An Honest Question

[John54]

Hi John54,

I'm curious about your beliefs, or lack of in God, if you don't mind indulging a question or two. It might help in responding in a way that would meet you where you are.

Am I correct that you don't believe in God because evil exists?

Hi, Maggie.

I wouldn't use the term 'evil' myself - the only reason I raised it is because the concept I wanted to express is known as the Problem of Evil.

The fact that the world is full of suffering and what people call 'evil' is one of the reasons I think the traditional Christian God is a very unlikely concept, yes.

But there are other, more basic, reasons I think He's a fiction.

It seems to me pretty clear why man created God, and I understand the psychological needs God (and a belief in life after death) are intended to satisfy.

It also seems to me that the theory of God is a very poor theory when it comes to explaining the reality of the universe. Science does a much better job, and gradually God is having to retreat into smaller and smaller gaps as our knowledge of the true nature of things increases.

John

 

[Maggie893]

Hi, Maggie.

I wouldn't use the term 'evil' myself - the only reason I raised it is because the concept I wanted to express is known as the Problem of Evil.

The fact that the world is full of suffering and what people call 'evil' is one of the reasons I think the traditional Christian God is a very unlikely concept, yes.

But there are other, more basic, reasons I think He's a fiction.

It seems to me pretty clear why man created God, and I understand the psychological needs God (and a belief in life after death) are intended to satisfy.

It also seems to me that the theory of God is a very poor theory when it comes to explaining the reality of the universe. Science does a much better job, and gradually God is having to retreat into smaller and smaller gaps as our knowledge of the true nature of things increases.

John

Ok John,

Thanks for that. I was a bit surprised to find an atheist who's primary issue is the issue of evil since that assumes a moral absolute.

It is interesting that you find some level of moral absolutes as you state :"
I base my ethical systems on the worth human beings (not God) have assigned to life, Gracealone.

I don't think we need a deity to tell us it's wrong to kill, lie or steal. Human beings have always had the potential to use their minds to determine what is kind and reasonable.

How would you explain that obvious univeral and natural moral law?

Additionally, the principle of causality would also seem to me to be a motivating factor in believing in at least a first, higher power.

I've not ever had a lack of belief in a God of source so it's difficult for me to understand how you could deny the obvious cause and effect logic that even scientist suse to presume an initial source for every effect they research.

So the issue you have isn't really the Christian God as much as it is any God?

 

[John54]

So the issue you have isn't really the Christian God as much as it is any God?

That's correct, Maggie.

If God is defined as a supernatural being that is self-aware and concerned about the fate of humanity - that's not a God I can believe in.

1.30 am here in the UK. Will answer your other points in the morning.

G'night.

John

 

[Maggie893]

That's correct, Maggie.

If God is defined as a supernatural being that is self-aware and concerned about the fate of humanity - that's not a God I can believe in.

1.30 am here in the UK. Will answer your other points in the morning.

G'night.

John

I would first suggest that since you are an "atheist" you don't have to live with anyone elses definition. I would just think that you'd at least have to believe in a supernatural creator, regardless of his personality or identity.

But go to sleep, it's only 8:30pm and I'm off to bed myself! Early morning for me.

Goodnight!

 

[Criada]

John - it's now 2.50, and my brain has turned to cotton wool - just wanted to subscribe to your thread so I can put my oar in later!
I have struggled with the same things you are, and there really are answers!
(Also would like to second the recommendation of "Mere Christianity", which I am currently re-reading!)

God bless you

 

[MikeMcK]

1. I know my computer didn't 'just evolve out of something else' because I understand what computers are, how they are made and how I come to have one on my desk.

So, what part of your understanding tells you that it didn't evolve out of nothing.

2. I didn't change the subject.

You did, but that's another story.

How is

3. I have read the bible and, after much thought, decided it makes little sense. Its foundations are faulty. Why on earth would I want to study such a book in greater depth?

Because reading something casually is not the same as studying it and if you're just reading it casually, without concern for context or the message involved, of course it's going to be a mess.

The Bible was never meant to be read like a novel, or just flipping a page open here or there.

If you haven't studied it, then you have no grounds to dismiss it.

4. But suffering IS the evidence that God does not exist.

Suffering is not evidence that God doesn't exist.

