity to flourish, trying to disguise itself as something else. This is what makes the type of relationships within the Church as described in the Bible so important! Not that it keeps that from happening, on the contrary; it flushes all that nonsense to the surface, in an environment where it can be recognized and dealt with. I'm guessing your 3 years didn't include much of that?

Throughout my time as a Christian I found most of the really hard questions are left unanswered by and large and you are normally left with the phrase “learn to live with the questions” (I’m sure most of you are familiar with the phrase ).

Nope In fact the first question I ever had that a Teacher simply could NOT answer, I was 4 years old, in a Sunday school class with kids as old as 6th grade. The only reason I was in the room is the Teacher was my Mom, and she had no other way to take care of me that morning. She was NOT at all happy with me! But she did score major points in my eyes when after consulting w/ her assistant, the 2 of them finally admitted (after much probing on my part) that they really didn't know. I didn't like that, but I respected it. I had forgotten all about that question re: Balaam until just recently, 40+ years later when G-d gave me the answer. Now that is a long time coming, but what else did I need to learn in the meantime before I could understand His answer? Guaranteed the reason it took me so long to learn all that is NOT His fault!

I would say G-d has been VERY good about answering my questions, usually PDQ.

e.g. I believe in unconditional forgiveness from all sin, I don’t believe a loving god could create Hell, etc.

I don't know what your etc refers to, but the other poster in this thread is Orthodox (EO) and their concept of hell is MUCH different than probably anything you've ever heard. I'm not sure how it might (or might not) differ on the subject of G-d actually creating hell, but ALL Christians are to know it was never intended for people. When you understand the awfulness of fallen angels you realize creating a "prison" for them to keep them away from US, is actually a very loving thing to do. An even bigger concept you may have missed, is the fact that no redemption is possible for these incorporeal beings. This highlights how wondrous it is that we CAN be redeemed

That's not something to be taken for granted!

Hebrews 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation?"


If you want answers, we'll really be able to help, on most topics. If you don't want it straight, you probably won't like me much. Unconditional forgiveness of all sin? You mean like if I had $165,000.00 cash in my back pocket and my neighbor tried taking it in broad daylight, I'm supposed to be all "oh, ok - I forgive you?" I think he could expect more than just a stiff rebuke. Forgiveness under what circumstances? Well it's not cash he's trying to steal, but land rights from the whole neighborhood, equaling about that sum. I can guarantee you he's going to experience nothing but a VERY hard way to go from me, until he stops doing the wrong thing and starts doing the right thing. I owe that to my neighbors.

Please think that through. Forgiveness is a pretty amazing thing, regardless what conditions are placed on it. If it comes at the expense of justice, somebody's left with a big problem. Our outreach section has been filled with people thinking they know better than G-d how to sort all this out, but I haven't seen anybody even consider all the variables, let alone concoct a solution

Oh, and welcome to CF

 

[zaksmummy]

If you want to know how Christians in the 1st centuary lived then you need to look at Jewish sources, they were after all Jews! The Talmud is a good place to start, and you will find that rather unlike the Taliban, Jewish women of that time were highly regarded and respected and had more rights than say, Roman women.

Also God has given us a set of instructions, you will find it in the Old Testament, Christians call it the Law, Jews call it the Torah, which means "instruction". It is however, not "do this or else" despite how it is portrayed, again a look at the Talmud shows that it was excecuted with compassion, two rabbis agreed that "any sanhedren (law court) who puts a person to death once in seventy years is murderous". Often the point of Gods instructions was to encourage the person reading to consider their own behaviour so that there would be no need for the punishments.

One that note, God did not make us to be robots, and he also gave us a conscience, when we are following Gods instructions it is a good tool when we stray from the path. One thing I have learned is that God likes us to ask questions, when we ask him questions what we are actually doing is cultivating a relationship with him. He doesnt always answer than as we would like, but then he is God and ultimately he knows what is best for us and will work for our good.

 

[oi_antz]

I believe in unconditional forgiveness from all sin, I don’t believe a loving god could create Hell, etc.

