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How is that supposed to make any sense? "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" Genesis 1:1. How is Fire and Water doing what you just did? I get that you're all on fire about this, but all the same maybe you should cool off some and slow down a little and think ahead a bit more.There is no where in the Bible that says God created the heavens and the earth . See I can do that to , just like you .
Is that a fact?Actually, that is one of the gapping flaws with the eternal punishment doctrine. People like yourself, argue that God must send people to everlasting hell, because is loving, but also just. Well, there is no room for justice, if it's a one size fits all punishment, which eternal punishment is. There is nowhere to indicate that there are levels of punishment in this hell of yours.
Is that a fact?
EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left vs. 41] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”[EOB, p. 96]…..Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, linked below, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
…..I doubt there is anyone better qualified than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted above and below, to know the correct translation of the Greek in the N.T.
Link to EOB online:
…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
The New Testament (The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible)archive.org
EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.[EOB, p. 518]In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18.
…..Some badly informed folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.”
Sorry, that is impossible, both “prune” and “correction” are verbs. “Kolasis” is a noun. A noun cannot be translated as a verb.
Also according to the EOB Greek scholars “kolasis” means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”
The word “correction” occurs one time in the N.T.
2 Timothy 3:16 ἐπανόρθωσις/epanorthosis. It looks nothing like kolasis.
…..It is acknowledged that modern Greek differs from koine Greek but I am confident that the native Greek speaking EOB scholars, supported by 2000 years +/- of uninterrupted Greek scholarship, are more than competent enough to know the correct translation of obsolete Greek words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer in use and to translate them correctly. Much as English speaking scholars today know the meaning of obsolete English words which occur in, e.g. the 1611 KJV and can define them correctly.
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.Neither the Father, Himself, nor Jesus, Himself, ever said that all mankind will be saved, or enter the kingdom of heaven.
As a matter of fact, Jesus said, “Not every one …shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;” Then Jesus said, “Many” [NOT a few,] “will say to me in that day,” i.e. Judgement day, “Lord, Lord, have we not … in thy name done many wonderful works?”
Then Jesus will say to those “many” “I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” When Jesus says “never” He means “never” not someday by and by.
How is that supposed to make any sense? "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" Genesis 1:1. How is Fire and Water doing what you just did? I get that you're all on fire about this, but all the same maybe you should cool off some and slow down a little and think ahead a bit more.
I assume this post was for MMXX since it does not address anything I said.He said nowhere in the Bible mentions different levels/degrees of punishment. That is completely false. Luke 12:47-48 proves this. Are you saying verse 47 and verse 48 are identical ?? Lets look at verse 47 then verse 48 .
"That servant who knew his master’s will and did not prepare or act according to what his master wanted, will be punished severely." Luke 12:47
"But the one who did not know, and did something worthy of punishment, will be punished lightly." Luke 12:48
Verse 48 is not repeating verse 47. Verse 47 and 48 are not identical. Surely you can see this ? The servant in verse 47 is going to get a more severe punishment than the servant in verse 48. Thats obvious. But you say the wicked unbelievers will all receive the same punishment of annihilation. We all know you cant have different levels of annihilation. You either exist or you dont. You cant have different forms of annihilation. Annihilation is annihilation.
Luke 12:47-48 makes absolutely no sense with annihilationism. Yes the wicked will go away to eternal punishment (Matthew 25:46)
but some will suffer worse than others. Luke 12:47-48 teaches this.
Lets look at Matthew 10:15 = "Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town."
How would it be more bearable if they all receive the same punishment of annihilation ???? Nothing is more bearable when you dont exist. You cant have different levels of annihilation. Your either annihilated or your not, there is no in between.
Same thing with Luke 10:14 "But it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment than for you."
How would annihilation be more bearable than annihilation ??? There is no room for different levels of punishment when you dont exist anymore.
Yes it was but maybe you could chime in on how you interpret Luke 12:47-48 andI assume this post was for MMXX since it does not address anything I said.
I've already addressed that. If there is annihilation it will take place on the Last Day. If the rich man in Luke 16:19-31 is a real person, then he's been punished in Hades for at least 2000 years. Jesus was severely beaten with whips, and then he was put to death. Most of the time throughout history people have been punished one way or another before being put to death. But at this point I don't expect that to register. Some folks dogmatically stick to dogma.He said nowhere in the Bible mentions different levels/degrees of punishment. That is completely false. Luke 12:47-48 proves this. Are you saying verse 47 and verse 48 are identical ?? Lets look at verse 47 then verse 48 .
"That servant who knew his master’s will and did not prepare or act according to what his master wanted, will be punished severely." Luke 12:47
"But the one who did not know, and did something worthy of punishment, will be punished lightly." Luke 12:48
Verse 48 is not repeating verse 47. Verse 47 and 48 are not identical. Surely you can see this ? The servant in verse 47 is going to get a more severe punishment than the servant in verse 48. Thats obvious. But you say the wicked unbelievers will all receive the same punishment of annihilation. We all know you cant have different levels of annihilation. You either exist or you dont. You cant have different forms of annihilation. Annihilation is annihilation.
