An Honest Question

[John54]

Hi, Criada.

So what is it that you are asking for?

I'm asking for a range of answers to the question I posed at the beginning of this thread. How can you believe in God?

Are you seriously seeking answers, or trying to prove apoint that you have already made up your mind on?

I'm seriously interested in the answers people give me.

I'm fairly certain that the conclusion I've come to - that there is no God - is the correct conclusion, but if anyone could provide clear evidence that I'm wrong, I'd be delighted.

Even if nobody can do that, I'm interested in the answers because the mechanisms of belief fascinate me.

Also, I'm a freelance writer by trade and at some point I intend to write an article about the roots of religious belief and the internal structures that support it. These discussions are helping me both clarify my own views and gather a sample of the views of others.

John

 

[salida]

John54--

Ha, its obvious to me that God isn't fiction. Thinking that God doesn't exist is like telling me the moon and sun doesn't exist.

I challenge you to read the book God's Fingerprints first.

Evidence Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell (these objective facts would stand up in a court of law) and Examine the Evidence by Muncaster (a former athiest but now a christian) and last I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be An Athiest by Norman L. Geisler and Frank Turek.

Also, a great website is www.reasons.org - the originator of this website has a PhD in Chemistry - its about belief and science.

I know there is a God.

 

[John54]

Thanks for the reading suggestions, salida.

I'll add them to my To Be Read pile - currently about 3,000 books high and growing!

John

 

[Maggie893]

Hey John,

Sorry I couldn't post sooner, I'm off on a business trip so posting will be limited.

I'm going to give you my quick .02 cents for what it's worth.

You suggest that humans created God to satisfy a need, I would suggest that you have eliminated God to satisfy a need.

There are truly very few authentic atheists in the world. Many young folk that hope their right but few, logical thinking well-read atheists that aren't just trying to get a name for themselves with the next great best-seller that barely scratches the surface of science and philosophy. The reason for that is because God has revealed Himself quite clearly in physical nature, natural law and moral law amongst all nations through all time. The basic principles of God are found in all the major religions with little variation regarding morals.

You don't need a book to tell you that unless you are working quite hard at ignoring the truth.

As for the Christian God not being a good or loving God because of evil, again, you are looking at this backwards. You only know what evil is because you have seen good. If you have seen real beauty, perfection and power in nature then you begin to understand how awful evil is. Cause and effect, my friend. God even says He's the author of evil but not because He created it but because by His very existence, anything less than Him is just not perfect.

Seriously, neither philosophy nor theology is a sound bite. I did an enormous amount of research and prayer prior to returning to the Catholic church and I still have so much more to learn about God. I also experienced Him, just as you believe you experience an absence of God, my senses have experienced God. I would need a very long time and a very lot of bytes to explain all the reasons that I believe in God. It ranges from logic, to sensory, to emotion, but no one reason is my only reason. If you truly want truth, there is an abundance of documentation through the ages we can provide.

You need to try reversing your assumptions just as any good scientist would do during a regression test and be open to the possibility that you are wrong.

In all of the known history of man no book has ever survived in such a pristine manner as the Holy bible. Never has any one organization retained it's form and function for as long as the Catholic church has. Why do you suppose that is?

I also must say this, if humans were to create a God to fill a need, why in the world would we create one more perfect than ourselves so that we always know our own weakness? Why would the human writers of the bible write a book only to denigrate themselves throughout the entire thing? Why would humans, who would prefer to live by the phrase, "eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow you shall die", create a God of moderation and hope? Why if we so much love justice for others and mercy for ourselves, do we create a God that holds us to justice for ourselves and mercy for others?

Sorry but your logic fails and I truly believe that if you stop for long enough you will see that you might be missing out on something far greater than yourself.

Your line of questioning shows a very limited understanding of Christianity and logic to those that have studied God to any degree. I believe you will need to do a lot more work in those areas before you will convince anyone that you have worked through it all and found it wanting.

The bottom line is that you need to pursue more than just a short justification for faith from a few people you don't know. You need to ask your friends of faith to spend some time with you.

