An Honest Question

[junezephyr]

There are a few assumptions that concern me. When I've read a little more, I'll probably post a question or two.

John

I know I already suggested this one previously to you in another thread, but I'd like to again recommend Lewis's book "Miracles" as well. It has a far more thorough explanation of the differences between naturalism and supernaturalism. A very good read in conjunction with "Mere Christianity".

 

[John54]

Thanks, jbug.

John

 

[John54]

OK, I've read Mere Christianity, and as I said above certain assumptions bother me. Here's the first one.

In "Right and Wrong as a Clue to the Meaning of the Universe" Lewis argues that deep within every human being there's a Natural Law of Morality - and he maintains this must have come from God. So there must be a God.

But is there such a law?

When considering the fact that different civilizations have had differing Laws of Morality, he says: " . . . these have never amounted to anything like a total difference."

That simply isn't true. Throughout the ages, some cultures have practiced things our supposedly Universal Law of Morality would never sanction today. Cannibalism, incest, polygamy, infanticide... you name it, some societies have sanctioned it.

So does God's Universal Natural Moral Law change from one culture to another - or is it simply an inaccurate idea?

Even if it were true that there is a Moral Law shared by all people everywhere, you can't leap from that observation to the notion that it proves the existence of a supreme God.

As this Universal Natural Law is the foundation of the book's argument for belief in God, it seems to me to leave the rest of his argument resting on uncertain ground.

Thoughts?

John

 

[desmalia]

Interesting questions, John. I think perhaps you are looking at the end result of an imperfect world as reason to believe that moral law does not exist. But just because a society does do immoral things, that doesn't mean that it stemmed from a total lack of moral law to begin with. What you are seeing is a deterioration of that moral law. No society has ever lived within total morality. Ever. That doesn't mean that the basic understanding of good and bad doesn't exist, but really that it is often ignored or denied. And we know that the more we do something to violate our morals, the more numbed we become to them. A person who is subjected to massive amounts of violence over a period of time will become apathetic to it, like building up a moral callous. That is true for all morality. We are born with a basic morality, but a corrupt society can and does warp most people over time to a point where the lines may seem blurred in areas.

Take killing for example. Certainly there have been a variety of excuses or reasons for people to take a life over the centuries. But has there ever been a civilization that had absolutely no moral association with taking a life? Of course not. It always means something. We are born with that. What our upbringing does to that and how we respond is much more complicated. But the basic understanding is still there to begin with.

I wanted to add one more thing. It is basic morality that spurs people to great reform of immoral society, and that goes directly against the grain of simply being led by what we are taught. It goes deeper than that. Look at the end of slavery in the USA, for instance. Society had been claiming one way of life, but morality stood strong in the hearts of enough people to eventually overthrow the corruption. Same with the Nazis. Many gave in to the propeganda, but many fought it, clinging to a deeper truth, and refusing to be numbed to it.

 

[peacechild4]

How can you believe in God?

I've been an atheist for many years, and it seems so obvious to me that God is a fiction - but I know intelligent people who do believe. From what they say it appears they do so for emotional, rather than logical, reasons.

So I'm interested in gathering a few thoughts from members of this forum.

What is it that makes you so sure there is a loving, personal God when there seems to be such strong evidence against that concept?

Thanks in advance,

John

Hi.. answering your original question.. sorry if you have moved beyond that..

I believe in God because I choose too!

I believe in God because I believe what He said in the bible and have found that by following what He said.. it delivers what it promises and so much more.. I have been helped by God so many times... and through the storms of life I have had an unatural peace that I KNOW is not me.. I have been drawn to give my life to Him and learn about Him and live for Him..

I believe because God has heard me and answered me.. I mean I asked Him things and cried out to Him and I got answers and help!! I have seen His care of me daily and He has become my whole life.. my whole reason to live..

God is not who we think He is.. He is who He says He is.. and in order to find Him we need to take His word as truth.. The truth will set you free..

I read where it says.. that we must come to God as a child.. that unless we become as a child.. trusting and believing simply because we are drawn to know Him.. we cannot enter in.. experience the Kingdom of God..

We need a whole new mind... a changed heart to experience God.. we need to come to Him and believe in Him first of all..

We must leave all that we have ever experienced at the door that separates us from God.. We must knock.. and enter in as we are.. and God answers and leads us through changing us from what we once were to a whole new way of life... Called rebirth.. the born again experience..

Life is never quite the same again!! It is one thing to be outside looking in.. but another thing altogether to be inside and seeing it from a different perspective..

You just need to decide.. do I really want to know God.. can I step into the door and leave everything behind that I am, was and thought I was.. .. and if the answer is Yes.. Follow what He says to do.. turn from the way you have lived and follow Him... His way.. and He will open your eyes.. heart and mind to the reality of God..

