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Featured Annihilationism Is Actually...Biblical

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Jordan Henshaw, Mar 5, 2018.

  1. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    More nonsense.
    In the following twenty two verses αἰών and αἰώνιος are defined/described by other words and phrases as eternal, everlasting etc.: 1 Timothy 1:17, 2 Corinthians 4:17-18, 2 Corinthians 5:1, Hebrews 7:24, 1 Peter 1:23, 1 Timothy 6:16, Galatians 6:8, John 6:58, John 10:20, 1 John 2:17, 1 Peter 5:10, Romans 2:7, Luke 1:33, Revelation 14:11, John 10:28, John 3:15, John 3:16, John 5:24, Ephesians 3:21, Romans 20:1, Romans 26:10.

    In the NT “aion/aionios” are used to refer to things which are not eternal but are never defined/described as meaning a period of time less than eternal as in the following verses.

    [1]1 Timothy 1:17.
    (17) Now unto the King eternal, [αἰών/aion] immortal, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God,
    be honour and glory for ever [αἰών/aion] and ever [αἰώνιος/aionios]. Amen.
    In this verse “aion” is paired with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and be immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [2]2 Corinthians 4:17-18
    (17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding

    and eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] weight of glory;
    (18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen
    are temporal;[πρόσκαιρος/proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios]
    In this passage “aionios” is contrasted with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” a finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary.” “Eternal” is. See Robertson below. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [3]2 Corinthians 5:1
    (1)For we know that if our earthly house of
    this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] in the heavens.
    In this verse “aionios house” is contrasted with “earthly house which is destroyed.” If an “aionios” house is at some time destroyed then it is no different than the earthly house. The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.” If the tabernacle in heaven is destroyed, it is no different than the earthly tabernacle.
    [4]Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [αἰών/aion] he has a permanent [ἀπαράβατος/aparabatos] priesthood.
    In this verse “aion” is paired with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue “for a finite period” and be “unchangeable” at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [5]1 Peter 1:23
    (23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God.
    1 Peter 1:25
    (25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[αἰών/aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.
    In verse 23 “word of God” is paired with “incorruptible.” In verse 25 the word of God “endures εις τον αιωνα unto eternity. ” Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity.”
    [6]1 Timothy 6:16
    (16) Who only hath immortality, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom
    be honour and power everlasting[αἰώνιος/aionios]
    In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”
    [7]Galatians 6:8
    (8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption;[φθορά/fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [αἰώνιος/aionios]
    In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. not “corruption.” “Age(s) is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting.”
    [8]John 6:58
    (58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[αἰώνιος/aionios]
    In this verse “aionios life” is contrasted with “death.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [9]John 10:28
    (28) I give them eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, and they shall never [αἰών/aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
    Here “aionios” and “aion” are paired with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s)” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [10]1 John 2:17
    (17) The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever. [αἰών/aion]
    In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “pass away” “aionios” cannot mean a finite period, A “finite period” is not opposite of “pass away.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [11]1 Peter 5:10
    (10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [αιωνιον/aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [ολιγον/oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.
    In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “little while” “aionios” cannot mean a finite period, A “finite period” is not opposite of “little while.” Thus by definition “aionios” here means “eternal.”
    [12]Romans 2:7
    (7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [ἀφθαρσία/apftharsia] he will give eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.
    In this verse “aion” is paired with “immortality.” If “aion” is only a finite period, believers cannot seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternal.”
    [13]Luke 1:33
    (33) And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom there shall be no end.[τελος/τελος]
    In this verse “aionios” is paired with “without end.” “aionios” cannot be paired with “without end” if it means only “ages” a finite period. “Aionios” by definition here means eternal.
    [14]Revelation 14:11
    (11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[εις αιωνας αιωνων/eis aionas aionas] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
    In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paired with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”
    [15]John 10:28
    (28) And I give unto them eternal [αιωνιον] life; and they shall never [εις τον αιωνα] perish, neither shall any
    man pluck them out of my hand.
    In this verse “aionion” is paired with “[no man can] “pluck them out of my hand.” If “aionion” is only a finite period then at some time they could be plucked out. “Aionion” by definition here means eternal.
    [16]John 3:15
    (15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.
    In this verse “aionion” is paired with “shall not perish.” They could perish in a finite period, “aionion” by definition here means eternal.
    [17]John 3:16
    (16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life.
    In this verse “aionion” is paired with “shall not perish.” They could perish in a finite period, “aionion” by definition here means eternal.
    [18]John 5:24
    (24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
    In this verse “aionios” is paired with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from life unto death.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal.”
    [19]Romans 5:21
    (21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [αἰώνιος] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
    In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with death. “A finite period” is not opposite death, “eternal life” is. “Aionios” by definition here means ‘eternal.”
    [20]Ephesians 3:21
    (21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [του αιωνος/tou aionios] and ever! [των αιωνων/ton aionion] Amen.
    In this verse “tou aionios ton aionion” is paired with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations."
    [21]Romans 1:20
    (20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made,
    even his eternal [ἀΐ́διος/aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
    [22]Romans 16:26
    (26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
    In Romans 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26 Paul refers to God as “aionios,” therefore Paul considers “aidios” and “aionios” to be synonymous.