Luke 12:47-48 makes absolutely no sense with annihilationism. Yes the wicked will go away to eternal punishment (Matthew 25:46)
but some will suffer worse than others. Luke 12:47-48 teaches this.
Lets look at Matthew 10:15 = "Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town."
How would it be more bearable if they all receive the same punishment of annihilation ???? Nothing is more bearable when you dont exist. You cant have different levels of annihilation. Your either annihilated or your not, there is no in between.
Same thing with Luke 10:14 "But it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment than for you."
How would annihilation be more bearable than annihilation ??? There is no room for different levels of punishment when you dont exist anymore.
He doesn't need to for me. He so dogmatically sticks to dogma I usually already know what he's going to post.Yes it was but maybe you could chime in on how you interpret Luke 12:47-48 and
Matt 10:15 .
It's in the Bible: "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."What did Jesus save us from ???? Eternal sleep aka Resting In Peace ???
So you can make up anything you like and claim it's God's Truth that just didn't make it into Scripture. Handy, that.Outside of scripture ?? John 20:30 and John 21:25 prove that not everything was recorded in scripture.
Yes it was but maybe you could chime in on how you interpret Luke 12:47-48 and
Matt 10:15 .
Hope you are talking to yourself. Unlike yourself I can back up everything I post from reading scripture, as written, not what a lot of folks claim "it really means." Hardly a day goes by that some UR proponent tries to tell me what the "scripture really says." There are some posts in this very thread. And most don't know a hithpael from a hatpin or an aorist from an apple.The most ironic dogmatically sticking to dogma I often see is the repetitive posting of Matthew 25:46. Because it says those golden words "eternal punishment". But they in their dogmatic dogma, fail to acknowledge the first half of verse 46 and what brings it about.
To paraphrase Jesus says, whatever you do for one person, you've done for him, so you will go away to eternal life. Now either Jesus is being literal or he isn't.
But folks who dogmatically stick to dogma have such a narrow view, they aren't able to take things like that into consideration.
Rigid dogma is still dogma no matter how many proof texts are tossed into it.Hope you are talking to yourself. Unlike yourself I can back up everything I post from reading scripture, as written, not what a lot of folks claim "it really means." Hardly a day goes by that some UR proponent tries to tell me what the "scripture really says." There are some posts in this very thread. And most don't know a hithpael from a hatpin or an aorist from an apple.
Now please point out where the passage says the punishment (described in the form of whipping, a common punishment for servants and slaves back then) is an everlasting nonstop eternal whipping.Eastern Greek Orthodox NT. “Such a servant, who knew his lord’s will and yet did not prepare or do what the master wanted will be beaten with many stripes. “But a servant who did not know and did things worthy of punishment 3 will be beaten with few stripes. From everyone to whom much is given, much will be required; and from whoever was entrusted with much, much will be asked.Very clearly says the servant who is less guilty receives less punishment.
Now please point out where the passage says the punishment (described in the form of whipping, a common punishment for servants and slaves back then) is an everlasting nonstop eternal whipping.
They're not crystal clear in the way you want them to be. That's why they're debated.There are plenty of other verses in the Bible that prove Hell is eternal. But you don't believe those passages which are crystal clear.
I said, more than once, that if there is annellation, there's punishment before annihilation takes place on the Last Day. But apparently you don't pay attention to what's said, and just keep repeating yourself.Luke 12:47-48 proves there are different levels of punishment. But that goes against annihilationism. You believe the wicked unbelievers all receive the SAME punishment of annihilation. There are no levels in annihilation. You either exist or you don't.
So you believe in many punishments now ? So Jesus is going to come back and whip the wicked. Some more than others . Then he is going to throw them into the lake of fire . Then he is going to annihilate themThey're not crystal clear in the way you want them to be. That's why they're debated.
I said, more than once, that if there is annellation, there's punishment before annihilation takes place on the Last Day. But apparently you don't pay attention to what's said, and just keep repeating yourself
Once again I am accused of "prooftexting" there is a BIG difference between an out-of-context "proof text" and an in context scripture posted in support of a point. I do the latter. For example. Matthew 7:21-23. I post this passage and immediately the nay sayers, "Nuh uh it doesn't mean what it says."Rigid dogma is still dogma no matter how many proof texts are tossed into it.
Dogma is still dogma no matter how much more proficient in Greek than everyone else is one claims to be. Dogma is still dogma even if the person issuing it remembers when FDR was president. Dogma is often very repetitions.
Please show me where I ever said that Luke 12:47-48 said anything about everlasting non-stop eternal whipping?Now please point out where the passage says the punishment (described in the form of whipping, a common punishment for servants and slaves back then) is an everlasting nonstop eternal whipping.
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