An Empirical Theory Of God (2)

Eudaimonist

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What makes anyone an "expert" on God exactly?

That's a profound question. There would have to be evidence of God in order for anyone to be an expert. Too bad there isn't any.

I think most folks would consider Jesus to be an "expert" on this topic. He certainly believed in God.
smile.gif

If he existed, and if he had any more evidence of God than anyone else.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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quatona

"God"? What do you mean??
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Don't atheists have the freedom to "lack belief" in God and define that lack of belief anyway they want?
smile.gif
Sure. Which only confirms my point.

Whether it's surprising or not, it is in fact the human "consensus" on this particular topic.
Good thing you put consensus in quotation marks.

AFAIK consensus is an agreement on a concept. Two concepts denoted by the same word don´t become the same concept.
 
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Michael

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That's a profound question.

Yes it is. IMO it deserves more than a "flippant" answer. If we look at it statistically, Jesus is recognized as an 'expert' on the topic of God by both Christians and Muslims alike. Between the two religions, they represent the beliefs of more than half of this planet. You and I aren't world recognized "experts", and I haven't seen you suggest we even TRY what Jesus suggested. Interesting.

There would have to be evidence of God in order for anyone to be an expert. Too bad there isn't any.

I take it you didn't read through the first thread in it's entirety? There is more empirical physical, cause/effect evidence of God as the Universe (pantheism) or God *IN* the universe (panentheism) than for any other so called "scientific" theory of the universe.

There is certainly more evidence of a living, intelligent universe than there is for "dark energies' or dead inflation genies.

If he existed,

Historically speaking, you're way out on a "fundy" limb by questioning his existence. Accounts of his life appear not only in the Bible, but in apocryphal accounts as well. Historically speaking, his existence is pretty well recorded.

and if he had any more evidence of God than anyone else.

So do you pray or meditate on a regular basis? The reason I ask is that Jesus did suggest that these "techniques" would allow one to communicate and commune with God themselves. Do you try it regularly? If not, don't you think your "inexperience" might be due more to laziness than to anything else?
 
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Michael

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Sure. Which only confirms my point.

Er, no. If everyone is 'free', then statistically speaking, why isn't atheism more than single digit "anomaly" rather than enjoy at least a 50 percent stake in human beliefs?

Good thing you put consensus in quotation marks.

AFAIK consensus is an agreement on a concept. Two concepts denoted by the same word don´t become the same concept.

You're really trying hard to rationalize away a very simply scientific statistic. About 85% of the planet believes that God exists. We don't all agree on his 'character' necessarily, but then humans don't all agree on the "character" of the current President either. Why then would you expect anything other than "differences of opinion" on that topic?

Statistically speaking, atheism is a statistical anomaly, a 4% "blip" on what is otherwise a mostly "theistic" view of life. At least 85% of the planet believes in a living God, one that communicates and interacts with humans here and now on Earth.
 
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quatona

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Er, no. If everyone is 'free', then statistically speaking, why isn't atheism more than single digit "anomaly" rather than enjoy at least a 50 percent stake in human beliefs?
Are you sure you understood my point? As long as everyone is free to call "God" what they wish, an agreement that "God exists" is not an agreement in beliefs but merely a glitch in communication.



You're really trying hard to rationalize away a very simply scientific statistic. About 85% of the planet believes that God exists. We don't all agree on his 'character' necessarily, but then humans don't all agree on the "character" of the current President either. Why then would you expect anything other than "differences of opinion" on that topic?
Do you understand the difference between a president and God?

Statistically speaking, atheism is a statistical anomaly, a 4% "blip" on what is otherwise a mostly "theistic" view of life. At least 85% of the planet believes in a living God, one that communicates and interacts with humans here and now on Earth.
Since I am free to call "God" whatever I wish, I could immediately change my icon to "theist" without changing my opinions. I´d just had to change my terminology.
 