I just have one comment to make about this, that perhaps you don't realize just how evil evil really is. If you ever come to comprehend the extreme of Satan's evil then you will definitely understand why Hell exists. I'm one of those who believes that Jesus has every right to judge a person due to their sins, and that our time here is intended for us to learn how to please God intead of protesting Him and contributing to the collective evil demonstrated by a certain proportion of the world. Don't overlook the blessed offer of forgiveness, that when we are ready to come to our senses and really behave as "good" as we are able (this is called repentance), that Jesus is willing and even eager to wipe away our sins and take us under His wing so we will not be subjected to the condemnation that awaits those who propagate the atrocities of evil.

 

[E.C.]

Hi there,
First off sorry if these questions have been answered in previous posts but I wanted to have some direct back and forth in a new thread as I will no doubt be posting replies.

I used to be a Christian for around 3 years I also studied a bit of theology at university and some Christian run classes through a variety of churches and community efforts so Im relatively well versed in Christianity (obviously don’t have the life experience but down thou :S). My reasons for leaving the faith was due to the issues I had with it on a philosophical/ethical level, e.g. I believe in unconditional forgiveness from all sin, I don’t believe a loving god could create Hell, etc.

Throughout my time as a Christian I found most of the really hard questions are left unanswered by and large and you are normally left with the phrase “learn to live with the questions” (I’m sure most of you are familiar with the phrase ).
As Christians you’re taught that God has a genuine influence on your life, and that you are guided by him, your rock. As a Christian your aren’t just given the rules and the general idea of what to do and sent on your merry way, you have a direct line to God and you receive genuine direction. If that’s the case then why has Christianity changed so much throughout its history, it would seem that every 100 years (in some cases less) the entire face of Christianity changes, both culturally and theologically. I do wonder what the medieval day Christians would have thought about modern day Christians. Although the bible has remained (mainly) the same Christian culture and its interpretation of the bible hasn’t.

If God is guiding you then why would today’s Christians be any different from the Christians of the past, there are some pretty huge moral differences between them. Just a small example would be stoning's, inquisition, burning at the stake, etc. By today’s standards any of those things would be considered sinful regardless of the people’s sins its spelt out pretty clear in the bible that judgement is Gods job. So why given that Christians throughout history have had God as there shepard, guide, friend have they changed so dramatically, that something that is so clearly sin was a huge normality in Christian society seems to suggest there was little invention from God as far as guidance is concerned. I appreciate that Christianity is going to be different across different cultures all religion is malleable to a certain extent but by and large it should be pretty static in its norms and beliefs. The closest modern day example of what the original Christians where like would be something akin to the Taliban rule in Afganistan (i mean no insult in this but they are a very similar culture to what original Christians and the middle east at large was like in Jesus and Pauls time, so its a good example as they are now considered completely immoral by western society).

So why the change if God is your guide?

Thanks in advance for any replies, on a side note these forums are really great im quite enjoying hauling through them.

Because people go only to the Bible for guidance and not *gasp* extra-biblical sources such as Ecumenical Councils, Creeds, writings of Church Fathers, etc.

Another problem is that people listen to themselves far too much.

Read up on history from all points of view be they from Protestantism, Catholicism or Orthodoxy.


Might I ask, what is your Christian background in a nutshell?

 

[salida]

Hi there,
First off sorry if these questions have been answered in previous posts but I wanted to have some direct back and forth in a new thread as I will no doubt be posting replies.

I used to be a Christian for around 3 years I also studied a bit of theology at university and some Christian run classes through a variety of churches and community efforts so Im relatively well versed in Christianity (obviously don’t have the life experience but down thou :S). My reasons for leaving the faith was due to the issues I had with it on a philosophical/ethical level, e.g. I believe in unconditional forgiveness from all sin, I don’t believe a loving god could create Hell, etc.

Throughout my time as a Christian I found most of the really hard questions are left unanswered by and large and you are normally left with the phrase “learn to live with the questions” (I’m sure most of you are familiar with the phrase ).
As Christians you’re taught that God has a genuine influence on your life, and that you are guided by him, your rock. As a Christian your aren’t just given the rules and the general idea of what to do and sent on your merry way, you have a direct line to God and you receive genuine direction. If that’s the case then why has Christianity changed so much throughout its history, it would seem that every 100 years (in some cases less) the entire face of Christianity changes, both culturally and theologically. I do wonder what the medieval day Christians would have thought about modern day Christians. Although the bible has remained (mainly) the same Christian culture and its interpretation of the bible hasn’t.