It's evidence that suffering exists. You can say that it's evidence that evil exists. You can even say that it's evidence that God is not good, but it is not evidence that God doesn't exist.

Read the Epicurious quote again.

Believe me, I'm familiar with it. Where it falls short is that it neglects the fact that God has done something about evil and will do something about evil.

 

[Digit]

How can you believe in God?

I've been an atheist for many years, and it seems so obvious to me that God is a fiction - but I know intelligent people who do believe. From what they say it appears they do so for emotional, rather than logical, reasons.

So I'm interested in gathering a few thoughts from members of this forum.

What is it that makes you so sure there is a loving, personal God when there seems to be such strong evidence against that concept?

Thanks in advance,

John

Heya John,

I actually meant to reply to this a few days ago, when I first saw it, and then I got sidetracked. Sorry about that.

In response to your question however, for me there are two main reasons, yet I will wager these differ largely between people.

First of all, it just makes sense. For me, it was like looking at a puzzle, with lots of people telling me how to solve it, and there being something amazing that I wanted, if I could solve it. Yet no matter how I tried, each solution came very close to the complete picture, but just could not finish it 100%. Then a complete stranger to me came along, told me how I could do it if I wanted to, and suddenly it all made sense. I fitted all the pieces in and suddenly I was 100% satisfied, and the puzzle was complete.

I could touch on several things, but recently I have had many major changes in my life, and God was at the center of all of them, and I was quite startled at how informative the Bible was, and how much relative information and advice it offered. As well as reasons for how and why things happen. I look around the world today, and to be honest I don't like it that much. I can only dream of a world that man lives in, which upholds God's absolute laws. Many people have issues with this, and cite things like Christianity's stance on abortion and so on, as to complex issues that God offers no solution too, yet if we lived by His laws, abortion wouldn't even be a problem, like it is today.

My second reason, as to why I can believe in God, despite as you say much contrasting information and teachings, is that after reading a bit I find that there are in fact very good and believable counter-points for, as you say, contradicting evidence. In fact, I got lost for a little while absorbed reading materials on these things, and recently have been reading a book called The Battle for Truth. Something dawned on me today, which was that when looking at the overview of four very popular worldviews, I can see that 3 of them, share a great deal in common beliefs. Yet, the fourth, Christianity has radically different beliefs for each doctrine. It just struck me as being very similar to my puzzle experience, whereby everyone had an almost complete picture of the world, and yet it lacked something. However God's view, is so radically different, yet wholly complete.

I can't help but love that.

All the best,
Digit

 

[Digit]

I should also add, and I don't wish to get into a debate here as in this forum debating isn't allowed, but MikeMcK touched on a good point. I have to be careful here, as I'm not really an authority on the Bible, but I did notice that recently, it has been revealing more and more of it's depth to me. Yet before, when I had read it, during moments where I wondered what is so great about it, I must say it confused me greatly.

What I can suggest however, is if you wish to perhaps not study it, yet see what I mean, is to do a search on something in the Bible on Google. Let's say, do a search on what the Bible has to say about Hell, and read what a few Christian sites say about it. Because that was quite an eye opener for me, in that so many things I thought I knew, were in fact not Biblical. It's as if, man has made up his own version, which has been influenced by media, and that's what I knew, yet the reality is far different. Imagine if you will, how many areas could be so different, and then ask yourself if you think it's worth finding out more?

Digit

 

[Under_His_Shadow]

Epicurus was far from alone in expounding the problem of evil, Under His Shadow. He was just the first thinker to do so in print, so it's sometimes called "the Epicurean paradox" or "the riddle of Epicurus."

He draws the conclusion that the existence of evil is incompatible with the existence of a God who cares about mankind, assuming absolute concepts of benevolence, knowledge, and power.

It's like the concept of a square circle, or a triangle with four sides. Self-contradictory and logically impossible.

John

Whether you unconsciously or deliberately missed and avoided my point regarding the reason "Epicurus" or any other human "thinker" that came before or after him is in error when trying to blame God for evil or the apparent lack of justice in this present world, the truth from God's Word that I shared will be what judges all of us in God's final reckoning with each of us, and not fallen man's ideas of evil, right and wrong, or God's existence or character, so I pray that you will take whatever truth I correctly conveyed from His Word seriously. Your eternal soul is what is at stake for rejecting the truth friend, not whether you, I, or anyone else here is a formidable debater on this subject.

