An Empirical Theory Of God (2)

[Michael]

Hah! Looks like I am talking to an internet celebrity.

For those who don't know, Michael Mozina has been tirelessly promoting his cathode sun theory--which I assume is the same as what I knew it as, the iron sun theory--that the sun is primarily ferrous and that contemporary astronomers have been fooled by a relatively thin surface layer. He has been driven off most physics-based forums as a result, but I never would have thought to look for him here! Very nice to meet you--you've provided me with a ton of (highly entertaining) reading material, and while I don't actually agree with your theory, I do respect that you are patient, courteous, and willing to debate without resorting to ad hominem attacks--properties that are not always present in those you debate.

I appreciate the compliments, although the I'm not sure the mainstream would use the term "celebrity' to describe me. That was more than a little politically tactful on your part. I appreciate that.

 

[RealityCheck01]

Very nice to meet you--you've provided me with a ton of (highly entertaining) reading material, and while I don't actually agree with your theory, I do respect that you are patient, courteous, and willing to debate without resorting to ad hominem attacks--properties that are not always present in those you debate.

I am not sure that is completely correct about Michael, JWGU.
Some of his replies in the closed Electric suns, solar flares and coronal mass ejections thread get close to ad hominem attacks (e.g. here).
The thread was closed because it was generating a lot of reports.

On the other hand some of my posts there are not much better !
Have a look at my Michael's iron surface idea completely debunked where I do quite vigorously point out some areas of ignorance.

 

[mzungu]

If that 6% figure is statistically insignificant then so are the number of self declared actual "atheists" and Jews within the human population.

Major World Religions populations pie chart statistics list

They currently represent 2.32 percent and .23% of the population respectively.

ATHIESTS What on earth are ATHIESTS

 

[Michael]

ATHIESTS What on earth are ATHIESTS

I guess their attitude is that atheists are such a tiny percentage, they're statistically insignificant anyway.

 

[mzungu]

I guess their attitude is that atheists are such a tiny percentage, they're statistically insignificant anyway.

I think that the Romans once had the same belief about the Christians!

 

[madaz]

I think that the Romans once had the same belief about the Christians!

That is correct, the Romans even labelled the early christians as atheists too, but I would expect they could at least spell it correctly.

 

[Michael]

That is correct, the Romans even labelled the early christians as atheists too, but I would expect they could at least spell it correctly.

 

[Michael]

I think that the Romans once had the same belief about the Christians!

Obviously that was a long time ago. Between Muslims and Christians more than half the planet revers Jesus these days.

 

[madaz]

Obviously that was a long time ago. Between Muslims and Christians more than half the planet revers Jesus these days.

But eventually time will relegate the Bible and Quran to the mythological section of the library as it has for all previous worldwide held beliefs systems.

 

[Michael]

But eventually time will relegate the Bible and Quran to the mythological section of the library as it has for all previous worldwide held beliefs systems.

Perhaps so, but Christ's teachings will probably outlast them both.

Jesus seems to be a bit like McDonald's, billions served and growing.

 

[madaz]

Perhaps so, but Christ's teachings will probably outlast them both.

Jesus seems to be a bit like McDonald's, billions served and growing.

Maybe so, but Islam is presently growing faster.

 

[Michael]

Maybe so, but Islam is presently growing faster.

Indeed. Religions that love and respect Jesus tend to grow the fastest, and there are lots of options to choose from.

 

[madaz]

Indeed. Religions that love and respect Jesus tend to grow the fastest, and there are lots of options to choose from.

Indeed, there maybe as many as twenty new christian denominations being created each year adding to the already 38,000+ denominations. Eventually each Christian will have his/her own denomination to themselves as christianity as a whole keeps steadily declining.

Because it seems your "McDonalds" is on the decline and your "Burger King" is on the incline but overall your fast foods is declining.

Maybe people are more concerned about their health than ever before.

“Nones” on the Rise | Pew Research Center's Religion & Public Life Project

Here in Australia the non religious are the majority in five of the eight states and territories and growing exponentially!

