Annihilationism

[JonF]

SpiritDriven I think you need more context and less equivocation errors…

*Note one of those verses is speaking of glorifying God and the other is speaking of Salvation.

 

[SpiritDriven]

SpiritDriven I think you need more context and less equivocation errors…

*Note one of those verses is speaking of glorifying God and the other is speaking of Salvation.

equivication errors.... what an interesting pair of words !

God will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Timothy 2:4).

The Lord canst do all things, and that no purpose of His can be thwarted (Job 42:2).

Are you saying Gods will can be thwarted ?
Are you teaching that Gods Will can be thwarted ?

I am not here to win an arguement....the seed has been planted.

Grace and Peace to you all

 

[Magnusson]

Thanks Tall73 for a good summary of this topic.

Concerning: God will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Timothy 2:4).

In many places the Bible says that God doesn't want anyone to perish but the Bible also says that many will perish. Many will enter the wide gate that leads to destruction! So even though God wants people to come to repentance not everyone will.

This is a question about the character of God, if He is cruel and unjust and wants a universe that's filled with millions of people screaming in agony in flames or:

Revelation 21:4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.

Why on earth would God want a world full of pain and suffering when there is no need to?

 

[Jipsah]

Since this topic can now be freely discussed here I thought I would put up a (lengthy) summary of the data on this somewhat little understood topic.

Nicely researched, and I have nothing significant to add to it (this being one of the few areas in which you and I are in agreement). I think the dearth of coherent argument against your conclusions speaks volumes. You might have been better served to cut it up into smaller chunks, though.

Good work, amigo.

 

[tall73]

Hi Tall,
The passage is revelation 14 if you want to look at it in its context, iv`e tried to put it in context with a few verses around it but it might be good to check the whole chapter.
I agree that there are varying torments in hell, this appears to be what Jesus is teaching when he says "woe to you chorazin for if the works performed in you had been done in sodom and gommorah they would have repented in sackcloths and ashes..........on the day of judgement they will rise up and condemn you," however the above passage talks (IMO) clearly about those who will be tormented for ever, obviously if they cease to be......well they cannot be tormented.
What remains is whether those who are tormented eternally are the few, or whether it is all who do not accept Jesus Christ as Lord.


Mark

I addressed the text in the OP. You might want to critique the specifics. Here is the section that deals with it:



---------------------------
Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

If ever there were a text that supported the traditional view of hell in regard to the punishment of the wicked, this would be it. The terms used, “forever and ever,” “smoke of their torment”, etc., are not only disturbing but certainly suggestive of eternal torment.

But even here we see evidence that initial appearances are not the whole story. John makes frequent use of Old Testament imagery throughout the book of Revelation, with scholars seeing hundreds of allusions to the Old Testament and many to the New Testament and extra-biblical literature. These allusions are often key to understanding the text. For instance, many people see the in the seal of God (and by extension its opposite, the mark of the beast), an allusion to the vision of Ezekiel 8-10. Here Ezekiel sees false worship in the temple itself by the elders. Then he sees a vision of a man in linen who puts a mark on the forehead of all who “sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.” This vision of the faithful remnant, which John takes up extensively in Revelation, is a key to understanding the nature of the seal of God.

In the same way, John is here using language directly from the Old Testament to paint a gloomy picture.

First there is the reference to the cup of wrath. God spoke of His cup of wrath that he would make the nations drink. The “without mixture” part is a reference to the practice of thinning wine with water. This cup of wrath, however, would be undiluted wrath. Here is an example of an Old Testament passage speaking of this principle:

Isa 51:22 Thus saith thy Lord the LORD, and thy God that pleadeth the cause of his people, Behold, I have taken out of thine hand the cup of trembling, even the dregs of the cup of my fury; thou shalt no more drink it again: 23 But I will put it into the hand of them that afflict thee; which have said to thy soul, Bow down, that we may go over: and thou hast laid thy body as the ground, and as the street, to them that went over.

Jesus also was presented with this cup of God’s wrath, not for His own sins, but because of ours. He prayed that the cup would pass from Him, but He had to drink it for us to be saved. Jesus paid the price of death that we owed for sin.

Luk 22:41 And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed, 42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

Fire and brimstone is a possible reference to Sodom’s destruction, referenced often. But there is a more specific reference that matches much of the language of the passage:

Isa 34:8 For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion. 9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. 10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.

John has obviously drawn on this passage describing the overthrow of Edom to paint the picture of torment expected for those who take the mark of the beast. The Edomite land was overthrown. And yet the language is a bit poetic, as again it is the results that we see but not a continuing burning or continuing smoke, etc. It describes total destruction and barrenness.