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Doveaman

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The capacity for intelligence is the brain. The use of this capacity is the firing patterns.
Firing patterns do not explain intelligence. They only show a link between the two.
Do we? Source?
All electrical phenomena are sensitive to the surrounding EM field.
Yes, there is another source, but it has been detected: neurons and their connections to other neurons.
This only tells us that neurons are firing. It tells us nothing about intelligence. When neurons fire bits of information, that information needs to be organized. How?
Perhaps the EM field generated from firing neurons could influence the firing of other neurons,
I agree. And if that EM field is influenced by an external source it will also influence the firing of other neurons.
but this would simply be another form of neural connection. It would be as if computers in a network were connected both by wires and by a wireless connection.
The firing patterns within a computer are the result of external intelligent inputs. The intelligent inputs control the firing patterns output. Perhaps this is how the brain works; by an intelligent input that is external to the brain’s firing pattern but not external to the human mind.
[FONT=&quot]BTW, the electromagnetic view of consciousness that I guess you are promoting here is considered pseudo-science by [/FONT][FONT=&quot]nearly all mainstream scientists[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. It's an interesting speculation, but it's a bit too "Deepak Chopra" at this point, if you know what I mean.[/FONT]
I'm not impressed by mainstream science. They don't believe the universe is electric either, but it is. I'm not exactly promoting the electromagnetic view of consciousness, just aspects of it. It’s an interesting idea that is far more than what you are promoting. At least it offers an explanation, even if not proven.

We routinely encode complex images and sounds in EM fields that we transmit to our TV and radio sets. Of course this requires intelligent input. Maybe the disorganized bits of information fired from neurons are somehow encoded into the brain’s EM field before being transmitted to our awareness in a way that makes sense to our minds. Again, this too would require some kind of intelligent input.

Do you have an alternative explanation besides mere neurons firing? Simply acknowledging that neurons are firing doesn’t explain intelligence. In fact, is seems more likely that neurons fire the way they do because we are intelligent.
In any case, this EM field is generated by the brain,
But an EM field external to the brain can influence how the neurons fire. This shows that the firing patterns of the brain can be influence by an external source.
not given by God,
Well since God created the brain then the brain’s EM field is also a gift from God.
nor is it some possessing spirit.
But maybe the spirit is an intelligent source influencing the EM Field and the firing patterns of the brain.

"There is a spirit in man, the breath of the Almighty, that gives him understanding...For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him?" (Job 32:8, 1 Cor 2:11).
Or perhaps we will simply find ourselves.
To find ourselves is to find God since we are lost without Him.
 
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Doveaman

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That's a profound question. There would have to be evidence of God in order for anyone to be an expert. Too bad there isn't any.
Jim built the house. I have no evidence that Jim built the house, therefore Jim did not build the house.
think_smiley_06.gif
 
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Michael

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Are you sure you understood my point? As long as everyone is free to call "God" what they wish, an agreement that "God exists" is not an agreement in beliefs but merely a glitch in communication.

Well, we may not agree on the qualities and characteristics of the current US President, but we would all agree that he exists. :) We may not all agree about his "character" oriented aspects, but we would all agree that he exists. Well, there might be a few humans out there that might not agree, but hey..... :)

Do you understand the difference between a president and God?

Sure. Do you understand the differences between a Republican and a Democrat and how one's political affiliations might change one's views about even a human beings "character attributes"?

Scientifically (physically) speaking theists are going to fall into one of two camps related to empirical physics, Pantheism (my preference) and panentheism, which evidently (from the reading I've done so far) pretty much covers all other forms of theism. I'm even willing to entertain the possibility of either concept. :)

All the rest of the various "religions" amount to philosophical differences about the nature and character of God, what God would and would not do, yada, yada, yada. These are more akin to political party affiliations. The various differences in party affiliations and opinions about the "character" of the President or God, or pretty much any other topic under the sun is bound to be full of "various points of view" that are individually subjective. That's not a valid reason to claim: The President must not exist because everyone has different opinions about him.
 
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Michael

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Your very first post started with something like "God is the universe". Cool. I do believe that the universe exists. Without changing my beliefs, I could simply adopt your terminology and call myself a theist.

Welcome to theism. :) Do you believe "God" is "aware"? :)
 
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Doveaman

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Scientifically (physically) speaking theists are going to fall into one of two camps related to empirical physics, Pantheism (my preference) and panentheism, which evidently (from the reading I've done so far) pretty much covers all other forms of theism. I'm even willing to entertain the possibility of either concept. :)
Is it possible for the universe to create beings who are aware and intelligent without the universe itself being aware and intelligent?

Could it be that we were created by a zombie universe?

Then again, big bang theory is a zombie theory. It has a 4% appearance of life and a 96% appearance of death. :(
 
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thaumaturgy

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Is it possible for the universe to create beings who are aware and intelligent without the universe itself being aware and intelligent?

Why not?

