Annihilationism

[Timothew]

...wow you people are lost as sin: Here is the plain and blunt proof that Hell is eternal torment and that annihilationism is heresy.

Jude 1

5Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord[c] delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.


Matthew 25:46
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Thank you for your opinion. Thank God the Son of Man came to seek and to save those who are lost.

We've discussed those verses to death, and they do not mean what you are implying, but you are a sweetheart for showing us the light so graciously.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Thank you for your opinion. Thank God the Son of Man came to seek and to save those who are lost.

We've discussed those verses to death, and they do not mean what you are implying, but you are a sweetheart for showing us the light so graciously.

Even the OC Judeans had to ask Jesus who the Son of Man was

John 12:34 The crowd answered Him "we have heard out of the Law that the Christ remains into the Age, and how thou say 'the Son of the Man must be lifted up/exalted/uywqhnai <5312> (5683)'?
Who-any is this the Son of the Man?"

Daniel 7:13 Perceiving I was in visions of the night and behold! with clouds of the heavens as Son of a Mortal/0606 'enash arriving he was. And unto Ancient of the days he reached, and before Him they brought him near.
[Micah 5/Reve 12]

 

[Timothew]

Even the OC Judeans had to ask Jesus who the Son of Man was

John 12:34 The crowd answered Him "we have heard out of the Law that the Christ remains into the Age, and how thou say 'the Son of the Man must be lifted up/exalted/uywqhnai <5312> (5683)'?
Who-any is this the Son of the Man?"

Daniel 7:13 Perceiving I was in visions of the night and behold! with clouds of the heavens as Son of a Mortal/0606 'enash arriving he was. And unto Ancient of the days he reached, and before Him they brought him near.
[Micah 5/Reve 12]

Luke 19:10
For the Son of Man came to seek and save those who are lost. (NLT)

 

[98cwitr]

I don't just mean lost spiritually, I mean lost cognitively. I mean you can't see the forest for the gracious trees that are in the way.

Matthew is the only synoptic gospel writer to use this phrase anyway, Mark and Luke talk of the &#960;&#8166;&#961; &#964;&#8056; &#7940;&#963;&#946;&#949;&#963;&#964;&#959;&#957; (pur to asbeston) - the fire that cannot be put out. It is not the fire that cannot go out (when deprived of fuel). This is the majority view in the gospels, and equally expresses the incomprehensibility of the length of time that these fires have been burning, but does not actually express that they have been and always will be perpetually burning.

So you're gonna discredit Matthew because the other 3 didn't say it? Wow...

Implying that the fire is eternal, when paired with the scripture from Matthew, also implies that the punishment is eternal as well as the fire.

The fire of Hell will always burn....


Satan's Doom

7When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth&#8212;Gog and Magog&#8212;to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
The Dead Are Judged

11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Same lake, same fire, same torment. It's all there fellas.

 

[Mr Dave]

So you're gonna discredit Matthew because the other 3 didn't say it? Wow...

I don't discredit Matthew. The paragraph on Matthew before the one you quoted explains why the word translated as everlasting doesn't necessarily mean 'no beginning and no end' but goes much deeper into the ancient Near Eastern mindset.

Implying that the fire is eternal, when paired with the scripture from Matthew, also implies that the punishment is eternal as well as the fire.

No it doesn't. Saying "the man is wearing a blue coat" doesn't mean that the man is blue. The colour doesn't speak of the man but the coat. No colour is specified for the man. The same is true of the grammar of the Jude passage; it is not vague, the 'eternal' (for the sake of using that word) is grammatically linked only with the fire and not the length of the punishment. You could suffer in the 'eternal' fires and be removed (punishment/suffering) over, and the fires still be burning.

 

[98cwitr]

It says eternal punishment...verbatim, no allegory, no metaphor, plain and simple...I still dont get how you can twist that....

My point was both are eternal, the fire and the punishment, and it's implied through the use of both scripture references.

 

[Mr Dave]

It says eternal punishment...verbatim, no allegory, no metaphor, plain and simple...I still dont get how you can twist that....

My point was both are eternal, the fire and the punishment, and it's implied through the use of both scripture references.

I wasn't twisting it, I was explaining the specific connotations that are implied by the word &#945;&#7984;&#969;&#957;&#943;&#959;&#965;; connotations which cannot be expressed in one word in English, as ours is a different language, and we in the West in the 21st Century have a different mindset to those of the 1st century in the Near East. There is no point throwing on Western understanding to a word that has specific implications to a 1st century near-eastern author, and rejecting what we know of what they meant by the word.

 

[98cwitr]

I wasn't twisting it, I was explaining the specific connotations that are implied by the word &#945;&#7984;&#969;&#957;&#943;&#959;&#965;; connotations which cannot be expressed in one word in English, as ours is a different language, and we in the West in the 21st Century have a different mindset to those of the 1st century in the Near East. There is no point throwing on Western understanding to a word that has specific implications to a 1st century near-eastern author, and rejecting what we know of what they meant by the word.