The last phrase to be looked at is that there is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast. Some have even taken this to mean that this is not speaking of final punishment but of torment during the last days of earth’s history. Either way, it is certainly descriptive of the pain and torment involved in their fiery judgment.

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Here we see that the false trinity of Satan (the Dragon, chapter 12), the beast, and the false prophet (chapter 13) are placed in the lake of fire, where they are tormented. Again we see the use of the OT imagery, forever and ever. Part of the interpretation of the text depends on how the beast and false prophet are identified. Some see them as institutions, some as spiritual powers, some as individuals, etc.

Strangely, death and hell (Hades, the holding place of the dead) themselves are cast into the lake of fire as well, as this is the second death.

There is an Old Testament allusion contained in the description of the Beast’s demise, from Daniel 7. There we see a judgment scene and then the destruction of the beast as the Son receives the kingdom:

Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

Here we see the destruction of the beast described, with its body slain and given to burning flame. The other beasts were not killed at that time. This again points out that the fate of the beast, as with anything else in the lake of fire, is destruction.

The lake of fire is described as the second death, which seems to contrast with the torment forever and ever if these are taken literally. But if seen in the light of the Old Testament allusions of the total destruction of Edom, Sodom (eternal fire), etc., it makes sense.

 

[tall73]

I have not answered you, The Saints and the Apostles are answering you here....it is they that speak against your theology not me.... I just noticed what they are saying in comparison to what you are saying.

You are saying a person can reject Jesus

They are saying....

No one can come to Christ unless the Father who sent Him draws (Greek: drags) him (John 6:44)

No man should boast before God (1 Corinthians 1:29).
By His doing you are in Christ Jesus (1 Corinthians 1:30).

It does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy (Romans 9:16).

He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy (Titus 3:5).

Because Jesus was lifted up from the earth, He will draw (Greek: drag) all men to Himself (John 12:32).

Your disagreement is with the saints who came before us, and with the Apostles of Jesus Christ...not with me

If you won't reconcile the passages then apparently the saints are disagreeing with you too.

Suit yourself.

 

[tall73]

Nicely researched, and I have nothing significant to add to it (this being one of the few areas in which you and I are in agreement). I think the dearth of coherent argument against your conclusions speaks volumes. You might have been better served to cut it up into smaller chunks, though.

Good work, amigo.

And yet for all your disagreement with me you still can give a very nice compliment. Thanks!

God bless you brother.

As to smaller chunks...yup...a consistent issue for me.

 

[Jimlarmore]

Thanks Tall73,
I couldn't find a thing wrong with anything you put in your OP. I do have a question though. In the O.T. why didn't you use some of the other texts we find that clearly point to Annilhilation? Some of them in Isaiah are great.

It's kind of hard to refute the clear and awesome truth in the Bible. I used to believe in an immortal soul until I found out other wise in the Bible.

God Bless you brother
Jim Larmore

 

[brimac]

Tall, I too am a conditionalist and I appreciate your post! As I have studied this issue, it has become strongly apparent to me that the Bible fully supports your viewpoint on "Hell!" The problem however, is that tradition dies hard! I have debated this issue with many people, and despite the overwheming support from scripture, many who hear this message shutdown very quickly. I think that the key to beginning this discussion is in the question of man's innate immortality. God is fully dependent upon God for life.

I want to provide a hypothethical question! In my opinion the worst attrocity that a person can commit is to molest children! I want you to assume that you have a young daughter who has just been molested and killed! The man who did this terrible thing to her, falls into yours hands! Are you justified in:

1) killing him? Most people would say "no, leave it up to the authorities", but would understand your rage in such a situation!

2) Torturing him and then killing him? He probably deserves this fate, though most would say that it isnt your right to bring him to this fate!

3) Keeping him alive as long as possible in order to torture him for the rest of his life? I have never met a single person who could answer this question, "yes, I would be justified!" We, having been given the love of God in our hearts and know that it would be wrong. And yet, we attribute that same lack of love to God, who is Love!

Because the human soul is mortal, God must intentional keep a person's soul alive in order to fulfill the type of torment which is displayed in the traditional view of Hell. The traditional view of Hell changes the nature of God. He is the God of Love, and yes He is just, but He is not a sadist!

 

[tall73]

Thanks Tall73,
I couldn't find a thing wrong with anything you put in your OP. I do have a question though. In the O.T. why didn't you use some of the other texts we find that clearly point to Annilhilation? Some of them in Isaiah are great.

It's kind of hard to refute the clear and awesome truth in the Bible. I used to believe in an immortal soul until I found out other wise in the Bible.