 

[Michael]

Indeed, there maybe as many as twenty new christian denominations being created each year adding to the already 38,000+ denominations. Eventually each Christian will have his/her own denomination to themselves as christianity as a whole keeps steadily declining.

Because it seems your "McDonalds" is on the decline and your "Burger King" is on the incline but overall your fast foods is declining.

Considering the fact that only 12 guys were eating fast food (toward God) 2000 years ago, your concept of "in decline" seems silly considering the fact that billions have been served already, and undoubtedly there will be billions more to come.

I really don't believe that Jesus would "frown" upon everyone developing an *internal* relationship with God, and then 'selecting' a religion that's right for them personally. If you read John 17, he makes it *abundantly* clear that we are *all* capable of developing the same relationship with the 'father' that he enjoyed and experienced on a daily basis.

Maybe people are more concerned about their health than ever before.

Twinkie diet helps nutrition professor lose 27 pounds - CNN.com

Moderation is the key, and the problem isn't "fast food".

Here in Australia the non religious are the majority in five of the eight states and territories and growing exponentially!

After embracing atheism for about nine years before returning to theism, there was a point in my life where I considered myself to be a theist (again), yet I would have also stated that I was 'non religious' at that point in my life. Theism and religion are not one and the same claim.

How many of them actually call and label themselves "atheists"?

Last time I checked it was about 2.something percent of the human population. It's statistically insignificant compared to the number of humans that claim to revere Jesus. Do you *honestly* believe that's going to change anytime soon (as in your personal lifetime)?

 

[madaz]

.

Considering the fact that only 12 guys were eating fast food (toward God) 2000 years ago, your concept of "in decline" seems silly considering the fact that billions have been served already, and undoubtedly there will be billions more to come.

Christianity is on a decline, it's reality, it's not a concept of mine.

I really don't believe that Jesus would "frown" upon everyone developing an *internal* relationship with God, and then 'selecting' a religion that's right for them personally. If you read John 17, he makes it *abundantly* clear that we are *all* capable of developing the same relationship with the 'father' that he enjoyed and experienced on a daily basis.

I agree, I dont believe god(s) (if they he/she/it exists) would frown upon unbelievers either do you?

Moderation is the key, and the problem isn't "fast food".

After embracing atheism for about nine years before returning to theism, there was a point in my life where I considered myself to be a theist (again), yet I would have also stated that I was 'non religious' at that point in my life. Theism and religion are not one and the same claim.

Agreed, but keep in mind atheists can believe in a higher power too.

How many of them actually call and label themselves "atheists"?

My argument is that christianity is on a decline, and non-religious is on an incline, I never once suggested that "atheism" is on an incline.

Last time I checked it was about 2.something percent of the human population. It's statistically insignificant compared to the number of humans that claim to revere Jesus.

So?

Do you *honestly* believe that's going to change anytime soon (as in your personal lifetime)?

I dont believe the demise of christianity will occur in my lifetime, but I do believe the decline will become exponential leading to a demise within a few generations along with all major religions prior to the abrahamic ones.

 

[Michael]

Christianity is on a decline, it's reality, it's not a concept of mine.

I wouldn't be a bit surprised to see that *organized religion* is on the decline to some degree, but I doubt that actually changes the atheism/theism ratio all that dramatically. I'd guess the swing is away from the politics of the "church", not so much away from Jesus.

One rather interesting aspect of Christianity is that seems to promote free thought, free speech, and free spiritual expression, at least more so than other religions. That's why we see so many various "sects" of "Christianity" and only two sects of Islam.

I agree, I dont believe god(s) (if they he/she/it exists) would frown upon unbelievers either do you?

I certainly never felt "singled out" nor "punished" during my stint as an atheist, and I've never felt God was "angry" about me "questioning my faith", and even my belief in God. Atheism was actually a useful step in my personal growth.

Agreed, but keep in mind atheists can believe in a higher power too.

Buddhists the world over seem to agree with you since they are technically "atheists", but they embrace reincarnation.

My argument is that christianity is on a decline, and non-religious is on an incline, I never once suggested that "atheism" is on an incline.

