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Featured Annihilationism Is Actually...Biblical

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Jordan Henshaw, Mar 5, 2018.

  1. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    You are entitled to your opinions but The Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judiaca and the Talmud disagree with you.

    In response I will just consider all your posts irrelevant too.

    Vine was born in the second quarter of 1873, in Blandford Forum Dorset. His father ran the Mount Radford School, which moved to Exeter in 1875, and it was in this location that Vine was raised. He became a Christian at an early age and was baptised in the Plymouth Brethren assembly in Fore Street, Exeter. At 17, Vine became a teacher at his father's school, before moving to Aberystwyth to study at the University College of Wales. He later completed his education at the University of London, receiving a BA and MA in Ancient Classics in 1906.
    How does a BA and MA in ancient classics make someone an expert in Greek?
    You are entitled to your opinion. Jesus criticized the Jews on a number of occasions. Why would He teach doctrines to the Jews which supported the existing belief in hell rather than criticizing them and teach the doctrine of annihilation, if that is what He believed?

    These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, (1Th. 1:9)
    As I have pointed out elsewhere in this thread the word translated "destruction" does not necessarily mean to cease to exist. Something that does not exist cannot be "from the presence of the Lord" or anything else.
    Guess your estimation is wrong.
    Revelation 14:10-11
    (10) The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
    (11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
     
  2. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    No they don't, what were talking about is whether or not the suffering goes on forever.

    Why is that?

    Who says you have to have a PHD for exegetical studies. Dallas Theological has an undergraduate degree in exegetical studies and he had some help. It's not a lexicon but it's a fine dictionary. For just a solid definition keyed to the KJV it's a reasonably reliable source.
    It was never an issue.
    The key word here is 'Destruction' (G3639 ὄλεθρος olethros) :
    • ruin, destroy, death
    • for the destruction of the flesh, said of the external ills and troubles by which the lusts of the flesh are subdued and destroyed (Outline of Biblical Usage)
    According to Jesus, the child of perdition have their body and soul, 'killed' (G615 ἀποκτείνω apokteinō), in 'hell' (Gehenna of fire G1067 γέεννα geenna) in Matthew 10:28. Clearly a reference to the lake of fire and the word for 'kill' sounds like annihilation to me.

    Opinions vary

    It says the smoke of their torment ascends up for ever and ever, and they have no rest. It doesn't say their torment goes on forever, annihilation qualifies as eternal punishment.

    Grace and peace,
    Mark
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2018
  3. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    No need to get smart with me with your words. I am acutely aware of what you said. The Bible already mentions the words “cast into the Lake of Fire” in Revelation 20:10, and Revelation 20:15. The Bible also mentions the word “die” as a synonym for the Lake of Fire in Revelation 21:8 because it is called the “second death.” So while the Bible does not say exactly as you desire it (For the Lake of Fire to be a place of death), the truth of the matter is that the Bible does say these things in various parts that would add up to the sum of the whole.

    Whatever death is, it will be destroyed or cease to exist. Our physical bodies die and will cease to exist in the form that they are now. This is the result of death. Our bodies will eventually be destroyed. This is the process of death. We also know that fires actual burn up consume things.

    Notice that Revelation 20:10 does not say the beast and the false prophet are still alive. It merely says they "are' there. But in what state of existence are they in? They are more than likely ashes because that is what fires do to people and things. For example: Say Martha and Max die and their ashes were buried in HillsCommon Cemetery. Then there daughter dies 5 years later. When preparations are being made for the daughter's burial, the living brother could say to another person,

    "Yes, my sister is going to the HillsCommon Cemetery where my mother and father are."

    That does not mean the mother and father are still alive in their graves.

    I use this illustration because Jesus did the same kind of thing.
    They are called parables.

    But what about the phrase: "and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever"?

    As I pointed out earlier in this thread, the word "forever" and it's related synonyms does not always mean "forever" in the Bible. I will recap a few of them here for you again.

    • The Law is to be a statute “forever” (Exodus 12:24; Exodus 27:21; Exodus 28:43).

    • Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude 1:7) until -- God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom" (Ezekiel 16:53-55).

    • Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jeremiah 30:12) until -- the Lord "will restore health" and heal her wounds (Jeremiah 30:17).

    • The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Micah 1:9) until -- Lord "will restore ... the fortunes of Samaria." (Ezekiel 16:53).

    • Ammon is to become a "wasteland forever" and "rise no more" (Zephaniah 2:9, Jeremiah 25:27 until -- the Lord will "restore the fortunes of the Ammonites" (Jeremiah 49:6).​

    Also, the English word "ever" in the Greek as you know is "aiōn" (αἰών) can mean either a period of time or age.

    So Revelation 20:10 could read, "and shall be tormented day and night for the ages of ages." Meaning, they devil, the beast, and the false prophet will be tormented for days and nights for the purpose of the ages of ages of when they tormented mankind. It is talking hindsight and not future here.

    But why read Revelation 20:10 in such an unusual way?

    Well, because 1 Corinthians 15:26 says that the last enemy to be destroyed is death. This suggests that God's other enemies are destroyed prior. Otherwise "death" could not be the last enemy to be destroyed if there were no prior enemies of God that needed to be destroyed.

    In fact, Revelation 21 says,

    "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." (Revelation 21:4).

    "Behold, I make all things new." (Revelation 21:5).

    So did the Lord really make all things new if He is torturing the wicked for all eternity? Is there really no more sorrow or crying and no more pain if there is an Eternal Torment going on?

    I would say not.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2018
  4. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Der Alter:

    Also, can you explain to me the goodness behind the morality of Eternal Conscious Torment?

    Please explain to me how punishing the wicked for a finite amount of crimes for all eternity is fair justice?

    Thank you;
    And may God bless you this fine day.

    Sincerely,

    ~ Jason.
     
  5. Jordan Henshaw

    Jordan Henshaw Active Member

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    Perhaps we should emphasize what eternity is...

    1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000^1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000+ centuries.

    Or maybe this is better: googolplex to the googolplex power CENTURIES.

    Remember that this is the most painful form of torture known to mankind. It is the most painful form of torture possible!!! I mean have you ever experienced a minor burn on your finger? It HURTS!!!

    Also, remember that these two things combined is what is going to happen to that kid in Africa who led a life of humble, selfless service who laid down his own life so that others could be happy who never even heard the name Jesus once in his life because the missionaries didn't get to him in time.

    And don't use the, "Who are you to judge God?" line because you would have to apply it to yourself during a worship service as well. If you can't judge God for the bad things, you can't judge him for the good things either.

    I would be very interested in Der Alter's response.
     
  6. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    There is no counsel a person can make against the Lord.

    "There is no wisdom nor understanding nor counsel against the LORD." (Proverbs 21:30).

    We are limited in scope of our understanding of what God does sometimes because He operates in ways that are larger than we can see. When people go through suffering in this life, they may find it hard to find the goodness of God, but we do know that all things work together for good to those who love God. God has a greater plan for good that is not always easy to see.

    But I agree. The ECT version of God (Who tortures the wicked for all eternity) is not the God described in the Bible and it is not the God I have come to know. People have latched on to the ECT belief like a tick to a dog because that is what they believe all true Biblical churches believe. It really has nothing to do with the Scriptures. They cannot believe that the church can be wrong about something like this. Many will happily boast about church history, or some kind of commentary or something. However, the Word of God under the guidance of the Spirit needs to be their guide and not some outside source that is founded upon the wisdom of men.

    As for people who never knew the gospel:

    Well, I believe anyone who has a true desire to know God will have the message of the gospel preached to them. If God knew they would just reject Him anyways than it would not really matter if they heard the gospel or not. They would still be condemned based on their sinful nature and the violation of their own conscience.
     
