An Empirical Theory Of God (2)

[Michael]

Michael please jog my memory and post my quote blaming god, I don't recall blaming it.

The fact of the matter is that we were given a planet that contains more abundant resources than we need, but our greed and selfishness prevents us from even showing one another real compassion. Is that cartoon you posted really God's fault, or the fault of spoiled selfish children?

 

[bhsmte]

The thing is, if you study events like near death experiences, they happen to lots of people, theists and atheists alike, even folks like Carl Jung. Even trained psychologists that have such experiences treat them as 'real' and important experiences, as do the vast majority of those that experience them.

We all get called back to God, sooner or later, almost always leaving grieving loved ones behind. Life itself is a precious gift, but our times in form are *always* of a limited duration. Every moment is precious.

Of course every moment is precious, I don't believe anyone would debate that.

And yes, there have been plenty of cases of what you explain and they are "real" to the people they happen to. We know the complexities of the human brain, yet don't quite understand everything about why certain experiences happen with a high degree of confidence, but do have some ideas.

Again, the inference that God intervenes in these cases where peoples vitals are not detectable presents a huge issue for me. Why again, would this same God that decides to intervene in these cases, let millions of other people suffer, or have their children suffer, all while they are praying endlessly for God's help.

Christianity has tried to explain this "cherry picking" by God and none of the explanations hold water and they also certainly don't do anything to justify how God is described in the bible.

 

[bhsmte]

I'm saying that 2000 years ago, a total of maybe only a few thousand people had ever heard of Jesus or his teachings, whereas today he has more than three billion followers. "Religions" change over time, but Christ's teachings are eternal IMO, as is the impact of those teachings.

Today I'm a *Universalist Christian", much like Origen. Like the Christian religion itself, my "Christian/religious" beliefs have actually changed over time, but my love for Jesus has not changed, and his love for us all is eternal.

Michael,

Do you believe in the miracles the bible states Jesus performed such as healing the sick etc..?

 

[mzungu]

If all Christians paid heed to the below then this would indeed be a better world:

 

[Michael]

Michael,

Do you believe in the miracles the bible states Jesus performed such as healing the sick etc..?

The miracles listed in the Bible aren't all that important to me personally actually, in fact I can think of logical ways to "explain" a lot of them. Thanks to today's technologies, there even numerous accounts of people coming back to life after being declared legally dead. I'm personally not attached to any parlor tricks.

It's the miracles within me, the changes inside of me that his teachings have achieved in my life that are important to me at this stage of my life. They've forever changed the way that I think about the world, the way I live in the world, and they're responsible for a lot of joy over the course of my life.

I'm honestly not emotionally attached to the complete literally accuracy of any book, in fact labeling any book "infallible" is a akin to idol worship IMO. According to John, in the Gospel of John, *Christ* is the "living word" of God, and that relationship with Christ happens within each of us.

 

[Michael]

Again, the inference that God intervenes in these cases where peoples vitals are not detectable presents a huge issue for me.

Judging God are you?

Why again, would this same God that decides to intervene in these cases, let millions of other people suffer, or have their children suffer, all while they are praying endlessly for God's help.

I'd have to understand all there was to know about the universe, that particular soul, God's *eternal plan* for that particular soul, etc. I don't profess to personally have those sorts of insights.

Christianity has tried to explain this "cherry picking" by God

Let's start simple for a moment. Ever bit, ever second, every *breath* we take is a *precious gift*, and *act of grace*, something none of use deserved, or could begin to explain.

I *trust* that God does understand the *needs of souls* better than I personally could hope to understand from the outside looking in. I can't explain why I was born in the US, in California, to two loving wonderful parents, when some children are born in the middle of a war zone. I can't explain such things, and I could never hope to explain such things except for the fact that war is a form of *insanity* that is perpetrated on humans by other humans. It's *our* choice how we live on our planet. This is clearly *our world* to work with, to create with, to *destroy*, if we're not careful. That much is obvious.

While many atheists assume life inside a physical form is of "utmost importance", most theist's don't see it that way. The sufferings of a single life are indeed sad, but they're part of what defines us, part of what makes us who we are. I can't change my own past, nor would I necessarily be included to try to "make it all perfect" even if I could.

Over the whole of *eternity*, I trust that God's grace *far outweighs* some temporary suffering in human form.

