An Honest Question

[John54]

Thanks for the response, Mike.

How can you believe in gravity?

Gravity is a reliable, testable, measurable fact of the universe. I believe in it because very single day I see it in action, and it always does what I expect it to do. It sticks my feet to the earth. It keeps the Earth going around the sun. It drops apples on the heads of would-be Newtons.

God isn't like that. As mentioned above, if he answers prayers at all, he does so inconsistently.

No. It is for logical reasons.

First of all, look around you. Do you really believe that the Universe came from nothing?

Of course you don't! You're far to smart to believe that an ordered design can come from anything but an intelligent designer.

I don't know if the universe came from nothing or not. Recent theories in physics suggest that it may have done (the positive energy of mass appears to be exactly balanced by the negative energy of gravity - so the net energy of the universe may well be zero).

I see no need for an intelligent designer - and postulating one simply moves the problem one step back. Did God come from nothing?

ID provides no answers.

For me, the bible provides no answers either.

There is no evidence against a "personal, loving God". Even atheists will admit this.

Well, it seems to me there's plenty of evidence, Mike.

"Through logic, you can see that the church concept of an all-loving heavenly father doesn’t hold water. If a divine Maker fashioned everything that exists, he designed breast cancer for women, childhood leukemia, cerebral palsy, leprosy, AIDS, Alzheimer’s disease, and Down’s syndrome. He mandated foxes to rip rabbits apart (bunnies emit a terrible shriek at that moment) and cheetahs to slaughter fawns. No human would be cruel enough to plan such horrors. If a supreme being did so, he’s a monster, not an all-merciful father."

James Haught

John

 

[Secundulus]

did you ever come to any kind of conclusion regarding why God didn't answer that particular prayer, given that He'd answered so many in the past?

I did not come to any satisfying solution. However, there is precedent for this in the writings of St. Paul. He spoke of "the thorn in his flesh" that he continually prayed to have removed. So I have decided to do what St. Paul did and simply trust God.

 

[AllTalkNoAction]

How can you believe in God? . . .

People have been rejecting God's love since the beginning of time ... all the suffering is evidence of that, not of God.

You need to speak to people that actually obey God (forget emotions), see the evidence in their lives !

 

[MikeMcK]

Gravity is a reliable, testable, measurable fact of the universe.

And the result of God's presence and work is an observable fact of the universe.

I believe in it because very single day I see it in action, and it always does what I expect it to do. It sticks my feet to the earth. It keeps the Earth going around the sun. It drops apples on the heads of would-be Newtons.

And I believe in God because I see God in action and the result of His presence and work.

God isn't like that. As mentioned above, if he answers prayers at all, he does so inconsistently.

Answered prayer is a terrible way to determine the existence or non-existence of God for three reasons:

If someone does not have access to God through Jesus Christ, then God does not hear their prayer.

If someone does not pray in accordance with God's will, or with impure motives, then God has not obligation to answer their prayer.

Third, answered prayer is very subjective. The answer one gets may not be the answer they expect.

I don't know if the universe came from nothing or not.

You're sitting at a computer right now.

Where do you think it came from? Did it just materialize out of thin air? Or did it have a designer?

I see no need for an intelligent designer

So then, when you ride down the street and see houses, it seems perfectly reasonable to you that they didn't have a designer?

Did the wood and nails and insulation and dry wall and carpet just come together over millions of years on their own?

Did God come from nothing?

No. God didn't "come from" anything. God has always existed. Remember, God is a spirit, not physical, not made of matter.

For me, the bible provides no answers either.

And what is your background in Bible study?

Well, it seems to me there's plenty of evidence, Mike.

"Through logic, you can see that the church concept of an all-loving heavenly father doesn’t hold water. If a divine Maker fashioned everything that exists, he designed breast cancer for women, childhood leukemia, cerebral palsy, leprosy, AIDS, Alzheimer’s disease, and Down’s syndrome. He mandated foxes to rip rabbits apart (bunnies emit a terrible shriek at that moment) and cheetahs to slaughter fawns. No human would be cruel enough to plan such horrors. If a supreme being did so, he’s a monster, not an all-merciful father."

The problem is that this isn't the church concept at all, but a construct of man.

God did not create disease. Disease is an abberation brought on by sin, which is man's doing, not God's.

 

[John54]

And the result of God's presence and work is an observable fact of the universe.

Well, that's debatable, Mike - but gravity isn't. Nobody doubts gravity exists because its effects are easy to observe. Many people doubt God exists, because the 'evidence' for him isn't there.

You're sitting at a computer right now.

Where do you think it came from? Did it just materialize out of thin air? Or did it have a designer?

It was designed and built by human beings, as were the houses you mention.