 

[John54]

Thanks for that. I was a bit surprised to find an atheist who's primary issue is the issue of evil since that assumes a moral absolute.

It is interesting that you find some level of moral absolutes as you state... (snip) How would you explain that obvious univeral and natural moral law?

I don't think there are moral absolutes (as in laws handed down from on high) but humans, like many other animals, have evolved certain traits that can be seen through a 'moral' lens.

Consider altruism, for example. Taking care of others and putting them first can have an evolutionary advantage, so such behaviour is gradually programmed into the genes via natural selection.

Along comes an animal with a huge brain & the ability to create complex language (humanity) and such inherited traits are translated into a moral code.

Additionally, the principle of causality would also seem to me to be a motivating factor in believing in at least a first, higher power.

But assuming a first, higher power doesn't eliminate the problem because you then have to provide a cause for the higher power. Saying 'God is uncaused' is no use. You may as well say 'the universe is uncaused'.

I've not ever had a lack of belief in a God of source so it's difficult for me to understand how you could deny the obvious cause and effect logic that even scientist suse to presume an initial source for every effect they research.

Physics is making it clear that at the very heart of matter the principle of cause and effect (as we currently understand it) breaks down. Quantum mechanics indicates that it may well be the universe came into being literally from nothing.

I would just think that you'd at least have to believe in a supernatural creator, regardless of his personality or identity.

No, I think there are naturalistic explanations for everything we experience. Whenever the supernatural is invoked, it's invoked because our reason has failed us (or, in some cases - mediums etc. - because we want to fool people for suspect motives).


John

 

[John54]

So, what part of your understanding tells you that it (my computer) didn't evolve out of nothing.

My past experience, coupled with my reason.

You did (change the subject), but that's another story.

Mike, I did not change the subject, and no matter how many times you say I did, that will not make it the case. You said I had to bear in mind that God was a spirit, not a creature of matter. I said I didn't believe in any form of spirit. That is not 'changing the subject'.

If you haven't studied it (the bible) then you have no grounds to dismiss it.

That's not logical, Mike.

Imagine I came to you with a book called 'The Truth of the Invisible Martian Jellyfish' and told you such a creature exists and it created the universe and you must read the book it caused to be written.

Imagine you read it and found it full of internal contradictions.

Imagine that, having read it, you said to yourself 'This entire idea seems extremely unlikely - and the book makes little sense...'

I say to you: 'Read it again. Study it. The truth is in there!'

What would your reaction be?

Suffering is not evidence that God doesn't exist.

It's evidence that suffering exists. You can say that it's evidence that evil exists. You can even say that it's evidence that God is not good, but it is not evidence that God doesn't exist.

As I've said several times, because it's evidence that God is not good, it means the traditional Christian God does not exist.

John

 

[John54]

Let's say, do a search on what the Bible has to say about Hell, and read what a few Christian sites say about it.

Thanks for the input, Digit. I'll see what I can find.

John

 

[Criada]

How can you believe in God?

I've been an atheist for many years, and it seems so obvious to me that God is a fiction - but I know intelligent people who do believe. From what they say it appears they do so for emotional, rather than logical, reasons.

So I'm interested in gathering a few thoughts from members of this forum.

What is it that makes you so sure there is a loving, personal God when there seems to be such strong evidence against that concept?

Thanks in advance,

John

Back to your original question - sorry, I'm catching up here!

I have struggled with these things, and beee at a point where I thought that I could never accept Christianity because of the lack of scientific evidence.
And yet, every time, I come back to that deep, inexplicable part of me, my inmost being, that just...feels.
And I want explainations.
I want evidence.
I want proof!!

But...
He is still there!
And I see Him working in my life, and in the lives of others.
And when I pray, He does answer.

And the more time I spend listenong and praying, the closer I come to Him.
It's not logical.
It's not proven in any scientific sense of the word.
But, there it is...

Not the path I would have chosen...
Never saw myself as the "mystical" type...
But - there is a joy and peace that I can't explain any other way.