  7. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Wrong again. See my [post #163] this thread.
    Vine did not even have a BA or MA in Greek. How do you know Vine's is a fine dictionary? Wait I know because it supports your assumptions/presuppositions
    Neither was anything else until Jesus criticized the Jewish leadership.
    Wrong! The context is key. Something that is destroyed, i.e. does not exist, cannot be from the presence of the Lord or anything else.
    ὄλεθρος, ου, ὁ (ὄλλυμι ‘destroy’; Hom.+; SIG 527, 82 [c. 220 B.C.]; BGU 1027 XXVI, 11; LXX; PsSol 8:1; TestReub 4:6; 6:3; Philo; Jos., Ant. 17, 38, Vi. 264; SibOr 3, 327; 348)[/SIZE]
    a state of destruction, destruction, ruin, death in our lit. always w. some kind of transcendent coloring (hostile spirits work ἐπʼ ὀλέθρῳ τοῦ γένους τῶν ἀνθρώπων Orig., C. Cels. 8, 54, 32): ἔρχεταί τινι ὄλ. ruin comes upon someone 1 Cl 57:4 (Pr 1:26). αἰφνίδιος αὐτοῖς ἐφίσταται ὄλ. sudden destruction will come upon them 1 Th 5:3. βυθίζειν τινὰ εἰς ὄλ. plunge someone headlong into ruin 1 Ti 6:9. ὄλ. αἰώνιος eternal death (TestReub 6:3) 2 Th 1:9 (s. ὀλέθριος).
    ② act of destruction, destruction παραδοῦναί τινα τῷ σατανᾷ εἰς ὄλ. τῆς σαρκός hand someone over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh 1 Cor 5:5 (handing over to Satan will result in the sinner’s death.—EvDobschütz, Die urchristl. Gemeinden 1902, 269–72; Lietzmann, Hdb. ’49, 28; and s. παραδίδωμι 1b.—Hierocles 14, 451b has the thought that the soul of the sinner in Hades is purified by the tortures of hell, and is saved thereby). Destruction brought about by Satan is mentioned also IEph 13:1 ὅταν πυκνῶς ἐπὶ τὸ αὐτὸ γίνεσθε, καθαιροῦνται αἱ δυνάμεις τοῦ σατανᾶ καὶ λύεται ὁ ὄλ. αὐτοῦ when you come together frequently, the (spirit-) powers of Satan are destroyed, and his destructiveness is nullified.—DELG s.v. ὄλλυμι. M-M. TW.
    Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 702). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

    Wrong! Your proof text does NOT say "the child of perdition have their body and soul, 'killed'" Your proof text says that God is able to destroy body and soul in hell.
    Wrong! Reading your own assumptions/presuppositions into the text. Let's read it again.

    "shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night."
    If they cease to exist the smoke is no longer theirs and that the torment is eternal is emphasized by "they have no rest day or night." It does not say "until they are destroyed."
     
  8. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    Seen it, I'm not impressed.
    No, it was just a general definition so if you have a better one let's hear it.


    It was commonly believed that there was an afterlife, there was never an issue over that.




    This lexicon entry is describing destruction, perfectly consistent with annihilation.


    Right, which indicates to be complete destruction of the body and soul, not eternal torture.


    Annihilation isn't rest and all the passage is really saying is the smoke, that caused their torment, never goes out. The smoke of their torment rises forever, that doesn't necessarily mean their torment goes on forever.
     
  9. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    As soon as you explain to me "the goodness behind the morality" of God destroying all the inhabitants of the earth, men women, old, young, children and infants in the flood, except for Noah and his family, and God destroying all the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah, men women, old, young, children and infants.
    When Jesus taught about,

    • “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:Matthew 25:41
    • "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
    • "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
    • "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
    • “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.Matthew 18:6
    • “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.Matthew 7:23
    • “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. Matthew 26:24
    These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell, believed by many Jews of His day. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.
    Heb 10:28
    He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
    29 Of
    how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
    30 For we know him that hath said,
    Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
    31
    It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
    Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.
    …..Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment, He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell must have been correct.
     