God Bless you brother
Jim Larmore

Well, first off I quoted some of them in the dealing with NT texts. The main reason for this is that some of the OT texts are hard to pin down. They may be talking about final punishment or temporal punishment. I thought it best to deal with the clearest ones. If you have some to add please post them and I will consider it.

 

[Ben12]

Revelations is a book of symbolism; and is not literal. Yes there are literal Churches or assemblies; but there is a deep spiritual hidden message under the surface. Look closely at that first chapter and there are all kinds of foundations that establish revelations in this context. Many brother’s in the Lord try to spiritualize one part of Revelations, and then they will literalize another section when it fits their understanding; I see it totally as a spiritual book even when I am unsure of some of its meaning. Book of Revelations is the Revelation’s of Jesus Christ with in us; not without.

Revelations 1:1

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:​

This one little word is so reverent to the whole book Revelations; ‘signified” or signs and symbols. The Book Revelations can only be understood not as a book of prophecy, or literally; but as a very deep and awesome spiritual book by using signs and symbols that can only be found in the Bible.

I truly believe God’s Word is hidden for many reasons; that is why there are so many creed, religion and understandings in the Bible. If it were possible I believe if man could put the understandings in full understanding of the Book of Revelations in writing it would fill a library. When I see a symbol and apply to Revelations it needs to be used over and over again thought out the Bible; the lampstand is one small example: What an important symbol and I believe it has much to do with Isaiah 11:2 and the seven spirits of God that God has ordained to give us understanding.

The lampstand note the drawing I did in upper conner. The lamp stand was a piece of furniture that was in the Tabernacle in the wilderness as well as both temples. Like all the furniture in the temple there was always a much deeper and awesome meaning. I am just going to touch on a few thought I thought were interesting. So often God hides his glory from carnal man by types, shadows, parables, mysteries and hidden manna.

Lamp stand was made by beaten gold; that is the craftsman would literally beat the gold to desired shape. It takes heat and fire to purify many different precious metals; gold (Devine life); silver (redemption); brass (judgment); iron (will) and many other precious stones that are found in our earth; One Biblical exception is a pearl; the only jewel that comes from life.

1 Corinthians 3:15

If any man's work shall be burned, he shall
suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. ​

The lamp had seven staffs attached to one staff; symbolic of seven spirits of God in Isaiah 11:2; but one God. Isaiah 11:2. Fire comes from the Greek word “pur” which we get our English word pure, purify, purge and purgatory and is symbolic of the purging power of Holy Spirit.

Everyday the priest would have to immerse the lamp in olive oil (symbolic of God’s anointing) and light the lamp with fire.

Then the light was placed in the Holy Place for light. The first court or the outer court had no lamp but was lit by the sun by day; but at night there was no lamp. The Holy of Holies also had no lamp either; for God’s Glory would be all the light it needed on the day of atonement.

 

[Magnusson]

Great to see that the eternal torment doctrine isn't popular here. I feel it so distorts the character of God and makes the whole message of the Bible twisted and evil.

The message is that God will make things right and there will come a time when there will be no more evil, no more pain or suffering. That's a great message!

God Bless

 

[tall73]

Didn't you previously go by another name? I remember seeing some of your art in the member art section.

Revelations is a book of symbolism; and is not literal. Yes there are literal Churches or assemblies; but there is a deep spiritual hidden message under the surface. Look closely at that first chapter and there are all kinds of foundations that establish revelations in this context. Many brother’s in the Lord try to spiritualize one part of Revelations, and then they will literalize another section when it fits their understanding; I see it totally as a spiritual book even when I am unsure of some of its meaning. Book of Revelations is the Revelation’s of Jesus Christ with in us; not without.

Revelations 1:1

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:​

This one little word is so reverent to the whole book Revelations; ‘signified” or signs and symbols. The Book Revelations can only be understood not as a book of prophecy, or literally; but as a very deep and awesome spiritual book by using signs and symbols that can only be found in the Bible.

I truly believe God’s Word is hidden for many reasons; that is why there are so many creed, religion and understandings in the Bible. If it were possible I believe if man could put the understandings in full understanding of the Book of Revelations in writing it would fill a library. When I see a symbol and apply to Revelations it needs to be used over and over again thought out the Bible; the lampstand is one small example: What an important symbol and I believe it has much to do with Isaiah 11:2 and the seven spirits of God that God has ordained to give us understanding.

The lampstand note the drawing I did in upper conner. The lamp stand was a piece of furniture that was in the Tabernacle in the wilderness as well as both temples. Like all the furniture in the temple there was always a much deeper and awesome meaning. I am just going to touch on a few thought I thought were interesting. So often God hides his glory from carnal man by types, shadows, parables, mysteries and hidden manna.