 

[Michael]

If all Christians paid heed to the below then this would indeed be a better world:

Indeed. If we lived as Jesus said we should live in Matthew 5 and in Luke six, Earth would become a relative "heaven on Earth". It's really our choice to make.

 

[bhsmte]

Judging God are you?

I'd have to understand all there was to know about the universe, that particular soul, God's *eternal plan* for that particular soul, etc. I don't profess to personally have those sorts of insights.

Let's start simple for a moment. Ever bit, ever second, every *breath* we take is a *precious gift*, and *act of grace*, something none of use deserved, or could begin to explain.

I *trust* that God does understand the *needs of souls* better than I personally could hope to understand from the outside looking in. I can't explain why I was born in the US, in California, to two loving wonderful parents, when some children are born in the middle of a war zone. I can't explain such things, and I could never hope to explain such things except for the fact that war is a form of *insanity* that is perpetrated on humans by other humans. It's *our* choice how we live on our planet. This is clearly *our world* to work with, to create with, to *destroy*, if we're not careful. That much is obvious.

While many atheists assume life inside a physical form is of "utmost importance", most theist's don't see it that way. The sufferings of a single life are indeed sad, but they're part of what defines us, part of what makes us who we are. I can't change my own past, nor would I necessarily be included to try to "make it all perfect" even if I could.

Over the whole of *eternity*, I trust that God's grace *far outweighs* some temporary suffering in human form.

I am judging what some people apply to God. Also, how the description many give of the God of the bible, can not be reconciled (at least for me) with reality.

 

[madaz]

Is that cartoon you posted really God's fault, or the fault of spoiled selfish children?

Unless your god actually exists and planned that suffering, which I do not believe, I see no fault whatsoever in that cartoon I posted.

 

[Michael]

Unless your god actually exists and planned that suffering, which I do not believe, I see no fault whatsoever in that cartoon I posted.

I'm not sure why you *assume* that God "plans" suffering, particularly something as 'curable' as hunger. It's not like Earth is incapable of sustaining our current population, and providing everyone with an adequate food supply. The last time I checked in fact, Americans were *wasting* about fifty percent of the foods they purchased.

 

[Michael]

I am judging what some people apply to God. Also, how the description many give of the God of the bible, can not be reconciled (at least for me) with reality.

As long as you realize that the question of God's existence is ultimately a *scientific/physics* question, with a valid scientific answer, I'm fine with that. IMO religions are a dime a dozen, and 'falsifying' them to some degree or another is a relatively straight forward process. That falsification aspect however is really related to a *religion* as you perceive it to be. It's not related to the actual scientific question of whether or not God exists. As long as you appreciate the difference, I'm good with that attitude.

FYI, the 'dogma' that I adhere to as a "Universalist Christian" today is very much different than the dogma I was taught as a child. In a very real sense, I also "falsified" my birth religion as I perceived it then, but I had to ultimately come to terms with the fact that such a simplistic falsification process means very little indeed at the level of pure physics and science.

 

[madaz]

I'm not sure why you *assume* that God "plans,

Michael, I make the assumption for the following reasons.

1. I am led to believe your god is omniscient so he must know of the suffering.

2. I am led to believe your god is omnipotent and omnibenevolent so he must be ignoring the suffering.

3. The bible demonstrates your god is not omnibenevolent.

4. I am led to believe your god has a plan for us.

Jeremiah 29:11 - For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.

 

[Michael]

I'm not sure why you *assume* that God "plans" suffering, particularly something as 'curable' as hunger.

Michael, I make the assumption for the following reasons.

1. I am led to believe your god is omniscient so he must know of the suffering.

Is suffering from hunger *his* fault, or the fault of human beings? Will this planet sustain and feed everyone on it today if we *shared* as Jesus taught us, yes or no?

2. I am led to believe your god is omnipotent and omnibenevolent so he must be ignoring the suffering.

There were beliefs that Jesus was willing to die for, but none that he was apparently willing to kill for. Jesus talked about how God makes the sun shine and the rain fall upon saint and sinner alike. Why would you blame God for *human* greed, selfishness and stupidity?

3. The bible demonstrates your god is not omnibenevolent.

That depends on how one personally (subjectively) chooses to "interpret" that book.

4. I am led to believe your god has a plan for us.

I'm led to believe that as well, but I'm also led to believe it's rarely a "suffering free" plan as it relates to events on Earth. It certainly wasn't a "suffering free" plan for Jesus. Why should I expect to be 'special'?

