An Honest Question

[John54]

OK. What is it in your past experience that tells you that your computer didn't appear out of nothing?

Why are you trying so hard to avoid answering the question?

Strange. I answer your questions, and then you tell I'm trying hard not to answer them. However, I'm a patient man.

In my past experience I have seen computers being built. I've even helped to build one. So I have no reason to think the machine I'm currently using was not built in the same way.

I would have the intellectual integrity to study the book, rather than just casually reading a few lines here and there and proclaiming it false.

As I said, I've read the bible. I've read many parts of it several times. My reading of the bible has not been restricted to 'a few lines here and there'.

People tell me all the time that there are contradictions in the Bible, but when these "contradictions" are examined, it becomes clear that they're not contradictions at all, but just a misunderstanding based on the fact that the person didn't take the time to study the text out for themselves.

Really? What about the Catholic Church's own document 'The Gift of Scripture' which tells the faithful some parts of the bible are not actually true?

'...the first 11 chapters of Genesis, in which two different and at times conflicting stories of creation are told, are among those that this country’s Catholic bishops insist cannot be “historical”. At most, they say, they may contain “historical traces”. '

John

 

[Secundulus]

Really? What about the Catholic Church's own document 'The Gift of Scripture' which tells the faithful some parts of the bible are not actually true?

'...the first 11 chapters of Genesis, in which two different and at times conflicting stories of creation are told, are among those that this country’s Catholic bishops insist cannot be “historical”. At most, they say, they may contain “historical traces”. '

The Bible is not a history book, and those who take evey single word a literal history are mistaken. Some of it is history, some of it is poetry, some of it is allegory, some of it is personal coorespondence to groups of people, some of it is simply wisdom sayings. What they all have in common is that they contain the spiritual truths about God. We believe that those various people who wrote the different parts were inspired by God to write the truths down.

 

[John54]

Who ever said that Christians were immune to natural disasters?

My point is, Mike, that in a universe created and run by a supernatural God, there would be no need for natural disasters. Such disasters have caused believers problems for two thousand years, because they cast doubt on God's loving nature.

But is it really reasonable or logical to say that you reject evidence that you haven't even examined, or that you would instead, accept subjective experience?

When you walk out of your door every morning, do you pause before taking a step into the street and wonder if the street might not really be a snake disguised to look like a street? It might be. You haven't examined the evidence yet, so how can you take that step in safety?

I have no more reason to believe that my computer suddenly created itself from nothing than I have to believe the street is a snake. We apply reason and logic to situations that require them, not to situations that are clearly imaginary or ridiculous.

John

 

[John54]

The Bible is not a history book, and those who take evey single word a literal history are mistaken.

I agree, Secundulus. My post was a response to Mike who said the following:

'People tell me all the time that there are contradictions in the Bible, but when these "contradictions" are examined, it becomes clear that they're not contradictions at all, but just a misunderstanding based on the fact that the person didn't take the time to study the text out for themselves.'

I was pointing out to him that the Church itself agrees the bible contains contradictions and is not meant to be literally true.

John

 

[MikeMcK]

My point is, Mike, that in a universe created and run by a supernatural God, there would be no need for natural disasters. Such disasters have caused believers problems for two thousand years, because they cast doubt on God's loving nature.

"Believers" (whatever that means) perhaps, but among those who know the scriptures, we recognize that natural disasters out of any sort of need, but as a consequence of living in a world that has a fallen nature, do to sin.

I have no more reason to believe that my computer suddenly created itself from nothing than I have to believe the street is a snake. We apply reason and logic to situations that require them, not to situations that are clearly imaginary or ridiculous.

John

But you believe the universe came from nothing. Why not your computer?

 

[KarrieTex]

How can you believe in God?

I've been an atheist for many years, and it seems so obvious to me that God is a fiction - but I know intelligent people who do believe. From what they say it appears they do so for emotional, rather than logical, reasons.

So I'm interested in gathering a few thoughts from members of this forum.

What is it that makes you so sure there is a loving, personal God when there seems to be such strong evidence against that concept?

Thanks in advance,

John

I would say that I believe because I can physically feel Him.

It is instinctive for me to believe and know there is God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit.

 

[MikeMcK]

In my past experience I have seen computers being built. I've even helped to build one. So I have no reason to think the machine I'm currently using was not built in the same way.

So then, it sounds like you understand that such a complex machine as a computer needs a designer. Is that right?