Lamp stand was made by beaten gold; that is the craftsman would literally beat the gold to desired shape. It takes heat and fire to purify many different precious metals; gold (Devine life); silver (redemption); brass (judgment); iron (will) and many other precious stones that are found in our earth; One Biblical exception is a pearl; the only jewel that comes from life.

1 Corinthians 3:15

If any man's work shall be burned, he shall
suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. ​

The lamp had seven staffs attached to one staff; symbolic of seven spirits of God in Isaiah 11:2; but one God. Isaiah 11:2. Fire comes from the Greek word “pur” which we get our English word pure, purify, purge and purgatory and is symbolic of the purging power of Holy Spirit.

Everyday the priest would have to immerse the lamp in olive oil (symbolic of God’s anointing) and light the lamp with fire.

Then the light was placed in the Holy Place for light. The first court or the outer court had no lamp but was lit by the sun by day; but at night there was no lamp. The Holy of Holies also had no lamp either; for God’s Glory would be all the light it needed on the day of atonement.

 

[tall73]

Great to see that the eternal torment doctrine isn't popular here. I feel it so distorts the character of God and makes the whole message of the Bible twisted and evil.

The message is that God will make things right and there will come a time when there will be no more evil, no more pain or suffering. That's a great message!

God Bless

Amen! A wonderful message. God doesn't quarantine evil but makes it no more.

 

[brimac]

The doctine of eternal Hell has too long tainted the Character of God, making Him appear to be a sadist. He is a loving God and His wisdom is displayed wonderfully in the truth of conditional immortality!

 

[Ben12]

Amen! A wonderful message. God doesn't quarantine evil but makes it no more.

Evil will end when God has no more need for it.


Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the
LORD do all these things.

Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid?
shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? (KJV)

 

[Tonks]

Tall - can you send me that long bit that you wrote regarding this topic? PM me and I'll send you my email.

 

[tall73]

Lol, the original post IS the long bit. I stuck all 37 pages right in there.

Ah the beauty of site support!

Right now it just looks at the biblical texts. I am hoping next to analyze other contemporary or near contemporary Greek sources to see similarities or differences with the biblical language.

For instance, the Sadducees rejected any resurrection or the life to come. They therefore represent a close parallel to the idea of eternal death of the wicked. If the language they use is similar then that would go a long ways to settling the dispute on some of the terms.

Unfortunately we only get their writings second-hand. Josephus has a quote or two that are somewhat good, but there are not exact parallels to the biblical language that I can fine. There is one possible cognate used but I need more info on the Greek phrase. Perhaps I should ask one of the Orthodox who speak Greek. They are often helpful.

I also plan to look at Socrates' Phaedo which is an extended discourse on the immortality of the soul. It is an earlier period but the philosophers of the day continued the debate for years and years. I believe the Epicureans also rejected the afterlife, and therefore their use of the terms could be another parallel.

That may take a while and I need to expand my Greek capabilities and get some help with it.

I also plan to read more of the church fathers on the subject. I have read characterizations of their views, but I want to read the original materials. Right now I am going through Augustine's City of God book 21 on eternal punishment of the wicked.

 

[SpiritDriven]

The doctine of eternal Hell has too long tainted the Character of God, making Him appear to be a sadist. He is a loving God and His wisdom is displayed wonderfully in the truth of conditional immortality!

There is no such thing as conditional immortality with God.
Nobody comes to Christ unless drawn by the Father who sent him....anybody truly called never rejects it...they may not always behave like a christian, but that facet of our nature was accounted for at the Cross.

Also we all have a bit of Gods spirit joined to flesh, that is why we live....we all come from God.

I think what a lot of people mis understand is that God is smart enough to get everybody to choose him in the end.

To be in his presence is to not want to leave it...even the most evil God hating person in the world changes their mind almost instantly when in the presence of God....there is no choosing against God in the end.

God knows this....and so do all too few of us down through the ages, I could quote a lot of scripture to support this view.....but it could never describe adequatley what it is like to actualy know...that nobody can resist his will.

Saul of Tarsus was a little insight given to us....but it still does not adequatley describe....that nobody can resist his will.

Not even Satan..... Satan was created by God to do as he does....he is a tool, his will is not his own, just as our will is not our own.

We cannot even begin to understand what free will really is....such is the highness of Gods ways.

All Honor Power and Glory be to God!

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Good Work tall

I think the doctrine of eternal torment is just horrible. It turns people from Christ.