No. God didn't "come from" anything. God has always existed. Remember, God is a spirit, not physical, not made of matter.

I see no evidence for spirits of any kind.

And what is your background in Bible study?

I've read it and thought long and hard about it. But I've come to the conclusion that theology is a non-subject. One can study the Lord of the Rings and become an expert on the characters, but the book is still a work of fiction.

I think Jesus probably did exist, but even so in all important respects the bible still seems to me to be a work of fiction.

God did not create disease. Disease is an abberation brought on by sin, which is man's doing, not God's.

My sister's 10 year old child has leukemia. What was her sin?

Do you feel the same is true for earthquakes? Volcanic eruptions? Floods? Famine due to crop failure?

I find it hard to see God's love in things like this, Mike.

John

 

[John54]

You need to speak to people that actually obey God (forget emotions), see the evidence in their lives !

Thanks for the link. I'll take a look.

John

 

[MikeMcK]

Well, that's debatable, Mike - but gravity isn't. Nobody doubts gravity exists because its effects are easy to observe. Many people doubt God exists, because the 'evidence' for him isn't there.

And the evidence for the existence of God is easy to observe.

It was designed and built by human beings, as were the houses you mention.

How do you know? How do you know it didn't just evolve out of something else?

I see no evidence for spirits of any kind.

Way to change the subject.

I've read it and thought long and hard about it.

That wasn't the question. What is your background in Bible study?

Reading it and thinking about it is not the same as studying it.

My sister's 10 year old child has leukemia. What was her sin?

I don't know. I would imagine pretty much the same sins as the rest of us.

IN any event, go back and read my post. You'll see that I didin't say specific illness are caused by specific sins.

I said that disease was not created by God, but entered creation through mankind's sin.

Do you feel the same is true for earthquakes? Volcanic eruptions? Floods? Famine due to crop failure?

That's what the Bible says.

That's why the Bible tells us that the Earth groans, as in childbirth, waiting for Jesus to return and redeem it.

I find it hard to see God's love in things like this, Mike.

If you'd like to start another thread to talk about "How can a loving God allow...", that's fine. I'll be happy to meet you there.

However, the purpose of this thread is the existence of God.

 

[John54]

If you'd like to start another thread to talk about "How can a loving God allow...", that's fine. I'll be happy to meet you there.

However, the purpose of this thread is the existence of God.

Actually, my initial question - the first line of my opening post - was 'How can you believe in God?' And the fact that there is so much suffering in the world is one of the reasons I don't believe in Him - one of the reasons I don't believe he exists.

So the above does seem to be relevant.

I'll answer your other points ASAP - have to take the dog out!

John

 

[MikeMcK]

Actually, my initial question - the first line of my opening post - was 'How can you believe in God?'

...and not "how can a loving God allow..."

And the fact that there is so much suffering in the world is one of the reasons I don't believe in Him - one of the reasons I don't believe he exists.

But that's no evidence that God doesn't exist. It's just evidence that there is suffering.

 

[desmalia]

I think it is very important to consider the full nature of good and evil in order to answer these things.

Here is one interesting read.

 

[John54]

Hello again, Mike:

1. How do you know? How do you know it didn't just evolve out of something else?

2. Way to change the subject.

3. Reading it and thinking about it is not the same as studying it.

4. But that's no evidence that God doesn't exist. It's just evidence that there is suffering

My responses:

1. I know my computer didn't 'just evolve out of something else' because I understand what computers are, how they are made and how I come to have one on my desk.

2. I didn't change the subject. You said: 'God didn't "come from" anything. God has always existed. Remember, God is a spirit, not physical, not made of matter.'

I replied that 'I see no evidence for spirits of any kind.'

In other words, the notion of a non-material God is meaningless to me. I don't think it's true that there are two kinds of 'stuff' in the universe: matter and spirit. I think the truth is there is only matter (and energy, which is another form of matter).

How is that changing the subject?

3. I have read the bible and, after much thought, decided it makes little sense. Its foundations are faulty. Why on earth would I want to study such a book in greater depth?

4. But suffering IS the evidence that God does not exist. Read the quote from Epicurus again.

John

 

[John54]

The Man or Rabbit essay was interesting, Desmalia.

Thanks for the link.

John

 

[Key]

It's partly the problem of evil, Under His Shadow.

As Epicurus said long ago:

"Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; or he can, but does not want to. . . . If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked. . . . If, as they say, God can abolish evil, and God really wants to do it, why is there evil in the world?"

Ahh joy... the problem of "evil".. the answer is simple, but no one wants to hear it.

It works like this, if you provide an answer to someone, and they did not want an answer, any answer they provide they will reject, or hate it, and go around and ask the question again, and again, just as Epicurus did, despite the fact that his little would be paradox was answered, when he asked it.