As I said, I've read the bible. I've read many parts of it several times. My reading of the bible has not been restricted to 'a few lines here and there'.

But you haven't taken the time or effort to study it.

Again, reading something casually is not the same as studying it.

Really? What about the Catholic Church's own document 'The Gift of Scripture' which tells the faithful some parts of the bible are not actually true?

If you have a problem with Roman Catholicism, take it up with Roman Catholicism.

Roman Catholicism tells it's members a lot of things that aren't true and, remember, Roman Catholicism accepts the Bible only inasmuch as it confirms their own beliefs and traditions.

So it's perfectly natural that that organization would tell it's members that the Bible isn't true.

After all, what else do you do when one of your most common practices is praying to dead people, and the Bible strictly condemns praying to the dead? What do you do when you're telling your followers that Mary is God's mother, but the Bible tells us that God has no mother or father?

Of course you're going to say that the Bible is wrong. Otherwise, you'd have to admit that Roman Catholicism is wrong. And, believe me, you're not going to find a Roman Catholic who'll ever disagree with their organization or it's pope.

'...the first 11 chapters of Genesis, in which two different and at times conflicting stories of creation are told

OK. Why don't you show us what these two stories are, and explain to us the "conflict"?

 

[John54]

So then, it sounds like you understand that such a complex machine as a computer needs a designer. Is that right?

Yes, Mike. A complex machine like my computer needs a designer. And to save you the bother of flashing your trump card, the answer to your next question (so how can you believe that something as complex as a human being doesn't need a designer?) is evolution.

Again, reading something casually is not the same as studying it.

One minute you have me 'reading a few lines' - the next you have me 'reading it casually...'

I read the bible with care and attention, Mike. I read many parts of it over and over. I know it better than many of the Christians I've met. That may not qualify as 'study' - but it's neither casual nor a line or two here and there.

OK. Why don't you show us what these two stories are, and explain to us the "conflict"?

Are you not aware of them? I thought you'd studied the bible?

John

 

[MikeMcK]

Yes, Mike. A complex machine like my computer needs a designer.

OK. So, how is it that a computer needs a designer, but it's perfectly reasonable to assume that the universe does not?

One minute you have me 'reading a few lines' - the next you have me 'reading it casually...'

I can only go by what you tell me.

I read the bible with care and attention, Mike.

I understand that. You read parts of the Bible.

Now, again, simply reading something casually is not the same as studying it.

Are you not aware of them? I thought you'd studied the bible?

I have studied the Bible for twenty years and I'm not aware of two conflicting creation accounts in Genesis.

How about you enlighten me?

 

[Digit]

Hey guys, may I just remind you that debating isn't allowed in this forum, and I can feel this thread on the verge of getting closed if an admin notices. So, rather than leave John with a rather negative opinion of Christian outreach, by arguing him into submission, can we just explain why we believe in God, and leave it at that? As afterall, that was his initial question. If he then wishes to enquire about particular issues, there are other forums he can post in, or new threads he can start here about other issues he has.

My parting comments will be along the lines of:

John, there are over 35000 denominations of Christianity, and from the outside, we can look like a fairly disagreeable lot, as like Mike rightly points out, some aren't very Biblical in nature. My main point, is that Christianity is a personal relationship with our living God. If you don't have any protests about the core messages of the ten commandments, then really, I see no major issue that cannot be overcome by some open-minded and honest seeking. It's pitched as a personal relationship with God, because it's between you and Him, no one else. In that regard I would encourage you not to let yourself get discouraged or frustrated by the myriad of options presented to you, as I did way back when. For example I believe in Creationism, not evolution. I believe in the literal telling of Genesis and the 6 day creation events and so on. Mike may not believe these things, he may belive in Theistic Evolution, and a figurative telling of Genesis. We do however both believe in God, Jesus, the resurrection and upholding God's laws in our lives. That's the important thing, not the way we got to that conclusion.

I am imposing this example on Mike, as just that and example, I neither know nor am that worried about his personal beliefs, I'm just immensely pleased he's a brother in Christ.

Try not to worry too much what your brothers are doing, and instead, if you wish, to seek the more important truth.

Cheers!
Digit

 

[MikeMcK]

Hey guys, may I just remind you that debating isn't allowed in this forum, and I can feel this thread on the verge of getting closed if an admin notices.

Good point. He asked. I answered. That's it for me.

 

[MikeMcK]

...