  10. Jordan Henshaw

    Jordan Henshaw Active Member

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    This is where you and I may disagree. I can't worship someone who would torture me forever for the crime of not loving him back. Because that is wrong. That is the most EVIL thing anyone or anything could possibly do. No amount of "God is amazing and perfect" will ever convince me that torturing people with the most painful form of torture possible for trillions of trillions of years is OK. I can't reconcile "I will burn you forever if you don't love me" and "God is love". Those two things are mutually exclusive. You can't be the epitome of love and torture people forever at the same time. It just doesn't work. And "God is so amazing and is just so much wiser than us puny humans" just doesn't cut it. Torturing people forever for ANY reason is BAD. That is NOT OK.

    But the bible doesn't teach that this is who God is.

    He isn't going to torture people forever.

    ECT is a lie that came from Satan himself in the garden.

    And the only person who will defend ECT on this forum still blatantly refuses to answer extremely simple, easy questions.
     
  11. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Neither am I impressed by your responses.
     
  12. Jordan Henshaw

    Jordan Henshaw Active Member

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    Again, the question was addressed to YOU.

    And no. We will not answer your question for you so that you can attack the response and avoid needing to answer it yourself.

    Not going to happen.

    Answer the question.
     
  13. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    I am always fascinated how such elaborate arguments can be reduced to pedantic one liners in short order. Thanks for the exchange, it was fun. :)
     
  14. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Your assumptions/presuppositions are wrong again, fire does not always burn people or things to ashes. Exodus 3:2, Daniel 3:25
    Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented [βασανισθησονται] day and night for ever and ever.
    βασανισθησονται V-FPI-3P , verb, future, passive, indicative, 3d person plural(they)
     
  15. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Funny someone, who dismissed my entire post with a one liner, has their knickers in a twist when I used the same one liner to dismiss his post.
     
  16. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Good go play your silly games with someone else. One should not stamp their feet and throw a hissy fit because I will not do what they refuse to do.
     
  17. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Yes, God and His people are not burned by fire. That doesn't prove anything but to show that the Lord can emanate fire and that God's people cannot be hurt by the second death. It doesn't show that the wicked are burned in flames and yet protected. One of the points of Daniel 3 is that Daniel's three friends were protected in the flames. These were not flames of judgment upon wicked men with them not being burned. Big difference here.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2018
  18. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    It is your assumption that it is talking future tense here with the words "for ever and ever."

    I believe that in order to be consistent with the rest of Scripture, it is highly likely that Revelation 20:10 says this,

    "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are [i.e. where the beast and the false prophet are in the form of the existence of ashes], and [they] shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever [i.e. for the purpose of the ages of the ages that are past]." (Revelation 20:10).

    Note: My commentary is in the blue brackets.

    Anyways, may God bless you.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2018
  19. Jordan Henshaw

    Jordan Henshaw Active Member

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    Also note that some translations say, "where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown"
     
  20. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Ah yes. Good one.

    The NIV says,
    "where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown."

    BSB says,
    "into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown."

    GNT says,
    "where the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown;"

    GWT says,
    "where the beast and the false prophet were also thrown."​

    As for the words "for ever and ever."
    Here are a few translations that render it as ages or aeons (i.e. set periods of time).

    "for the eons of the eons." ~ Concordant Literal New Testament
    "for the ages of the ages." ~ Darby Bible Translation.
    "for the aeons of the aeons." ~ The New Covenant by Dr. J.W. Hanson​

    In other words, Revelation 20:10 is saying the devil, the beast, and the false prophet will be tormented day and night for the purpose of the Ages of the Ages. As I mentioned before, this is talking about the Ages of Ages that are past. They are being punished day and night for the evil that they committed during the past Ages and Ages here on this Earth. For the word "for" can also be defined as "because" within the English language.

    So if we were to combine the Good News Translation (GNT) with the Darby Bible Translation (DBT), Revelation 20:10 would look like this:

    "Then the Devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown; (GNT) and they shall be tormented day and night for the ages of ages. (DBT)." (Revelation 20:10).
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2018
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