So now today, many people just bring up this tired old thing, and dust it off and hope to try and put a new coat of paint on it, and when they see that it has been answered many times, by many people, they just reject the answers, because they do not want this "puzzle" answered.

So, I guess I could provide an answer for you, but, to what end or what avail?

But I also feel that, if there were a God - one who loves humanity, cares for us, intervenes in our lives - the world would be a very different place from the one in which we find ourselves.

Why?

Epicurus was far from alone in expounding the problem of evil, Under His Shadow. He was just the first thinker to do so in print, so it's sometimes called "the Epicurean paradox" or "the riddle of Epicurus."

I know, hasn't this fallen into the PRATT category yet?

He draws the conclusion that the existence of evil is incompatible with the existence of a God who cares about mankind, assuming absolute concepts of benevolence, knowledge, and power.

Oooo a "Box God Paradox".. love those, it shows the limits of the Human mind to such great extents, it also shows the lack of thinking that "Thinkers" do.

It's like the concept of a square circle, or a triangle with four sides. Self-contradictory and logically impossible.

John

So?

I do not see how they relate to anything, other then, that people that challenge the Christian Faith, do not seem to grasp God at all.

Gravity is a reliable, testable, measurable fact of the universe. I believe in it because very single day I see it in action, and it always does what I expect it to do. It sticks my feet to the earth. It keeps the Earth going around the sun. It drops apples on the heads of would-be Newtons.

Would you notice it, if no one told you about it?

What if I said this was not Gravity, but God, could you challenge that?

Could you prove that God is not the power behind your sticking to the Earth, and all those other things?

God isn't like that. As mentioned above, if he answers prayers at all, he does so inconsistently.

This has already been Answered.

I might suggest you read the forum a little bit, before you ask these types of questions.

I see no need for an intelligent designer - and postulating one simply moves the problem one step back. Did God come from nothing?

Another lovely PRATT. God is beyond Time, as such, God exists outside our limited scope of Liner Time, and thus God is not only the beginning, but equally the End at the same time.

But this might be too much a mental Paradox for many people to Grasp.

Hence the nature of God.

"Through logic, you can see that the church concept of an all-loving heavenly father doesn’t hold water. If a divine Maker fashioned everything that exists, he designed breast cancer for women, childhood leukemia, cerebral palsy, leprosy, AIDS, Alzheimer’s disease, and Down’s syndrome. He mandated foxes to rip rabbits apart (bunnies emit a terrible shriek at that moment) and cheetahs to slaughter fawns. No human would be cruel enough to plan such horrors. If a supreme being did so, he’s a monster, not an all-merciful father."

James Haught

John

Really? Humans are quite adapt at being the cruelist animals on this planet, we kill our children, we find new and better ways to torture and kill each other, as well as all other life forms of this planet.

It was a Human that built the Glue Trap, which once an animal steps on it, they get stuck, and then thrash about, ripping off limbs, breaking their bones and other parts of their body during this, until they finally exhausted, broken, and normally bloody, they fall into the glue and starve to death.

Maybe your rose colored glasses are just way too tinted to see the reality of Humanity, how cruel, and disgusting we really are, sure, there is a facade of civility, and development, but that is an illusion, that we blind ourselves with.

Sure, some of us are "civil" but then again, the developer of the "Glue Trap" I bet wore a lab coat, and was a civil as anyone else.

But spare me this "God is so cruel" issue, as we poison and kill each other, as we rape, beat, torture our fellow human, as be destroy entire habitats so we can have our big houses, as be pollute the water with fossil fuel because we want our boats, and bring about a slow painful death to the very planet we live on, all because..... we want to...

So spare me... that Humans have any shred of "decency"...

I rescue dogs from Pit Fights... I know .. just exactly how "civil" and how "cruel" humans are...

How they can all laugh as a dog defecates and urinates upon itself from wounds, and how they cheer as the owner kills the dog by crushing it's chest under his boot, and then throwing it against a brick wall.

Yah... spare me.. any level of Human Dignity... Sorry.. I have see this "Dignity" first hand.... have you?

4. But suffering IS the evidence that God does not exist. Read the quote from Epicurus again.

No... that is just Evidence that someone had no idea what they were talking about, when they decided to try and prove God did not exist.

Sorry, Epicurus, was an idiot that really had no idea what he was talking about, sorry to break that to you.

I hope I have given you some insight and things to think about.

God Bless

Key.

 

[desmalia]

The Man or Rabbit essay was interesting, Desmalia.

Thanks for the link.

John

NP, John. If you found that interesting, I encourage you to pick up a copy of "Mere Christianity" sometime. It's a great read, and very logical.

Anyway, I think it's great that you're here asking questions. I hope you find all the answers you are seeking.