I would love to dialogue with you further as I believe you to be intelligent and seeking to some capacity to know the truth. Unfortunately I won't be around enough this week to do it justice and as with most threads your interest will likely wane before we even hit the really good stuff. I hope you hear what has been said by many in this thread and if others can continue to dialogue with you frequently enough, I hope you find some new information that intrigues you.

I'll be praying for you whether you like it or not.

 

[Secundulus]

You're right. It is clear. It is equally clear that, although the two events are descibed in different orders, no order is assigned to the events, themselves.

At the risk of seeming like I am debating, which I am not, this is only a problem if you seek to understand everything literally. This is not necessary and writers as early as St. Augustine in 425 AD addressed this.

This is not to say that those of us who read it differently do not believe in the word of God. We beleive just as strongly that Jesus Christ rose from the dead and is Lord. But picking apart verses as you have done is a fruitless exercise.

I would again recommed as others have done that you read the works of C.S. Lewis beginning with Mere Christianity. He expalins it much better than we have done and seperates it from religious dogma.

 

[kompia]

Dear John54,

Just my 1 cent opinion.

I rather believe there is a God that created me and you, than believing that I evolved from apes and the apes evolved from fish and the fish evolved from some tiny bacteria which evolved from stone felt from outer space. What the heck, if that all truth, then, there still must be someone who throws the stone onto earth, right???

God bless.

 

[John54]

Hi, Maggie. Thanks for the input.

There are truly very few authentic atheists in the world. Many young folk that hope their right but few, logical thinking well-read atheists that aren't just trying to get a name for themselves with the next great best-seller that barely scratches the surface of science and philosophy.

I don't think the facts can support that view. I know there are many atheists (especially in America) who keep their views to themselves, because they know such views can reduce job prospects etc.

Apart from that, the higher the level of education, the more likely an individual is to become an atheist.

'The scientific community, above any other subgroup of the population, has become overwhelmingly atheistic. According to a 1998 report in Nature, a recent survey finds that, "among the top natural scientists, disbelief is greater than ever; almost total". Interestingly, the biologists in the National Academy of Sciences were found to possess the lowest rate of belief of all the science disciplines, with only 5.5% believing in God.'

You need to try reversing your assumptions just as any good scientist would do during a regression test and be open to the possibility that you are wrong.

As I said above, I am open to that possibility, Maggie - but from the tone of your comments I wonder if the same applies to you? Is there anything that would convince you God is a fiction, or are you 100% certain you are right?

Enjoy the business trip - and thanks again for taking the time to post.

John

 

[John54]

But picking apart verses as you have done is a fruitless exercise.

Conflicting advice, Secundulus. Mike advocates years of intense biblical study if one is to fully understand - which must surely involve close scrutiny of every verse in the bible - but you say picking them apart is fruitless.

John

 

[John54]

Hi, kompia.

I rather believe there is a God that created me and you, than believing that I evolved from apes and the apes evolved from fish and the fish evolved from some tiny bacteria which evolved from stone felt from outer space. What the heck, if that all truth, then, there still must be someone who throws the stone onto earth, right???

Part of me would rather believe that too, kompia.

But without solid reasons to base that belief upon, I can't accept it.

John

 

[Criada]

As I see it, none of the "reasons" we can give are going to convince you in any way.
Because ultimately, it comes down to faith!
And my knowledge of God is experiential, and not scientific.
Faith is a gift of God, not something you can ever come to by arguement or logic.
Logic can convince you of the existance of Jesus, but only by faith can you accept His divinity!!

That does not mean that you have to ignore your intellect - nothing I know of God in any way contradicts my intellectual knowledge.

And maybe things that you find out intellectually will prompt you to ask God to reveal the truth to you.
Because He is the only one who can!

 

[Secundulus]

Conflicting advice, Secundulus. Mike advocates years of intense biblical study if one is to fully understand - which must surely involve close scrutiny of every verse in the bible - but you say picking them apart is fruitless.

John

Picking them apart to study is useful. Picking them apart looking for contridictions is fruitless,

 

[John54]

As I see it, none of the "reasons" we can give are going to convince you in any way.
Because ultimately, it comes down to faith!

Yes, that's the core of my problem, Criada.

I can't see any merit in faith. I read what so many others have said about it in the past and find myself nodding in agreement.