Sorry - this doesn't answer your questions.
But I am not sure any more that there are answers.
Not of the rigorously logical type you want.
Because if He is truly God, then how can we even begin to understand Him?

And this is not a "God of the gaps" arguement, because my God is above all the theories and explainations.
Science (and I am a science teacher by profession, so I do not dismiss science in any way!) can only show us 'how', and not 'why'.

I hope some of this makes sense to you - apologies if it doesn't - it's half term and I have four children at home, which makes concentration rather difficult!

God bless you.

 

[John54]

Thanks for that, Criada.

Believe me, I do understand the longing people feel - the need to believe there's something beyond life, and that a wonderful, loving parent waits for us in an eternal heaven.

I've felt that longing myself. Who hasn't?

But I see absolutely no evidence that there's any truth in the concept. None. Zero. Zilch.

All around me I see evidence that the true nature of reality is the one that science reveals - and it's an amazing, exciting, wonderful reality.

But I've come to the conclusion that the tools of reason and logic - the tools we use to discover and explore this reality - reveal Faith in Religion to be little more than wishful thinking.

I guess it comes down to a choice. Do you go where your intellect takes you and let go of the comfort blanket of religion - or do you cling on to a faith you can't justify intellectually because it satisfies an emotional need?

It's a decision every thinking person has to make.

John

 

[John54]

Your eternal soul is what is at stake for rejecting the truth friend, not whether you, I, or anyone else here is a formidable debater on this subject.

So I must believe out of terror? If I fail to believe I will spend eternity in Hell?

One of the benefits of rejecting the notion that there is life after death, and rejecting the notion that there is such a thing as a 'soul' - eternal or not - is that such fears evaporate, UHS.

I now see them as what they are: lies used to frighten children.

John

 

[Criada]

Thanks for that, Criada.

Believe me, I do understand the longing people feel - the need to believe there's something beyond life, and that a wonderful, loving parent waits for us in an eternal heaven.

I've felt that longing myself. Who hasn't?

But I see absolutely no evidence that there's any truth in the concept. None. Zero. Zilch.

Yes, I know that feeling so well....
But what sort of evidence are you looking for?
Isn't impossible to give physical evidence for spiritual reality?

I love my children.
But I cannot provide any evidence for that feeling.
I can point to what I do for them, the way I care for them physically.
But then, Dawkins would put that down to genetic selfishness!

I can tell you of things God has done in my life, but again, that is subjective.

So what kind of evidence are you looking for?

But I've come to the conclusion that the tools of reason and logic - the tools we use to discover and explore this reality - reveal Faith in Religion to be little more than wishful thinking.

But are these the correct tools to be using here?

I guess it comes down to a choice. Do you go where your intellect takes you and let go of the comfort blanket of religion - or do you cling on to a faith you can't justify intellectually because it satisfies an emotional need?

It's a decision every thinking person has to make.

Indeed.
And one I have struggled with -I didn't give in easily on this, believe me!
I have read many, many books on both sides of the argement, I have shouted at a God I was not even sure was there, I have cried and struggled.
And perhaps I have taken the cowardly way out - but I don't think so.
I try to remain honest with myself intellectually as well as spiritually.
But I do truly believe that there is a division here.

Philip K Dick said:
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."


And that is what I am left with.
Because however much I reason it out, Jesus doesn't go away!

God bless you.

 

[MikeMcK]

My past experience, coupled with my reason.

OK. What is it in your past experience that tells you that your computer didn't appear out of nothing?

Why are you trying so hard to avoid answering the question?

That's not logical, Mike.

Imagine I came to you with a book called 'The Truth of the Invisible Martian Jellyfish' and told you such a creature exists and it created the universe and you must read the book it caused to be written.

Imagine you read it and found it full of internal contradictions.

The problem, of course, it's entirely possible that a casual reading may reveal internal contradictions.

However, without taking the time to study it out I have no way of knowing whether they're actually contradictions, or just apparent contradictions.

People tell me all the time that there are contradictions in the Bible, but when these "contradictions" are examined, it becomes clear that they're not contradictions at all, but just a misunderstanding based on the fact that the person didn't take the time to study the text out for themselves.