John 3:6-7
Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.'

You will be running into a brick wall to understand God with just your own thinking and intellect.. God is spirit.. You have a spirit but because you live in a body.. your body will be trying to tell you what God is all about.. and so will every other body you meet.. .. but when you meet with a Spiritual person.. someone who really knows God because they have been born again..
you will then know that you are onto something real and that which you have been searching for will be found!!

To come to God we need His help .. we need Him to open our eyes.. so that we are no longer blind but can see.. So that our spiritual perception is turned on!!
We need to be born again.. our thinking needs to change.. so that we can comprehend all that there is to know about the Kingdom of God.. so we can know God and worship Him!!

John 11:40
Then Jesus said, "Did I not tell you that if you believed, you would see the glory of God?"

 

[Godslilgurlalways]

I believe in him b/c I know that he exist, I don't doubt that he does. I know he exist b/c I have felt his presence before. I also know that he exist becuase he talks to us.Remember he talks in more than one way than one.People say there is so much evidence against him but yet there is more edivence that he is there.But you have to be willing to search and willing to believe.


Like the wind for example, you can't see the wind, the wind doesn't have a color.We see what the wind can do, but you can see the actual when but only the result of the wind.You can feel the wind, you can see the results of the wind and what it does but you can't see the wind itself.But we have faith and believe that it's wind.


God works in almost the same way.Alot of people say I won't beleive it till I see it, but by then it would be too late.

 

[toddsgurlforever27]

well its hard to answere this question without putting my personal faith into it. so here it goes. im petacostal and we belive in gifts. i bring this aspect up for a very particular reason. my example on how i belive has to do with those gifts. one of the gifts is speaking in tounges. many people have got issues with this specific gift and thats ok. im not pushing my faith on ayone else. when i first spoke intounges, it was during a rvival. i have no recolection of a different language comming out of my mouth, however people from that night who were there next to me kept saying how beautiful it sounded comming out of my mouth. all i kept saying was that i praise his name and thanking him for all that he has done in my life. the interesting part is that what i heard commimg out of my mouth was english and to everyone else it was not. if GOD does not exist then how could that have happend? GOD shows himself in many different ways and while this was a mild example it just goes to show you that if GOD wills it then it wil happen. i would love for you to get back with me if you have any thoughts on what i have told you or if you would like to just chat some more. GOD BLESS!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Key]

OK, I've read Mere Christianity, and as I said above certain assumptions bother me. Here's the first one.

In "Right and Wrong as a Clue to the Meaning of the Universe" Lewis argues that deep within every human being there's a Natural Law of Morality - and he maintains this must have come from God. So there must be a God.

But is there such a law?

When considering the fact that different civilizations have had differing Laws of Morality, he says: " . . . these have never amounted to anything like a total difference."

That simply isn't true. Throughout the ages, some cultures have practiced things our supposedly Universal Law of Morality would never sanction today. Cannibalism, incest, polygamy, infanticide... you name it, some societies have sanctioned it.

So does God's Universal Natural Moral Law change from one culture to another - or is it simply an inaccurate idea?

Even if it were true that there is a Moral Law shared by all people everywhere, you can't leap from that observation to the notion that it proves the existence of a supreme God.

As this Universal Natural Law is the foundation of the book's argument for belief in God, it seems to me to leave the rest of his argument resting on uncertain ground.

Thoughts?

John

There are issues with that, and on that front I will agree, however, each of those "Laws" was there for a motive, IE: They did not kill the children because they thought it a fun thing to do, or they enjoyed doing it, it was done in the name of a "greater Good" something that outweighed a single life. For example, in Alaska among the native tribes, if more females are born then can be supported by the hunter gather males, the extra female children are put to death, not because killing the children is fun, nor is this done with a happy heart, as I would gather (pure assumption) that putting ones own child to death would be a mater of great weight and significance, much pain and suffering would be the byproduct of this act, however it is done, because if they did not do it, they they all might die, or the "child" would just die later of starvation because there would not be enough food. In this case, yes, it seems immoral to kill the child, but it is done for a greater good for the tribe as a whole.

Now, I can respect that in America, in a country of such abundance, and individuality, such things might be hard to grasp, but in truth it is not different then say, sending your child into the Military, where they will defend the country with their life if need be, and if they die, there will be much mourning and pain, but it is a price that is to be paid for the protection of the whole of the culture and civilization.

However, just because something is made legal, or "sanctioned" does not mean, that people agree with it, or that it is morally just. God himself said that there would be those with a hardened heart, and they would in a sense be devoid of the living morals that affect Gods people.

Hope this Helps.

God Bless

Key