I would guess that decline equates with a consumer dissatisfaction with organized religion in general, not so much with a giant change in the theism/atheism ratio within humanity as a whole.

I dont believe the demise of christianity will occur in my lifetime, but I do believe the decline will become exponential leading to a demise within a few generations along with all major religions prior to the abrahamic ones.

Well if by Abrahamic religions you mean ones that emphasize the *old testament*, and a revenge oriented concept of morality, I completely agree. I doubt however that the raw numbers of those who love and respect Jesus and his teachings will decline at all. In fact I think they are likely to continue to increase over time.

"Major" religions are a bit like "major" banks IMO. They have their strengths and their politics, but some folks simply prefer to do business with a "smaller" organization. I don't believe that is likely to change anytime soon.

 

[madaz]

I wouldn't be a bit surprised to see that *organized
religion* is on the decline to some degree,

Personally I couldn't care less whether *organized
religion* is on the decline or not.

but I doubt that actually changes
the atheism/theism ratio all that dramatically.

I didnt suggest there would be any changes in the atheism/theism ratio, however many atheists do not realise or even care that they fit the description of "atheist". If all these people were aware of their atheism and put their hands up, the ratio would change a lot more. I personally wasn't aware of my atheism until it was pointed out to me by others, but once again, I couldnt care less about atheism, theism or the ratio of the two.

I'd guess the swing is away from
the politics of the "church", not so much away from Jesus.

Probably so.

One rather interesting aspect of Christianity is that seems to promote free
thought, free speech, and free spiritual expression, at least more so than other
religions. That's why we see so many various "sects" of "Christianity" and only
two sects of Islam.

Agreed, but I'd attribute that freedom to the relative softness of the NT, the diverse interpretations of the bible which brings out the diverse "flavors" of christianity one may choose from to suit most "tastes".

I certainly never felt "singled out" nor "punished" during my stint as an
atheist, and I've never felt God was "angry" about me "questioning my faith",
and even my belief in God. Atheism was actually a useful step in my personal
growth.

"Feelings" or personal experience of god are in my opinion perhaps the most questionable "evidence" that anyone could provide. I personally dismiss such "evidence" but appreciate your feedback nonetheless.

Buddhists the world over seem to agree with you since they are technically
"atheists", but they embrace reincarnation.

Whether or not buddhists, jains, atheist hindu's, atheist jews or atheist christians agree with me is beside the point, atheists can believe in whatever they want to believe, except for the obvious.

I would guess that decline equates with a consumer dissatisfaction with
organized religion in general, not so much with a giant change in the
theism/atheism ratio within humanity as a whole.

I concur with you here.

Well if by Abrahamic religions you mean ones that emphasize the *old testament*,
and a revenge oriented concept of morality, I completely agree. I doubt however
that the raw numbers of those who love and respect Jesus and his teachings will
decline at all. In fact I think they are likely to continue to increase over
time.

Maybe so but in my opinion I doubt it, I believe deism, pantheism or parentheism will supercede any worshipping of muhammad or jesus over time. But I do know some christians who have never been to church or never read the bible, I wouldn't expect their numbers to decline too much.

"Major" religions are a bit like "major" banks IMO. They have their strengths
and their politics, but some folks simply prefer to do business with a "smaller"
organization. I don't believe that is likely to change anytime soon.

I concur once again with you here.

 

[Michael]

Maybe so but in my opinion I doubt it, I believe deism, pantheism or parentheism will supercede any worshipping of muhammad or jesus over time. But I do know some christians who have never been to church or never read the bible, I wouldn't expect their numbers to decline too much.

I do think that pantheism and panentheism will eventually increase in popularity as well, but I doubt that will ever change the ratio or numbers of humans that love Christ.

FYI, thanks for a very enjoyable conversation.

 

[madaz]

I do think that pantheism and panentheism will eventually increase in popularity as well, but I doubt that will ever change the ratio or numbers of humans that love Christ.

Perhaps christian atheism then?

FYI, thanks for a very enjoyable conversation.

Thank you sir

 

[Michael]

Perhaps christian atheism then?

Actually I was thinking more along the lines of Christian *panentheism*.