"Faith is the effort to believe what your common sense tells you is not true." Elbert Hubbard

"Faith may be defined briefly as an illogical belief in the occurrence of the improbable." H. L. Mencken

"Faith is believing what you know ain’t so." Mark Twain

"The deepest sin against the human mind is to believe things without evidence." Thomas H. Huxley

"[Children] are taught that it is a virtue to accept statements without adequate evidence, which leaves them a prey to quacks of every kind in later life, and makes it very difficult for them to accept the methods of thought which are successful in science." J. B. S. Haldane

"Because religious training means credulity training, churches should not be surprised to find that so many of their congregations accept astrology as readily as theology, or a channeled Atlantean priest as readily as a biblical prophet." Barbara G. Walker

"The most pernicious of absurdities is that weak, blind, stupid faith is better than the constant practice of every human virtue." Walter Savage Landor

"I do not support religion because it demands that we give up our most important human asset, the ability to question. It demands that we simply believe. Isn't that true of any dictator, of any totalitarian society? Insofar as social development is concerned, nothing is of greater importance than the human function of questioning. . . . Questioning led to the development of civilization." Vladimir Pozner

Statements like the above make complete sense to me. I trust reason in every other area of my life. To allow faith in through the door and kick reason out of the window when it comes to the most important area of all seems crazy.

John

 

[John54]

Picking them apart to study is useful. Picking them apart looking for contridictions is fruitless,

Do you know why science has made such stuning progress in the last 400 years, Secundulus?

It's because at the very foundation of the scientific method is the idea that every theory should be picked apart, looking for contradictions.

Far from being fruitless, it's this process that generates the many and varied fruits of knowledge.

John

 

[Secundulus]

Do you know why science has made such stuning progress in the last 400 years, Secundulus?

It's because at the very foundation of the scientific method is the idea that every theory should be picked apart, looking for contradictions.

Far from being fruitless, it's this process that generates the many and varied fruits of knowledge.

John

First you have to understand the purpose of the theory that you are picking apart. In this case the first two chapters of the Book of Genesis. As I said, it is not to present science or history. So to pick at it like it is science or history is an utter waste of time.

 

[John54]

First you have to understand the purpose of the theory that you are picking apart. In this case the first two chapters of the Book of Genesis. As I said, it is not to present science or history. So to pick at it like it is science or history is an utter waste of time.

No, the theory is: There is a kind and loving God who created the universe and everything in it. The first 2 chapters of Genesis are simply the opening chapters of a book that was, it is claimed, inspired by this God.

That's an important distinction, Secundulus, because if there are internal contradictions in the bible, the theory of God is undermined.

John

 

[Secundulus]

No, the theory is: There is a kind and loving God who created the universe and everything in it. The first 2 chapters of Genesis are simply the opening chapters of a book that was, it is claimed, inspired by this God.

That's an important distinction, Secundulus, because if there are internal contradictions in the bible, the theory of God is undermined.

John

Voltaire already did, 250 years ago, what you are now doing. He also predicted the imminent collapse of Christianity due to his scholarly research. If you haven't read him already, you should add him to your list.

 

[desmalia]

Yes, that's the core of my problem, Criada.

I can't see any merit in faith. I read what so many others have said about it in the past and find myself nodding in agreement.

"Faith is the effort to believe what your common sense tells you is not true." Elbert Hubbard

"Faith may be defined briefly as an illogical belief in the occurrence of the improbable." H. L. Mencken

"Faith is believing what you know ain’t so." Mark Twain

"The deepest sin against the human mind is to believe things without evidence." Thomas H. Huxley

I think these are pretty decent descrpitions of most religions/cults in the world, and it even represents many who attend Christian churches (many who call themselves Christian do not really know Christ, believe it or not). But that is not true faith in Christ. Faith is something God-given, and so is the renewed understanding of the world. It absolutely does not require one to shut down his or her mind in order to blindly accept. Certainly as humans we cannot expect to understand every secret of the universe. Our brains are just too limited. But that should never, ever stop us from questioning, searching, and seeking understanding. There are many wonderful and amazing things for us to learn about in this life.