 

[John54]

Hey guys, may I just remind you that debating isn't allowed in this forum, and I can feel this thread on the verge of getting closed if an admin notices. So, rather than leave John with a rather negative opinion of Christian outreach, by arguing him into submission, can we just explain why we believe in God, and leave it at that? As afterall, that was his initial question. If he then wishes to enquire about particular issues, there are other forums he can post in, or new threads he can start here about other issues he has.

Fair enough, Digit.

I wouldn't want to see this thread closed. It's been very informative so far.

Mike, the main conflicts in Genesis have to do with whether humans were created before or after the other animals. Genesis 1:27-27 says after, but 2:4-25 says before. There are also conflicting accounts of exactly when Eve appeared on the scene.

By the way - I think you were wise to edit out the comment you made above re the 35000 denominations of Christianity, Mike. There do seem to be an awful lot of disagreements amongst you Christians.

John

 

[MikeMcK]

Mike, the main conflicts in Genesis have to do with whether humans were created before or after the other animals. Genesis 1:27-27 says after, but 2:4-25 says before.

Actually, if you read the text, it's true that they do describe the events in a different order, but neither ascribes an order to the creation of man and animals.

This is precisely the point I was trying to make about the difference between simply reading something casually, and taking the time to study it.

If you had studied it, rather than just relying on something some anti-Christian website says, you would have known this.

There are also conflicting accounts of exactly when Eve appeared on the scene.

I sure hope they're better than the last two "conflicting accounts".

By the way - I think you were wise to edit out the comment you made above re the 35000 denominations of Christianity, Mike.

I edited it out because I didn't want Digit to think that I was criticizing him, personally. I was not.

I was simply making the case that the myth of 35,000 denominations has been debunked repeatedly.

There do seem to be an awful lot of disagreements amongst you Christians.

No doubt. The Bible tells us that we're free to disagree over what it calls "disputable matters" and that we should extend the liberty to disagree to others.

However, the fact that we do agree on the essential doctrines shows that there is great unity.

 

[aflower4God]

How can you believe in God?

I've been an atheist for many years, and it seems so obvious to me that God is a fiction - but I know intelligent people who do believe. From what they say it appears they do so for emotional, rather than logical, reasons.

So I'm interested in gathering a few thoughts from members of this forum.

What is it that makes you so sure there is a loving, personal God when there seems to be such strong evidence against that concept?

Thanks in advance,

John

Hi there John,

Okay it is like this for me...I feel the Holy Spirit in me. I also know that the Bible is 100% truth. I have also seen so many miricles throughout my life time. Now some were small and some were large. Example, my best friend was involved in a severe car accedent where as she walked away from that accedent and she only has 2 tiny scars on her. So many people around her are at awe about how she was able to walk away from that accedent. That is just one of the many things that the Good Lord has done. I know when I was not a beleiver I prayed for many signs such as causing a rare weather events and such happened. God is all loving, I know that ever since I became a Christian I have been happier!
God is awesome friend!!! I hope that I had shed some light onto your question!

God bless ya!

 

[John54]

Actually, if you read the text, it's true that they do describe the events in a different order, but neither ascribes an order to the creation of man and animals.

Genesis 1:27-27

And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And God said, Let us make man in our image.... So God created man in his own image.

Genesis 2:4-25

And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

Seems fairly clear to me, Mike.

John

 

[John54]

God bless ya!

Thanks for that, SH - and thanks for the response.

John

 

[aflower4God]

Thanks for that, SH - and thanks for the response.

John

Glad to be of a help to ya dear friend! God bless

 

[MikeMcK]

Genesis 1:27-27

And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And God said, Let us make man in our image.... So God created man in his own image.

Genesis 2:4-25

And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

Seems fairly clear to me, Mike.

John

You're right. It is clear. It is equally clear that, although the two events are descibed in different orders, no order is assigned to the events, themselves.

 

[Criada]

Sorry - can I take a step back here, and ask two questions (with apologies if you have already answered them - I got a little lost in the barrage of posts between you and Mike!)

Firstly, what kind of evidence are you looking for? Because all the evidence is going to be subjective, and easily explained away as "special pleading" and therefore invalid. And no matter how many answers to prayer I tell you about, they can always be put down to coincidence, fate, luck.. So what is it that you are asking for?

Secondly (and forgive me if you don't want to answer this one!) - why?
Are you seriously seeking answers, or trying to prove apoint that you have already made up your mind on?

God bless you