Jeremiah 29:11 - For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.

Thoughts of peace, and not of evil? I suppose then that the evil must come from the selfishness and greed within humanity, not from God.

Tell me, what is the expected end of God?

 

[bhsmte]

Is suffering from hunger *his* fault, or the fault of human beings? Will this planet sustain and feed everyone on it today if we *shared* as Jesus taught us, yes or no?

There were beliefs that Jesus was willing to die for, but none that he was apparently willing to kill for. Jesus talked about how God makes the sun shine and the rain fall upon saint and sinner alike. Why would you blame God for *human* greed, selfishness and stupidity?

That depends on how one personally (subjectively) chooses to "interpret" that book.

I'm led to believe that as well, but I'm also led to believe it's rarely a "suffering free" plan as it relates to events on Earth. It certainly wasn't a "suffering free" plan for Jesus. Why should I expect to be 'special'?

Thoughts of peace, and not of evil? I suppose then that the evil must come from the selfishness and greed within humanity, not from God.

Tell me, what is the expected end of God?

If you infer that God intervenes when cases of people with no detectable vital signs are revived, why in the world would he let millions of children suffer a horrible death, or many others he chooses not to revive in similar circumstances?

There is no reasonable way to reconcile this issue, no matter how it is twisted.

 

[Michael]

If you infer that God intervenes when cases of people with no detectable vital signs are revived, why in the world would he let millions of children suffer a horrible death, or many others he chooses not to revive in similar circumstances?

There is no reasonable way to reconcile this issue, no matter how it is twisted.

There is certainly no reasonable way for me to reconcile such issues for you, to your satisfaction, because I'm not God, complete with a "end plan" that I fully understand.

It would be like you and I being early followers of Jesus 2000 years ago, watching him getting nailed to a cross for telling us to love each other, and then you asking me to explain to you the logic of Jesus being tortured to death like that. I certainly wouldn't be able to explain such a thing at that moment in time since I wouldn't have the advantage of 20/20 hindsight.

 

[madaz]

Is suffering from hunger *his* fault, or the fault of human beings? Will this planet sustain and feed everyone on it today if we *shared* as Jesus taught us, yes or no?

So your god apparently ressurects one man to life in the (food wasteful nation) of the USA as you inferred, whilst simultaneously allowing 1,500,000 children to tragically starve to death anually in the poorer nations?

Would it be an exercise in futility for any of these unfortunate parents to pray for their child?

Please explain to me how you reconcile this Michael?

There were beliefs that Jesus was willing to die for, but none that he was apparently willing to kill for.

Maybe so Michael, but I really do wonder why he said this?

Matthew 10:34(NIV)
“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

Jesus talked about how God makes the sun shine and the rain fall upon saint and sinner alike. Why would you blame God for *human* greed, selfishness and stupidity?

This response does not follow or address statement 2 regarding your gods omnipotence and omnibenelovence.

That depends on how one personally (subjectively) chooses to "interpret" that book.

Michael do you really expect me to accept that? Are you suggesting my interpretation is incorrect? I love to be corrected. How about I post fourty or so biblical examples (I have many more) of your god behaving malevolently, and request your personal interpretation point by point so we can see where my interpretation is "incorrect"? What do you say?

I'm led to believe that as well, but I'm also led to believe it's rarely a "suffering free" plan as it relates to events on Earth. It certainly wasn't a "suffering free" plan for Jesus. Why should I expect to be 'special'?

Thoughts of peace, and not of evil? I suppose then that the evil must come from the selfishness and greed within humanity, not from God.

Again this response does not follow or address statement 4, tell me Michael, as a christian to an unbeliever, does your god have a plan for us? A simple yes or no will suffice.

Tell me, what is the expected end of God?

God? I lack belief in god(s). That is akin to asking a christian what is the expected end of Cthulhu?

It simply makes no sense, unless of course some christians believe/worship Cthulhu.

 

[Michael]

So your god apparently ressurects one man to life....

Life is a gift that is given (and eventually taken away) from all of us. What do you mean "one man"?

in the (food wasteful nation) of the USA as you inferred,

Is any developed nation a lot less wasteful? I kinda doubt it actually.

whilst simultaneously allowing 1,500,000 children to tragically starve to death anually in the poorer nations?

Why do we as humans allow that to happen every year when we have such abundant resources to work with, and more food than we can eat?