Could it be that we were created by a zombie universe?
That certainly sounds scary! I've heard about zombies. They are "killed", put in the grave and come back! That sounds scary. Unless of course it's an important concept for one's religion.
 
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thaumaturgy

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Yes it is. IMO it deserves more than a "flippant" answer.

I would hardly call the response "flippant". I hear people, earnestly and with all the best intentions tell others all about God and what God wants and what God is and what Heaven is all about.

If we look at it statistically, Jesus is recognized as an 'expert' on the topic of God by both Christians and Muslims alike.

Two religions that take many things at face value without secondary proof. The question about whether Jesus was real is quite important. Once you establish Jesus reality then you have to establish his connection to God either as a "prophet" or the incarnation of God as man.

Which means you have to first establish God's existence such that it doesn't require a "religion" to provide the foundation.

Historically speaking, you're way out on a "fundy" limb by questioning his existence. Accounts of his life appear not only in the Bible, but in apocryphal accounts as well. Historically speaking, his existence is pretty well recorded.

Are there any contemporary accounts? Even the Josephus account is questionable as to its veracity.

So do you pray or meditate on a regular basis? The reason I ask is that Jesus did suggest that these "techniques" would allow one to communicate and commune with God themselves. Do you try it regularly? If not, don't you think your "inexperience" might be due more to laziness than to anything else?

So I need to focus my imagination on itself so intently that I "experience" God as a separate being from my imagination?

Interesting.
 
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Eudaimonist

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Is it possible for the universe to create beings who are aware and intelligent without the universe itself being aware and intelligent?

Not only is it possible, it has happened.

Then again, big bang theory is a zombie theory. It has a 4% appearance of life and a 96% appearance of death. :(

Yeah, so? Why does that bother you?


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Eudaimonist

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There is more empirical physical, cause/effect evidence of God as the Universe (pantheism) or God *IN* the universe (panentheism) than for any other so called "scientific" theory of the universe.

To my knowledge, that simply isn't so.

There is certainly more evidence of a living, intelligent universe than there is for "dark energies' or dead inflation genies.

Certainly? Not to my knowledge. You are likely talking about woo of the sort Deepak Chopra indulges in.

Historically speaking, you're way out on a "fundy" limb by questioning his existence.

Nevertheless, this is an important enough philosophical consideration to make it worth mentioning.

Accounts of his life appear not only in the Bible, but in apocryphal accounts as well. Historically speaking, his existence is pretty well recorded.

No, what we seem to have are at best accounts of people who have heard that there was someone named Jesus who did such-and-such, but had never met him personally.

We don't have anything like a first hand account, which might run something like this: "I was in Jerusalem during the 19th year of the reign of Tiberius Ceasar in Rome, and I saw a gathering around a man called Jesus, who preached of salvation in another world. I had assumed that he was just another doomsayer, but he seemed unusually kind and wise. I didn't know what to make of him, but I had pressing business in Jerusalem, so I went to see Pontius Pilate on matters of governance."

That would be impressive, but no accounts of this sort have ever been found. That doesn't mean that they don't exist, of course, but there's no reason why they must either.

Writings about Jesus, for instance from Paul, seem to fit in to an established form of apocalyptic literature popular at the time. They use certain literary devices, such as claims of visions, to give weight to the teachings to follow. It might seem to you that Paul's writings, and the Gospel, are entirely unprecedented and could only have arisen in response to a historical Jesus, but when one takes the full context, there's some reasonable doubt about that.

So do you pray or meditate on a regular basis?

I don't pray, and I meditate occasionally. I also practice certain spiritual exercises on a semi-regular basis, but they aren't theistic ones.

The reason I ask is that Jesus did suggest that these "techniques" would allow one to communicate and commune with God themselves.

I doubt that these "techniques" would do anything other than to create the illusion of this by making changes in my brain. I'm a big fan of spiritual techniques, but not as mystical sources of knowledge. They may be effective for spiritual goals such as peace of mind, but are epistemologically empty.

If not, don't you think your "inexperience" might be due more to laziness than to anything else?

Not laziness as such, but rather wisdom in knowing that nothing is to be gained in that way. Likewise, if someone were to suggest to me to take LSD in order to "see God", it wouldn't matter to me if other users had claimed to see God in that way. I would not have any reason to think that they were seeing anything other than what was produced by their own psyches.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Eudaimonist

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Jim built the house. I have no evidence that Jim built the house, therefore Jim did not build the house.
think_smiley_06.gif

We were talking about what is required for someone to be an expert.