If God is guiding you then why would today’s Christians be any different from the Christians of the past, there are some pretty huge moral differences between them. Just a small example would be stoning's, inquisition, burning at the stake, etc. By today’s standards any of those things would be considered sinful regardless of the people’s sins its spelt out pretty clear in the bible that judgement is Gods job. So why given that Christians throughout history have had God as there shepard, guide, friend have they changed so dramatically, that something that is so clearly sin was a huge normality in Christian society seems to suggest there was little invention from God as far as guidance is concerned. I appreciate that Christianity is going to be different across different cultures all religion is malleable to a certain extent but by and large it should be pretty static in its norms and beliefs. The closest modern day example of what the original Christians where like would be something akin to the Taliban rule in Afganistan (i mean no insult in this but they are a very similar culture to what original Christians and the middle east at large was like in Jesus and Pauls time, so its a good example as they are now considered completely immoral by western society).

So why the change if God is your guide?

Thanks in advance for any replies, on a side note these forums are really great im quite enjoying hauling through them.

I don't know what you mean when you say christians have changed? There is a difference in real christians and christians in name only. Also, the church should be changing the culture but some churches have let the culture change them. It seems like your looking at those who are in this world with a christian label on it. They don't represent those who are truly committed to God but they are lukewarm ones.

 

[salida]

Comparing christians to the Taliban is like comparing a tree to a zebra.

 

[drich0150]

My reasons for leaving the faith was due to the issues I had with it on a philosophical/ethical level, e.g. I believe in unconditional forgiveness from all sin, I don’t believe a loving god could create Hell, etc.

Hell is the absence of God. How could God be considered "Righteous" if all those who have spent their live putting distance between themselves and God, were forced to live out eternity with Him?

As a Christian your aren’t just given the rules and the general idea of what to do and sent on your merry way, you have a direct line to God and you receive genuine direction. If that’s the case then why has Christianity changed so much throughout its history, it would seem that every 100 years (in some cases less) the entire face of Christianity changes, both culturally and theologically.

These Changes simply occur because the the culture changes. Christianity is not about a specific method of worship, although many have indoctrinated specific worship with in their systems of religion. Christianity, true Christianity is a relationship, and not an empty worship of observances and rights. This relationship like any relationship changes as people change and mature.

Out greatest command remains the same. We are to love our Lord God with all of our Hearts, Minds, Spirit and Strength, and the second is like it. We are to love our neighbor as ourselves. On these two commands all of the rest of Gods commands were built.

I do wonder what the medieval day Christians would have thought about modern day Christians. Although the bible has remained (mainly) the same Christian culture and its interpretation of the bible hasn’t.

That is why we were commanded to love God with all of our being rather commanded to love God through a specific method of worship. For example what may be a pure and complete form of love for a medieval Christian, may be empty and hollow for a man born in the 1970's. The focus here should be 100% worship and love given to God by each and every individual, and not empty adherence to religious rules and regulations. (This is what happened to the Pharisees of the OT.) They took the pure and holy word of God and watered it down till it meant nothing to anyone. God's word went from Holiness to empty religious observances in a few generations.
We have been given the freedom to change.

So why the change if God is your guide?

Because what we bind here on Earth will be bound for us in Heaven and what we loose here on earth will be loosed in Heaven. In other words, we change because we have the freedom to do so. We are changing from religion based faith (Legalism/working or earning our way to heaven) to understanding and accepting God's Grace.

 

[Sketcher]

To be honest, the more I read about Christian history, the more I'm struck at the similarity of the issues that the modern churches and the ancient churches faced. There are of course differences, but they're mainly political.

 

[solarwave]

Hi,

To let you know where I am comming from I used to be a evangelical charasmatic conservative Christian but in the last year I have been comming to a more liberal (People don't seem to like that word) understanding of Christianity.

