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An Honest Question
- Thread starter John54
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I'm a zoologist by training, though I have studied other branches of science in less depth.
Which I suppose begs the evolution question. But no - this really doesn't cause a conflict for me .
I would be happy to explain why, but I don't want to sidetrack your thread into yet another creation debate!!
But I see science as a way of understanding what God has made - and the more I learn about the details of this world, the more I am drawn to worship the One who made it in all its incredible intricacy!
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Secundulus said:
That must mean that post-faith 'reason' is different from pre-faith 'reason'.
Can you explain how they differ, Secundulus?
John
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Criada said:
I know the creation/evolution debate can snowball rapidly, but I have just three questions.
1. Do you accept the theory that the Earth is billions of years old?
2. Do you accept that Darwinian evolution takes place?
3. Do you accept that the bible denies both of the above?
John
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Secundulus
Well-Known Member
Sorry, I put this in the wrong thread and then moved it.
Reason is reason. There is only one kind. What is different is the evidence you can detect. Here we will begin to run into difficulty because you will now say that what I call evidence is nothing more than emotion. But I really can't help you more than that.
And I understand reason and evidence. I have a degree in Electrical Engineering and have worked as a Statistical Analyst, designing and leading studies, in a professional setting.
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name said:
Fair enough, Secundulus.
It is confusing, though, because it sounds like what you'd consider 'evidence' when wearing your God hat is not the same kind of 'evidence' you'd consider when wearing the Hat of Statistical Analysis.
Do you think it's possible that you believe because you want to believe so badly?
John
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Given the regularity with which dating methods are declared unreliable, I would not like to say how old it is! But certainly more than 6000 years, which is, I assume, what you mean!
yes , on a micro- evolution level.
Macro-evolution requires a leap of faith which I was unable to make as an agnostic, not for any biblical reasons!
No! The Bible does not give an age for the earth - this has been worked out in various ways over the years, using various assumptions which I cannot find in the Bible.
And I cannot see any reason why the creatures God made could not adapt and change with changing conditions on earth.
I'm not sure whether that helps - will be glad to discuss it further if you so desire.
God bless you.
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Secundulus
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I don't think so. The reason is that stuff I ask for in prayer is answered more often than than I think can be accounted for by coincidence. One might say that this might be proof of a higher being but not the Christian God. My response would be that I pray specifically to the Christian God and then get responses.
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Desmalia said:
Over the years, far more books than I can remember.
During the past year or so I've read Ninian Smart's 'The Religious Experience of Mankind' - Paul Johnson's 'A History of Christianity' - Richard Dawkins' 'A Devil's Chaplain' - and I've just ordered Daniel Dennett's 'Breaking the Spell'.
I also flipped through an old copy of Watchtower I found when I was clearing out some junk a few weeks back. That was... interesting!
Criada said:
Thanks, Criada. I may well take you up on that at a later date.
Secundulus said:
I envy you. I remember praying for stuff when I was a kid, but God always had His earplugs rammed in right to the drum.
John
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Secundulus
Well-Known Member
One thing to meditate on (from reason’s standpoint) although it is in itself not the proof you are looking for, is this.
Consider the beginnings of Christianity. In c. 32 AD there was a man named Jesus, (itinerant preacher) with 12 disciples and some others, men and women, that followed him around. He was from an obscure religion on the fringe of the Roman Empire. And he was teaching some anti-establishment things.
Some might argue that he didn’t really exist. But no matter who or what you think he was, it is not reasonable at all to think that he was just a figment of somebody’s imagination considering what began to happen very soon after his reported death. It seems to me that to try and deny his existence is as anti-reason as some things that atheists accuse the Christians of.
He was executed and within 36 years (consider the available technology) the belief that he was God incarnate had spread to the far reaches of the empire, all the was from Britannia, to Africa, and throughout Asia Minor. It reached right into the Capitol City of Rome itself. It was spread not by the government nor by established religion, but by one Pharisee who was a Roman citizen, an ex-tax collector, and ten other assorted fishermen and working class men.
And what did they promise. Not fame glory and booty, such as Islam promised. Not status in the empire as some of the Pagan Religions promised. It simply promised eternal life if you followed the teachings of the God of Israel, that obscure place that many had probably never heard of.