"[Children] are taught that it is a virtue to accept statements without adequate evidence, which leaves them a prey to quacks of every kind in later life, and makes it very difficult for them to accept the methods of thought which are successful in science." J. B. S. Haldane

"Because religious training means credulity training, churches should not be surprised to find that so many of their congregations accept astrology as readily as theology, or a channeled Atlantean priest as readily as a biblical prophet." Barbara G. Walker

"The most pernicious of absurdities is that weak, blind, stupid faith is better than the constant practice of every human virtue." Walter Savage Landor

"I do not support religion because it demands that we give up our most important human asset, the ability to question. It demands that we simply believe. Isn't that true of any dictator, of any totalitarian society? Insofar as social development is concerned, nothing is of greater importance than the human function of questioning. . . . Questioning led to the development of civilization." Vladimir Pozner

Statements like the above make complete sense to me. I trust reason in every other area of my life. To allow faith in through the door and kick reason out of the window when it comes to the most important area of all seems crazy.

John

You have been led to believe that there are contradictions in the Bible. I encourage you to question that teaching and not simply have faith in it. Consider giving the Bible the benifit of the doubt (just for argument's sake) and see if you can't find answers to such accusations against it. You've got nothing to lose, right?

I don't think anyone here would suggest that you should just blindly accept Christ when you really don't believe in Him. In fact, it's just as bad to blindly accept Him when you do believe in Him. Submitting to the Lordship of Christ is an incredible thing that changes the entire life and molds the human will to that of God's. It is a rejection of self-desire, replaced with a desire to serve and glorify God. Such a thing actually goes against basic human nature. That is never something to be taken lightly!

 

[Criada]

Yes, that's the core of my problem, Criada.

I can't see any merit in faith. I read what so many others have said about it in the past and find myself nodding in agreement.

"Faith is the effort to believe what your common sense tells you is not true." Elbert Hubbard

"Faith may be defined briefly as an illogical belief in the occurrence of the improbable." H. L. Mencken

"Faith is believing what you know ain’t so." Mark Twain

"The deepest sin against the human mind is to believe things without evidence." Thomas H. Huxley

"[Children] are taught that it is a virtue to accept statements without adequate evidence, which leaves them a prey to quacks of every kind in later life, and makes it very difficult for them to accept the methods of thought which are successful in science." J. B. S. Haldane

"Because religious training means credulity training, churches should not be surprised to find that so many of their congregations accept astrology as readily as theology, or a channeled Atlantean priest as readily as a biblical prophet." Barbara G. Walker

"The most pernicious of absurdities is that weak, blind, stupid faith is better than the constant practice of every human virtue." Walter Savage Landor

"I do not support religion because it demands that we give up our most important human asset, the ability to question. It demands that we simply believe. Isn't that true of any dictator, of any totalitarian society? Insofar as social development is concerned, nothing is of greater importance than the human function of questioning. . . . Questioning led to the development of civilization." Vladimir Pozner

Don't depend on what others have said.

I could (but I won't just now!) post an equally long list of quotations from intellectuals who have acceptd Christ.
But I don't think that you should listen to them either!

Statements like the above make complete sense to me. I trust reason in every other area of my life. To allow faith in through the door and kick reason out of the window when it comes to the most important area of all seems crazy.

John

Faith does not "kick reason out of the window".
I am a Christian. I am a scientist. I consider myself to be a reasoning human being.
But my faith and my reason do not conflict.
Before I was a Christian, I could not see how this could be the case - but then I did not really understand faith.
God gave us our minds - He certainly does not expect us to switch them off when we come to Him!

 

[John54]

Faith does not "kick reason out of the window".
I am a Christian. I am a scientist. I consider myself to be a reasoning human being.

That's interesting, Criada.

What's your field?

Are there no areas at all in which biblical teachings come into conflict with what you've learned in your study of science?

John

 

[John54]

You have been led to believe that there are contradictions in the Bible. I encourage you to question that teaching and not simply have faith in it. Consider giving the Bible the benifit of the doubt (just for argument's sake) and see if you can't find answers to such accusations against it. You've got nothing to lose, right?

Desmalia, I've read and read and read...

I'm 53 years old and have spent far too many hours reading, thinking, trying to puzzle it out.

Religion fascinates me, as do the people who say they have faith. So I keep on asking the questions and wondering if I'll ever meet anyone who can demolish my reluctantly-arrived-at atheism.

John