     
  2. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    You said, "Ah yes the ever popular internet screed "the concept of hell was copied from Greek mythology.""

    That is your straw man.

    I know a source much more reliable. It's called the Bible. However, the OP isn't about what the Jews believed about annihilation. It's about what the Bible teaches about annihilation.
     
  3. Jordan Henshaw

    Jordan Henshaw Active Member

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    I started a new thread on the other big Christian forum site because all this "debate" is doing is beating a dead horse.

    If the only guy on this entire forum who will support ECT can't answer ridiculously simple questions, just whatever.

    Annihilationism won the debate a long time ago.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2018
  4. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Wrong! It appears that someone once again has failed to actually read my post and just threw out a bunch of canned arguments for the sake of argument. Try actually reading the post I was responding to and then you might understand my response and be able to provide a cogent response.
     
  5. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    I wrote the post you were responding to. And no, I didn't read you post this time. You post the same old straw man every time so no, I didn't read it.
     
  6. Jordan Henshaw

    Jordan Henshaw Active Member

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    This thread is probably about to be locked by the moderators. Please stop responding to each other so that the thread doesn't get locked.

    Thank you.
     
  7. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    So let me get this straight. You believe the word "destroy" is totally different than the word "die" in relation to a living being?

    If so, do you see the phrase: "The dog was destroyed when the space shuttle landed on top of him" as different than phrase: "the dog died when the space shuttle landed on top of him"?

    I see them as saying the same thing.

    How about this one?

    "Bob was destroyed when the giant particular beam of death had hit him."
    "Bob died when the giant particular beam of death had hit him."

    Are they saying two different things?

    Could Bob still be alive if he was destroyed by the giant particular beam of death?

    Also, the words "Second Death" is tied to the Lake of Fire. So if you need a word like "die" tied to the Lake of Fire, then it's alternative name "Second Death" should be sufficient. The word "death" is just another word for "die."
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
  8. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    While I disagree strongly with our ECT friend, we should talk nice words on the forums, my friend.

    I would edit out the words that are related to a Phillips head tool that was invented by Henry F. Phillips. You could get a point or a warning from a Moderator by keeping that word in your post.

    Anyways, may God bless you greatly today, friend.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
  9. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    This cracked me up. Keep telling yourself that. I have several posts in this thread which have not been addressed. Don't ignore my posts and demand that I answer silly jejune questions.
     
  10. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Do you have specific comments of mine which you do not understand? If so please quote them and state your understanding of what I said.
     
  11. Jordan Henshaw

    Jordan Henshaw Active Member

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    For example?
     
  12. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    You basically said in your post that you needed a word that said "die" in relation to being thrown into the Lake of Fire. Well, the Lake of Fire is called the "Second Death." The word "death" in the phrase or name "Second Death" is just another way of saying die. Also, I pointed out to you 1 Corinthians 15:26 that says that death is the last enemy to be destroyed. Destroyed. Somehow you think the word "destroyed" is waaay totally different than the word "die."

    Again, let me give you that example again:

    When the space shuttle landed on top of the dog it was destroyed.
    When the space shuttle landed on top of the dog it died.

    Same meaning.
    The dog is dead or the dog was destroyed.
    Same thing.
    But you want me to believe that 1 Corinthians 15:26 is saying something else entirely when it says "destroyed." Is death still in existence?? If the last enemy is destroyed according to 1 Corinthians 15:26, would not logic dictate that there were other enemies of God that were destroyed, too?

    Think about this slowly now.
    Let it sink in.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2018
  13. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    All I can tell you is I have been through the proof texts and this is consistent with all but one of the texts. I was like you, I read it and took it at face value, those in hell suffer forever. Speaking of consistency being consistent with the OT treatment of death and the grave is important to. Hell as we understand it in the Old Testament is virtually unknown. The word for Hell, γέεννα (geenna), is introduced by the Lord during the Sermon on the Mount. It is used 12 times in the New Testament, 11 times in the synoptic gospels by the Lord himself. The word is actually the name for a valley where the children of Israel used to toss their infant children as a sacrifice to Molech, the practice was known as making your children pass through the fire.
    Hell is the place of the future punishment called "Gehenna" or "Gehenna of fire". This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and their future destruction. (Outline of Biblical Usage)...
    Mark
    You might wish to familiarize yourself with the difference between a "proof text" and "scripture which supports an argument." The first is usually out-of-context. I note you have quoted the standard internet explanation for "Gehenna."
    According to the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.
    Clarification: There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. I am addressing only the belief stated above, Any other beliefs are not relevant to this response.

    Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
    The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);
    Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any supposed bias of Christian translators.
    (I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
    But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
    … heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).

    Link:Jewish Encyclopedia Online
    Encyclopedia Judaica:
    Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.