But what did it promise you right now, in this life. Nothing at all, except to give up some of the fun things you used to like to do and possible persecution by the “world”,
And in 68AD (only 36 years from the moment it began) the emperor Nero began the first persecution and you saw Christians being executed in the arena and being burned as human torches in to light Nero’s Palace. (This is documented historical fact from outside Christian sources) Keep in mind that many of these people could have avoided this fate if they had renounced their faith or just abandoned it. But they didn’t. They, and all the martyred Apostles gained absolutely nothing in the form of fame and fortune in this world.
Where is the reason in this. From a distance of 2000 years its easy to say we are duped by emotionalism or being born into it. But these people were not born into it and were alive with first hand witnesses who suffered the same fate.
Where is the reason here?
Consider the beginnings of Christianity. In c. 32 AD there was a man named Jesus, (itinerant preacher) with 12 disciples and some others, men and women, that followed him around. He was from an obscure religion on the fringe of the Roman Empire. And he was teaching some anti-establishment things.
Some might argue that he didn’t really exist. But no matter who or what you think he was, it is not reasonable at all to think that he was just a figment of somebody’s imagination considering what began to happen very soon after his reported death. It seems to me that to try and deny his existence is as anti-reason as some things that atheists accuse the Christians of.
He was executed and within 36 years (consider the available technology) the belief that he was God incarnate had spread to the far reaches of the empire, all the was from Britannia, to Africa, and throughout Asia Minor. It reached right into the Capitol City of Rome itself. It was spread not by the government nor by established religion, but by one Pharisee who was a Roman citizen, an ex-tax collector, and ten other assorted fishermen and working class men.
And what did they promise. Not fame glory and booty, such as Islam promised. Not status in the empire as some of the Pagan Religions promised. It simply promised eternal life if you followed the teachings of the God of Israel, that obscure place that many had probably never heard of.
But what did it promise you right now, in this life. Nothing at all, except to give up some of the fun things you used to like to do and possible persecution by the “world”,
And in 68AD (only 36 years from the moment it began) the emperor Nero began the first persecution and you saw Christians being executed in the arena and being burned as human torches in to light Nero’s Palace. (This is documented historical fact from outside Christian sources) Keep in mind that many of these people could have avoided this fate if they had renounced their faith or just abandoned it. But they didn’t. They, and all the martyred Apostles gained absolutely nothing in the form of fame and fortune in this world.
Where is the reason in this. From a distance of 2000 years its easy to say we are duped by emotionalism or being born into it. But these people were not born into it and were alive with first hand witnesses who suffered the same fate.
Where is the reason here?
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desmalia
sounds like somebody's got a case of the mondays
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How many Christian books have you read about Christianity? For instance, CS Lewis' Mere Christianity is a pretty standard one to look to for basic answers about the faith, and actually I'm surprised you haven't read it yet in your journey. If you want to know about a particular faith, look to authors (especially renowned ones) of that faith. You won't learn much about Christianity from the Watchtower, just as you won't learn about Islam by reading a Christian author, or a Hindu author, etc. And even more so, you won't learn about Christian faith from an Atheist author. Aside from Lewis, I would also like to recommend to you the writings of Ravi Zacharias. You sound like someone who seeks to understand logically what our faith is about, and I think you'll find his work to be very useful. He deals extensively with science, philosophy, and religions of the world.
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Secundulus
Well-Known Member
Another good book, with a different flavor, is Confessions by St. Augustine of Hippo.
It is available here online:
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1101.htm or
http://www.stoa.org/hippo/
Or you can get it from many bookstores or Amazon.
This book, written in the early fifth century chronicles his faith journey into Christian belief. He later became Bishop of Hippo, in modern day Tunisia, and was one of the most influential of the Church Fathers.
It is available here online:
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1101.htm or
http://www.stoa.org/hippo/
Or you can get it from many bookstores or Amazon.
This book, written in the early fifth century chronicles his faith journey into Christian belief. He later became Bishop of Hippo, in modern day Tunisia, and was one of the most influential of the Church Fathers.
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Thanks to all for the reading suggestions.
Looks like I'll be busy for the next few weeks!
John
Looks like I'll be busy for the next few weeks!
John
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OK, I've managed to get hold of a copy of Mere Christianity and have started reading it.
Interesting so far.
John
Interesting so far.
John
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There are a few assumptions that concern me. When I've read a little more, I'll probably post a question or two.
John
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I'd better re-read it!
I am reading "Surprised by Joy" at the moment - you might find that interesting, since it follows Lewis's journey from atheism to faith.
Mere Christianity possibly assumes some faith in the reader - though I can't actually remember in detail!
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