 

[John54]

I hope I have given you some insight and things to think about.

Insight? I'm afraid not, Key.

The hectoring tone doesn't help, but the main problem is that your post is full of logical errors.

I'll just deal with the rather lengthy one at the end. You've misunderstood the point of the quotation from James Haught. Neither he nor I said anything about humanity being particularly pleasant - but humanity didn't create the world. According to your belief, God did.

So it was God, not humanity, who introduced the horrors listed - and millions more besides.

Unless, of course, God is a fiction. If that's the case, everything we see around us begins to make sense.

John

 

[Secundulus]

I agree that Mere Christianity is a very good book to read. The author, C.S. Lewis, started out as an athiest and later became a Christian. He was also a pretty smart guy and was a professor at Oxford (I think) in the middle of the last century. He was also the author of Narnia which you may remember was recently made into a movie.

If I remember correctly, he also addresses many of your questions about evil in the book.

If you are interested, you should be able to find this book at nearly any bookstore.

 

[Key]

Insight? I'm afraid not, Key.

The hectoring tone doesn't help, but the main problem is that your post is full of logical errors.

I'll just deal with the rather lengthy one at the end. You've misunderstood the point of the quotation from James Haught. Neither he nor I said anything about humanity being particularly pleasant - but humanity didn't create the world. According to your belief, God did.

So it was God, not humanity, who introduced the horrors listed - and millions more besides.

Unless, of course, God is a fiction. If that's the case, everything we see around us begins to make sense.

John

Would you care to put froth some of my "Logical Errors"?


However, Beyond the "Evils of Man", which is a product of our free will.. there are no Horrors in the World, so I am not sure what you are talking about.

God Bless

Key

 

[Key]

"Through logic, you can see that the church concept of an all-loving heavenly father doesn’t hold water. If a divine Maker fashioned everything that exists, he designed breast cancer for women, childhood leukemia, cerebral palsy, leprosy, AIDS, Alzheimer’s disease, and Down’s syndrome. He mandated foxes to rip rabbits apart (bunnies emit a terrible shriek at that moment) and cheetahs to slaughter fawns. No human would be cruel enough to plan such horrors. If a supreme being did so, he’s a monster, not an all-merciful father."

James Haught

Notice what I put in RED, and that was what I was addressing, and the truth of the matter is, Not only are Humans able to and "cruel enough" to design such "Horrors" we could improve upon the existing and have made far worse things. It is something we as humans excel at. Hence his very foundation and accusation is false.

As such, the premise of James Haught's statement, that this is a "Cruel" God, is false, as God compared to Humans is benevolent, even after making "all the Horrors" in the world today, because Humans have found ways to Trump them.

In Case you missed the Point I was trying to Bring Forth.

God Bless

Key

 

[Maggie893]

Hi John54,

I'm curious about your beliefs, or lack of in God, if you don't mind indulging a question or two. It might help in responding in a way that would meet you where you are.

Am I correct that you don't believe in God because evil exists?

 

[John54]

As such, the premise of James Haught's statement, that this is a "Cruel" God, is false, as God compared to Humans is benevolent, even after making "all the Horrors" in the world today, because Humans have found ways to Trump them.

In Case you missed the Point I was trying to Bring Forth.

Key, I'm not sure if you genuinely don't see what Haught is saying or if you're simply putting up a sophistic smokescreen.

Look, it's not complicated.

God is supposed to be the God of Love - a supreme being who is 100% totally, absolutely good.

But if he exists, he has created a world full of horrors - and nobody who walks around with eyes open can be unaware of that.

'Charles Darwin lost his faith with the help of a wasp. "I cannot persuade myself," Darwin wrote, ---that a beneficent and omnipotent God would have designedly created the Ichneumonidae with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of caterpillars." Actually, Darwin's gradual loss of faith, which he downplayed for fear of upsetting his devout wife Emma, had more complex causes.

His reference to the Ichneumonidae was aphoristic. The macabre habits to which he referred are shared by their cousins the digger wasps. A female digger wasp not only lays her egg in a caterpillar (or grasshopper or bee) so that her larva can feed on it. According to Fabre she also carefully guides her sting into each ganglion of the prey's central nervous system so as to paralyse it but not kill it. This way, the meat keeps fresh.

It is not known whether the paralysis acts as a general anaesthetic, or if it is like curare in just freezing the victim's ability to move. If the latter, the prey might be aware of being eaten alive from inside, but unable to move a muscle to do anything about it. This sounds savagely cruel but nature is not cruel, only pitilessly indifferent. This is one of the hardest lessons for humans to learn. We cannot accept that things might be neither good nor evil, neither cruel nor kind, but simply indifferent to all suffering, lacking all purpose.'

(Richard Dawkins)

John