And now, you're going to show me a cut and paste of alleged Biblical contradictions that you got from some anti-Christian website and I'll be able to set them straight because I've studied it and neither you, nor the people who put these websites together, haven't.

Imagine that, having read it, you said to yourself 'This entire idea seems extremely unlikely - and the book makes little sense...'

I say to you: 'Read it again. Study it. The truth is in there!'

What would your reaction be?

The difference is that I would have the intellectual integrity to study the book, rather than just casually reading a few lines here and there and proclaiming it false.

As I've said several times, because it's evidence that God is not good, it means the traditional Christian God does not exist.

And, again, that's false logic, because it ignores the cause and nature of suffering and the fact that God has addressed suffering.

 

[Digit]

Thanks for the input, Digit. I'll see what I can find.

John

That's cool, I hope that's actually helpful in some way. I mean Hell is actually one of the big issues that non-believers struggle with, yet there are some real differences between Hollywood's, eternal torment at the hands of demons, and what the Bible says about it.

I hope I answered your question anyhow, I can see why others in this thread are trying to convert you, hehe, it seems you can't step into the Outreach forum without that happening, and I commend their efforts. However I feel as long as a base doubt exists, then God will never be compatible with your life.

All the best, God bless.

Digit

 

[John54]

Yes, I know that feeling so well....
But what sort of evidence are you looking for?
Isn't impossible to give physical evidence for spiritual reality?

If the traditional Christian God exists and he interacts with humanity - answering prayers, for example - then it should be very easy for us to detect the results of his interactions.

Imagine that the Catholics have it right and the true God is the God that Catholics believe in. It would be easy to conduct an experiment - a properly-controlled, scientific experiment - in which people of all faiths were asked to pray for the sick.

If only the Catholic prayers worked, that would be pretty conclusive proof that there was a God, and he was a Catholic God.

If I was shown evidence like that, and I couldn't fault the experimental design, I'd seriously begin to doubt my decision to accept the atheist position.

I love my children.
But I cannot provide any evidence for that feeling.

Of course you can. Your actions towards them are evidence of your love on a daily basis. An impartial observer, seeing you care for them, comfort them, worry about them, cuddle them etc. would conclude that Criada performs actions in the real world that indicate she wants no harm to come to her children.

We've given the name 'love' to the drive that powers those actions, so an impartial observer would conclude that you love your children.

So what kind of evidence are you looking for?

Evidence such as the prayer example above, but I'm also looking for a LACK of evidence that points the other way - towards the view that God doesn't exist.

Every time God allows an earthquake to destroy one of his churches and kill or injure the people inside who were busy praising his glory, that's evidence against the notion of God and for the notion that we live in an indifferent universe.

But are these the correct tools to be using here?

Yes. Reason and logic are the tools that work. They deliver the goods. Faith, it seems to me, delivers only self-delusion, and can be extremely dangerous.

John

 

[MikeMcK]

If the traditional Christian God exists and he interacts with humanity - answering prayers, for example - then it should be very easy for us to detect the results of his interactions.

Imagine that the Catholics have it right and the true God is the God that Catholics believe in. It would be easy to conduct an experiment - a properly-controlled, scientific experiment - in which people of all faiths were asked to pray for the sick.

If only the Catholic prayers worked, that would be pretty conclusive proof that there was a God, and he was a Catholic God.

If I was shown evidence like that, and I couldn't fault the experimental design, I'd seriously begin to doubt my decision to accept the atheist position.

And it's already been shown why answered prayer is not credible evidence for the existence of God.

Every time God allows an earthquake to destroy one of his churches and kill or injure the people inside who were busy praising his glory, that's evidence against the notion of God and for the notion that we live in an indifferent universe.

It's only evidence against the notion of God if you believe that God is somehow obligated to put some sort of cosmic dome of protection over churches.

Who ever said that Christians were immune to natural disasters?

Yes. Reason and logic are the tools that work.

But is it really reasonable or logical to say that you reject evidence that you haven't even examined, or that you would instead, accept subjective experience?

Is it really logical to say that you're sure that your computer couldn't have appeared out of nothing (although you appear unable to tell us why you believe this), but that it's perfectly reasonable to believe that the universe did?