I also have probems with medieval eternal hell of fire. I think anyone who really thinks of how long eternity is will be disgusted by the idea. But there are other things the Bible could be pointing towards than this interpretation.

Also as for why Christianity changes it would be because God is perfect but we are not.

For example the early Hebrews believed their God was the greatest god out of many and had rules about punishment by stoning. Then later on they believe only their God exists, have a more loving moral law and realise that God desires more than the blood of animals.

Then Jesus came with the full revelation of God which developed spirituality further, but still the Apostles were human and didn't understand the fullness of the love of God, which is shown in some things in the NT we don't follow today anyway.

It could be said that we are still trying to come to a fuller revelation of God, drawing closer to the truth. So Christianity is developing in truth and morals.

I accept I could be wrong, and most of this reasoning comes from the philosopher, theologian and vicar Keith Ward.

 

[singpeace]

I can find some meaning in some of this:



Ok, and I think you certainly raised at least some of that:



Noticing the part I bolded, do you see how you answered your own question?
Stoning is easy to dismiss; Christians never did that. The Inquisition? Yeah, that's made it very difficult for me to even tolerate anything even remotely resembling Catholicism. While some good people here have been helping me get over that, nobody pretends the Inquisition ever had anything to do w/ God's guidance, Biblical practice, or Christianity in anything other than the name only poseur stuff Ephraimanesti already spelled out. The same goes for burning at the stake and probably 1,000's of other examples of you really wanted to dig.

So that part of your philosophical / ethical problems w/ Christianity seem to be solved, eh? People are people. We're all subject to the same batch of problems, and "religion" has always been a prime place for the worst of humanity to flourish, trying to disguise itself as something else. This is what makes the type of relationships within the Church as described in the Bible so important! Not that it keeps that from happening, on the contrary; it flushes all that nonsense to the surface, in an environment where it can be recognized and dealt with. I'm guessing your 3 years didn't include much of that?



Nope In fact the first question I ever had that a Teacher simply could NOT answer, I was 4 years old, in a Sunday school class with kids as old as 6th grade. The only reason I was in the room is the Teacher was my Mom, and she had no other way to take care of me that morning. She was NOT at all happy with me! But she did score major points in my eyes when after consulting w/ her assistant, the 2 of them finally admitted (after much probing on my part) that they really didn't know. I didn't like that, but I respected it. I had forgotten all about that question re: Balaam until just recently, 40+ years later when G-d gave me the answer. Now that is a long time coming, but what else did I need to learn in the meantime before I could understand His answer? Guaranteed the reason it took me so long to learn all that is NOT His fault!

I would say G-d has been VERY good about answering my questions, usually PDQ.



I don't know what your etc refers to, but the other poster in this thread is Orthodox (EO) and their concept of hell is MUCH different than probably anything you've ever heard. I'm not sure how it might (or might not) differ on the subject of G-d actually creating hell, but ALL Christians are to know it was never intended for people. When you understand the awfulness of fallen angels you realize creating a "prison" for them to keep them away from US, is actually a very loving thing to do. An even bigger concept you may have missed, is the fact that no redemption is possible for these incorporeal beings. This highlights how wondrous it is that we CAN be redeemed

That's not something to be taken for granted!

Hebrews 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation?"


If you want answers, we'll really be able to help, on most topics. If you don't want it straight, you probably won't like me much. Unconditional forgiveness of all sin? You mean like if I had $165,000.00 cash in my back pocket and my neighbor tried taking it in broad daylight, I'm supposed to be all "oh, ok - I forgive you?" I think he could expect more than just a stiff rebuke. Forgiveness under what circumstances? Well it's not cash he's trying to steal, but land rights from the whole neighborhood, equaling about that sum. I can guarantee you he's going to experience nothing but a VERY hard way to go from me, until he stops doing the wrong thing and starts doing the right thing. I owe that to my neighbors.

Please think that through. Forgiveness is a pretty amazing thing, regardless what conditions are placed on it. If it comes at the expense of justice, somebody's left with a big problem. Our outreach section has been filled with people thinking they know better than G-d how to sort all this out, but I haven't seen anybody even consider all the variables, let alone concoct a solution

Oh, and welcome to CF

GREAT ANSWER!