"I have no evidence that Jim (or any other identifiable individual) built the house, therefore I am not an expert on who built the house."


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Eudaimonist

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Firing patterns do not explain intelligence. They only show a link between the two.

This is at least a first step. What more do you think needs to be done to explain intelligence?

All electrical phenomena are sensitive to the surrounding EM field.

When I asked for a source, I meant a link to some research showing that the brain's EM field is strong enough to influence the firing patters of the brain to such an extent that it plays a significant role in the overall pattern of firings.

Have you ever used a cell phone? Did it affect your consciousness aside from your awareness of the cell phone through your senses? EM fields normally do very little to affect the brain. Perhaps especially strong ones can have some effect, but there is no guarantee that a particular EM field will affect the brain in any significant way.

This only tells us that neurons are firing. It tells us nothing about intelligence. When neurons fire bits of information, that information needs to be organized. How?

Neurons don't fire "bits" of information. We aren't computers.

And why does information need to be "organized"? We're talking about neural nets here. It may be that the firing of neurons can be organized in the sense that they follow patterns, but they don't communicate as computers do.

I agree. And if that EM field is influenced by an external source it will also influence the firing of other neurons.

It may, if it is strong enough. However, I know of no reason why a mere EM field could change the behavior of the brain in an intelligent and useful way.

And this all begs the question of how complex the brain's EM field is, and why its complexity should be any more explanatory of intelligence than the complexity of neural connections? Any why should the brain be complex at all if it's the EM field that matters?

And isn't the brain's EM field merely a reflection of the brain's complex firing patterns? You seem to want an independently complex EM field, like a possessing spirit, that thinks for itself and isn't itself the result of the brain's activities in some fundamental way. Is there evidence of this?

I'm not impressed by mainstream science.

Okay, then we really don't have much to discuss. I'm not against speculation, but I am against treating speculation as having an equal (or superior) standing to established science.

They don't believe the universe is electric either, but it is.

Go get your Nobel Prize.

Do you have an alternative explanation besides mere neurons firing?

As I see it, that's quite enough. I do not deny that there could be some role for EM fields in brain activity, but I don't think that EM fields actually do anything useful to solve the difficult problems of explaining intelligence and consciousness. It all comes back to neurons and their relations to each other.

Simply acknowledging that neurons are firing doesn’t explain intelligence. In fact, is seems more likely that neurons fire the way they do because we are intelligent.

That's because neurons exist in such complex relations to each other. You may have emergent phenomena, such as intelligence, arise from that complexity.

But an EM field external to the brain can influence how the neurons fire.

So you keep on saying. Is there any reason to think that an EM field is really the main determiner of brain firing patterns? Or do brain firing patterns create that field, which then has only a minor or negligible effect on the firing of nearby neurons?

As I said, speculation is fine. But to quote a wise woman from the 80's: "Where's the beef?"


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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impblack

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Well, we may not agree on the qualities and characteristics of the current US President, but we would all agree that he exists. :) We may not all agree about his "character" oriented aspects, but we would all agree that he exists. Well, there might be a few humans out there that might not agree, but hey..... :)



Sure. Do you understand the differences between a Republican and a Democrat and how one's political affiliations might change one's views about even a human beings "character attributes"?

Scientifically (physically) speaking theists are going to fall into one of two camps related to empirical physics, Pantheism (my preference) and panentheism, which evidently (from the reading I've done so far) pretty much covers all other forms of theism. I'm even willing to entertain the possibility of either concept. :)

All the rest of the various "religions" amount to philosophical differences about the nature and character of God, what God would and would not do, yada, yada, yada. These are more akin to political party affiliations. The various differences in party affiliations and opinions about the "character" of the President or God, or pretty much any other topic under the sun is bound to be full of "various points of view" that are individually subjective. That's not a valid reason to claim: The President must not exist because everyone has different opinions about him.
So if i say my pencil is a president, i believe in the same president as you?
 
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Doveaman

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We were talking about what is required for someone to be an expert.

"I have no evidence that Jim (or any other identifiable individual) built the house, therefore I am not an expert on who built the house."
The fact that you insist Jim (God) didn't build the house (universe) suggests you are an expert on Jim's ability, or an expert on how the house was built.

It is not enough for you to simply say you don't know who built the house, but you also insist Jim didn't build it. Such a dogmatic conclusion requires an expert analysis.
 
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