I realize that you and I do not possess the ability to give life, so the loss of life seems unreasonably tragic to us. However, to a being that can give life as well as take it away, that loss may be no more "tragic" to God than changing one's clothes when they get worn out or dirty. In fact it may be a *loving* act to "call them home" rather than allow them to be abused like that for decades. I suspect the most "tragic" part is how little we do as humans to *fix the problem* and how little compassion we have for each other.

You're welcome to play the role of God by the way, but I'd encourage you to stop assuming that the purpose of life from God's perspective is a cushy life on Earth. That certainly wasn't the case for Jesus. It's rarely the case for anyone over the whole of human lifetime.

Would it be an exercise in futility for any of these unfortunate parents to pray for their child?

I don't assume that God is obligated to answer "yes" to every request by every human in every instance if that's what you're asking.

Please explain to me how you reconcile this Michael?

I reconcile it with the fact that unlike me, God has the ability to give life. Furthermore, life is a *transitory* state by design as far as I can tell. *Nothing* lives forever, not humans, nor any other form of life. I therefore don't assume as you do that *life in form* is the be-all-end-all of existence as you seem to assume.

Maybe so Michael, but I really do wonder why he said this?

Matthew 10:34(NIV)
“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

I suppose he said that because he ultimately brought a sword of truth that has divided humanity since his arrival on the planet. You'll notice however that while there were beliefs and objectives that Jesus was willing to *die for*, there were none that he was willing to kill for. In fact when Peter did try to defend him from execution, Jesus admonished Peter, and healed the guard that Peter had injured. That's not exactly a violent response from a guy that knows that he is about to be put to death.

By the way, you're kinda "cherry picking" there aren't you?

This response does not follow or address statement 2 regarding your gods omnipotence and omnibenelovence.

I don't ever recall claiming *ownership* of God, nor do I recall using the term "Omni" in a sentence related to the term "God". These seem to be *your* beliefs/assertions.

Michael do you really expect me to accept that? Are you suggesting my interpretation is incorrect? I love to be corrected. How about I post fourty or so biblical examples (I have many more) of your god behaving malevolently, and request your personal interpretation point by point so we can see where my interpretation is "incorrect"? What do you say?

You are of course quite welcome to do whatever you like, but there are a few things you'll need to think about in terms of how *I* interpret that book. Jesus is the living "Word of God" IMO. I don't tend to "interpret" the Bible as an 'infallible' document, in fact I consider such an attitude to be a bit like "idol worship". I personally see a *very clear* distinction between the sense of morality that Jesus taught, and the sense of morality that Moses adhered to. Whereas Jesus taught "Love your enemies" and "Do not kill" and personally kept those commandments, Moses did not. You're liable to be extremely disappointed if you expect me to defend the actions of Moses or any other OT character of the Bible for that matter.

Again this response does not follow or address statement 4, tell me Michael, as a christian to an unbeliever, does your god have a plan for us? A simple yes or no will suffice.

A plan for us after we leave Earth? Yes. We are however given the freedom to make choices on Earth. We're here to learn to play nice with each other. Some of us learn that lesson. Some not so much. We're all here for a limited time.

God? I lack belief in god(s). That is akin to asking a christian what is the expected end of Cthulhu?

You seem more than happy to play the role the Judge of God by *assuming* that life in physical form should be cushy and happy all the time. You seem more than happy to judge God for not adhering to your sense of morality. I fail to see how that's a productive attitude.

 

[bhsmte]

Life is a gift that is given (and eventually taken away) from all of us. What do you mean "one man"?



Is any developed nation a lot less wasteful? I kinda doubt it actually.



Why do we as humans allow that to happen every year when we have such abundant resources to work with, and more food than we can eat?

I realize that you and I do not possess the ability to give life, so the loss of life seems unreasonably tragic to us. However, to a being that can give life as well as take it away, that loss may be no more "tragic" to God than changing one's clothes when they get worn out or dirty. In fact it may be a *loving* act to "call them home" rather than allow them to be abused like that for decades. I suspect the most "tragic" part is how little we do as humans to *fix the problem* and how little compassion we have for each other.

You're welcome to play the role of God by the way, but I'd encourage you to stop assuming that the purpose of life from God's perspective is a cushy life on Earth. That certainly wasn't the case for Jesus. It's rarely the case for anyone over the whole of human lifetime.



I don't assume that God is obligated to answer "yes" to every request by every human in every instance if that's what you're asking.