    During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; see *Moloch). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
    In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
    Gehinnom
    = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
    Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
    The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
    Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
    When Jesus taught about,
    • “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:Matthew 25:41
    • "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
    • "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
    • "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
    • “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.Matthew 18:6
    • “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.Matthew 7:23
    • “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. Matthew 26:24
    These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.
    Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
    29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
    30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
    31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
    Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.
    …..Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment, He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell must have been correct.
    = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

    The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
    Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
    Scharen: Gehenna in the Synoptics Pt. 1
    Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.
    “Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”
    (“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)
    G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
    “Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)
    The Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna is a myth - Archaeology, Biblical History & Textual Criticism

     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2018
  14. Jordan Henshaw

    Jordan Henshaw Active Member

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    I still have no idea what your point is.
     
  15. Oseas

    Oseas Member

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  16. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    I did not say I "needed a word that said 'die' in relation to the Lake of Fire." What I said specifically was four verses in Rev. mention the second death but not a single verse says that anyone/anything is thrown into the LOF then they die. If you would actually read my posts and respond directly to them perhaps you wouldn't misrepresent what I said.
    .....Yes, death is the last enemy to be "destroyed." Death is the point in time end of life it has no physical properties and no life of its own, how can it be "destroyed" in the sense that a living being can?
    .....I also said although the LOF is called the second death 4 times it is not synonymous with death because three living beings, one the false prophet is human, are thrown into the LOF but they don't die they are tormented day and night forever and ever. Also death and hell are thrown into the LOF, the second death, neither can die, they have not experienced a first death so they cannot experience a second death.
     
  17. Jordan Henshaw

    Jordan Henshaw Active Member

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    Really???
     
  18. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Typical of your responses, quote a few words out-of-context and attack your own straw man without addressing my point. If something is not alive and cannot die it can't die a second death so no matter how many times you say "the LOF is the second death" it is not synonymous with death. See if you can get that right.
     
  19. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Of course not. One has to read what s written to understand it.
     
  20. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    Hang on, you should learn the difference between refuting a point and making one. I'm well aware of the rabbinical tradition regarding an afterlife, I said in the Old Testament hell is unknown and as a biblical doctrine it is.
    I was already aware of most of that, certainly the New Testament quotes. It seemed irrelevant to annihilation and it still does.
    Nothing there about annihilation.

    Finally a proof text the Greek for 'eternal' simply means forever, 'punishment' is 'kolasis G2851 κόλασις',

    Punishment: akin to kolazo (PUNISH, No. 1), "punishment," is used in Mat 25:46, "(eternal) punishment," and 1Jo 4:18, "(fear hath) punishment," RV (AV, "torment"), which there describes a process, not merely an effect; this kind of fear is expelled by perfect love; where God's love is being perfected in us, it gives no room for the fear of meeting with His reprobation; the "punishment" referred to is the immediate consequence of the sense of sin, not a holy awe but a slavish fear, the negation of the enjoyment of love. (Vine’s Dictionary)

    So it literally means the punishment is forever. It's only used twice and not translated torment in Matt 25:46 because the context doesn't call for it. In 1 John 4:18 it's translated torment but in the NIV it's punishment. There's nothing inherent in that word or that verse that precludes annihilation.
    He is the only one in the Bible that teaches a formal doctrine of hell. Now there were other traditions and teachings but his failure to speak to those isn't the same thing as an endorsement. If he went around debating their traditions he wouldn't have had time for much else, they went on forever.

    Fine quotes, excellent research, I'm going to cut and paste this and save it. Thank you. It's all very interesting and not entirely new to me, I've seen these kind of quotes a number of times, just not so many together at once.

    Look I'm not totally dogmatic about this, I'm simply stating that the New Testament witness allows for it. I know the ancient Jews believed in an afterlife, as far as I can tell most cultures have had some concept of it. Jesus was the only one in Scripture that spoke specifically of hell, and the New Testament makes a distinction between hell and the lake of fire.

    The challenge here for me was an exposition of the texts involved, these are the passages that describe Hell:
    • "and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. (Matt 13:42)
    • "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Mat 25:46)
    • These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, (1Th. 1:9)
    • But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. Heb. 10:39
    • These are wells without water, clouds carried by a tempest, for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever. (2Pet. 2:17)
    • raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever. (Jude 1:13)
    • He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death." (Rev. 2:11)
    • Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. (Rev. 19:20)
    • The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (Rev. 20:10)
    • Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death (Rev 20:14)
    • "But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." (Rev. 21:8)
    Notice Rev. 20:10 says they will be tormented forever. Other places the fire is said to burn forever but the appears to be the only place that insists that they are tormented forever, at least in my estimation. I don't see much to argue about here, annihilation is one way of reading the texts in question that one proof text not withstanding. For me the one thing that was intriguing about the subject matter was the connection to Sheol, it's synonymous with the grave.

    I see this as a biblical doctrine and I have no problem with the kind of extra biblical doctrine you quoted. However, the issue for me is biblical and the rabbinical traditions don't exclude annihilation, only that death and the grave are permanent.

    Grace and peace,
    Mark
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2018
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