Same Greek word &#945;&#7984;&#969;&#957;&#943;&#959;&#965; is used to describe God in Romans 16...is God finite too?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

It says eternal punishment...verbatim, no allegory, no metaphor, plain and simple...I still dont get how you can twist that....

My point was both are eternal, the fire and the punishment, and it's implied through the use of both scripture references.

You might be interested in how Judaism views hell

http://www.christianforums.com/t7491713/#post55490658
Judaism and Hell

quote Jewish member:
I do not believe there is a place of eternal torment and suffering for anybody. I believe that there is a purification for those who require purification. I could also be convinced to believe some people are so wicked they are simply annihilated, but I certainly do not believe they are tormented forever.

 

[Mr Dave]

I've just noticed that in your previous post you've said

It says eternal punishment

, when it doesn't. It says 'eternal' fire.

Same Greek word &#945;&#7984;&#969;&#957;&#943;&#959;&#965; is used to describe God in Romans 16...is God finite too?

No, God is not finite. I said that the word is used for things which are not fully comprehended, not that it always means a finite thing. The difference between how the word is to be read is how scripture describes the things. God is described as being in the beginning... and there is much that suggests he always was, always is and always will be. The same is not true of the 'eternal' fires (see other posts which go into this in detail).

 

[sentipente]

Why would God use the fear of torment as an inducement to serve Him?

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Hello Tall73...

I totaly agree with you that man does not have an immortal Soul.... after all God has to give of his spirit to our flesh or we do not live at all.

I have no doubts that you are a good God fearing man, however I have noticed that you seem to be working on a flawed Doctrine.

Not your fault...it is what you have been taught...and the translation into English was compromised long before it was translated into English... because the Original Greek for the New Testament was first translated around 400 AD into Latin.

The word you study and believe was messed with a long time ago by men who made interpretations instead of translation.

Then many centuries later it was translated into English.


Ever heard of the Movie.... Lost in Translation !

Guess what happened to the word of God because men messed with the translation over many centuries.

The Good news is, that a greater body of Evidence in that word remains because, many of the translaters while not granted wisdom by God to divide the word accuratley (as in 100%) they still could not completly stuff it up.

God watched over his word to ensure this..... We know God is not a liar and never contradicts himself.

Let me give you a demonstration of how powerfull the word of God is....

There is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, to be testified in due time (1 Timothy 2:5-6).

This one verse disagrees with your entire Theology!


Peace

God will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Timothy 2:4).
The Lord canst do all things, and that no purpose of His can be thwarted (Job 42:2).

Typical universalism proof texting.

Matt 25:46
46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
NASU

this one verse disagrees with your entire theology

Scripture interprets scripture

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Thanks

And do you mean you proposed a re-instatement? lol heading off to look.

EDIT...alright, couldn't find it. Got a link? ( Why do I think i am taking this statement too seriously given the smiley? ) lol

nice diatribe!

Thnx for taking the time

forgive me, I did not read it all, as I dont have the time . . . sorry

I am familiar with the perspective you r presenting tho . . .

u deal with Mat 25 in that the eternal punishment is an eternal lasting cessation?

and Rev 14 that the smoke of the ashes is their physical matter left but their consciousness gone?

Yes?

 

[98cwitr]

Why would God use the fear of torment as an inducement to serve Him?

it's not inducement...it's punishment.

 

[98cwitr]

All of you read this...For an Answer: Christian Apologetics - Matthew 25:46

AIÔNIOS (166)
Without end (BAGD)
Without end, never to cease, everlasting (Thayer)
Eternal (TDNT, Louw & Nida)
In the vernacular as in the classical Greek (see Grimm-Thayer), it never loses the sense of perpetuus (Moulton & Milligan)

 

[sentipente]

it's not inducement...it's punishment.

That's my point. God would more likely try to attract people to Him by laying out the benefits instead of scaring them away from someone else.

 

[sentipente]

I love the silence.

 

[Timothew]

That's my point. God would more likely try to attract people to Him by laying out the benefits instead of scaring them away from someone else.

I agree (bump!)

 

[Timothew]

All of you read this...For an Answer: Christian Apologetics - Matthew 25:46

AIÔNIOS (166)
Without end (BAGD)
Without end, never to cease, everlasting (Thayer)
Eternal (TDNT, Louw & Nida)
In the vernacular as in the classical Greek (see Grimm-Thayer), it never loses the sense of perpetuus (Moulton & Milligan)

Ok I read it, the objections seem better than his answers to the objections.
I do like this quote from the article:

In my view, the biblical teaching is not plain enough to warrant dogmatism.

 

[Timothew]

I love the silence.

Me too!

Early in the morning or late at night are my favorite times of day. The silence is refreshing and I can meditate peacefully. During the bustle of the day, everything is bumped about and all you can do is hang on.