I reconcile it with the fact that unlike me, God has the ability to give life. Furthermore, life is a *transitory* state by design as far as I can tell. *Nothing* lives forever, not humans, nor any other form of life. I therefore don't assume as you do that *life in form* is the be-all-end-all of existence as you seem to assume.



I suppose he said that because he ultimately brought a sword of truth that has divided humanity since his arrival on the planet. You'll notice however that while there were beliefs and objectives that Jesus was willing to *die for*, there were none that he was willing to kill for. In fact when Peter did try to defend him from execution, Jesus admonished Peter, and healed the guard that Peter had injured. That's not exactly a violent response from a guy that knows that he is about to be put to death.

By the way, you're kinda "cherry picking" there aren't you?



I don't ever recall claiming *ownership* of God, nor do I recall using the term "Omni" in a sentence related to the term "God". These seem to be *your* beliefs/assertions.



You are of course quite welcome to do whatever you like, but there are a few things you'll need to think about in terms of how *I* interpret that book. Jesus is the living "Word of God" IMO. I don't tend to "interpret" the Bible as an 'infallible' document, in fact I consider such an attitude to be a bit like "idol worship". I personally see a *very clear* distinction between the sense of morality that Jesus taught, and the sense of morality that Moses adhered to. Whereas Jesus taught "Love your enemies" and "Do not kill" and personally kept those commandments, Moses did not. You're liable to be extremely disappointed if you expect me to defend the actions of Moses or any other OT character of the Bible for that matter.



A plan for us after we leave Earth? Yes. We are however given the freedom to make choices on Earth. We're here to learn to play nice with each other. Some of us learn that lesson. Some not so much. We're all here for a limited time.



You seem more than happy to play the role the Judge of God by *assuming* that life in physical form should be cushy and happy all the time. You seem more than happy to judge God for not adhering to your sense of morality. I fail to see how that's a productive attitude.

Michael,

I think we all understand why christians want to state "Jesus is the living word of God" and all that, but there is considerable doubt as to what Jesus said and or what Jesus did, during his time on earth. You even agree, the bible can't be taken literally, so how do you know what portion of the NT that describes Jesus' words and actions are simply man made for effect and which ones are true?

I agree with Madaz, the story simply can not be reconciled with how God is described by christians and then comparing that to the world we live in. Could be why there are so many sects of christianity, because believers are desperate to explain away all the obvious contradictions and no one agrees on the explanation.

 

[Michael]

Michael,

I think we all understand why christians want to state "Jesus is the living word of God" and all that,

That is "written in the book" by the way.

but there is considerable doubt as to what Jesus said and or what Jesus did, during his time on earth.

There is considerable doubt among atheists, but not so much among most theists.

You even agree, the bible can't be taken literally, so how do you know what portion of the NT that describes Jesus' words and actions are simply man made for effect and which ones are true?

How do I know *any* historical account is entirely true, and completely true in the sense it gives multiple perspectives? IMO you're putting *way* more requirements on that one book than you're imposing on other historical documents.

I don't necessarily assume *every* word attributed to Jesus was uttered exactly as it's written, but I certainly see a pattern in his teachings regardless of which few paragraphs we might omit.

I agree with Madaz, the story simply can not be reconciled with how God is described by christians and then comparing that to the world we live in.

I don't seem to have much trouble reconciling my "faith" in Christ with the world around me, but I don't start by assuming that the purpose of life is for everyone to 'have fun' all the time, or that good people are immune from physical or emotional discomfort while in form.

Could be why there are so many sects of christianity, because believers are desperate to explain away all the obvious contradictions and no one agrees on the explanation.

Well, the US public can't seem to make up it's mind on how to fix our budget problems either. Everyone seems to have their own beliefs about the competency of the President and the Congress too. Contradictions and variations in human opinions are the rule, not the exception. I therefore fail to see why you'd expect all theists to agree on all topics related to God.

 

[Mr Strawberry]

I don't seem to have much trouble reconciling my "faith" in Christ with the world around me, but I don't start by assuming that the purpose of life is for everyone to 'have fun' all the time, or that good people are immune from physical or emotional discomfort while in form.

There's a difference between reconciling a non-interventionist god and human global suffering, and reconciling the apparently selective interventions of a loving god with the enormous suffering in the world. If god intervenes and does so selectively then there is a huge glaringly obvious problem that has never been reconciled by any christian ever.