American Tract Society & the American Sunday School Union Agree ~

[Leaf473]

Hi FredVB, great to hear from you again

Here's the train of thought, as best as I can reconstruct it

To be clear, all the permission to have meat from animals that there was ever from God is Noachian, that from the time of Noah, that is the only permission for anyone to have meat from animals

It looks to me like in some places the law of Moses goes beyond permission into imperative.

There were commandments for eating meat because there were the sacrifices and meat was still being eaten

There were commandments for eating meat, and I think that was my point.

The commandment, focused on sacrifice for blood related to atonement, in which there was meat then, to be eaten or to be thrown out, was for Israel, and it is a memorial now. There is no general commandment to eat meat, it would not be within the design from God, which was shown.

So the thing I was getting at, I believe, was that there were Commandments to eat meat and they aren't all from the time of Noah.

In addition, we have this passage. Abraham believes that meat is a good thing to serve to your honored guests

Bible Gateway passage: Genesis 18:7 - New King James Version

And Abraham ran to the herd, took a tender and good calf, gave it to a young man, and he hastened to prepare it.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Leaf473]

And closer to the thread topic,

Worshipping on Sunday is not Biblical at all...

I think the biblical approach is to worship God every day, including the Sabbath and Sunday

Bible Gateway passage: Colossians 3:16 - New King James Version

Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[The Liturgist]

Worshipping on Sunday is not Biblical at all...as you can see, even the American Tract Society and the American Sunday School Union admit that the Bible is "silent" on the observance of Sunday and the change of the Sabbath from the 7th to the 1st day of the week.

​

​

The American Tract Society and the American Sunday School Union admits “the complete silence of the New Testament so far as any explicit command for the Sabbath [Sunday, the first day of the week] or definite rules for its observance are concerned.”—George Elliott, The Abiding Sabbath, page 184.​

​

​

Another says: “Up to the time of Christ's death, no change had been made in the day;” and, “so far as the record shows, they [the apostles] did not ... give any explicit command enjoining the abandonment of the seventh-day Sabbath, and its observance on the first day of the week.”—A. E. Waffle, The Lord's Day, pages 186-188.​

​

Do you think it really SAFE to follow TRADITION when God Himself CLEARLY says, "Remember the seventh day to keep it holy..."? He wrote that in STONE with His own FINGER.... It's the ONLY thing in the whole Bible that God wrote in STONE...and yet, 99% of Christians today say it doesn't matter which day you choose to keep holy...

These organizations are not relevant to the majority of Christians. The American Tract Society produces evangelical tracts which I believe distort the Gospel and also are distributed in an annoying manner which makes the evangelization of the irreligious more difficult, and the American Sunday School Union, which rebranded 11 years before you posted this to “InFaith” (which makes me doubt the current accuracy of your statement; perhaps someone from their organization said this at one time, but it might not reflect their current views) is part of the Sunday School Movement, which is actually controversial, in that several Sunday Schools envisaged their pupils becoming Sunday School teachers and thus replacing traditional churches altogether, and there are actually two surviving former independent Sunday Schools that transformed into churches in the United States.

From an Orthodox perspective I am hugely opposed to children being “dismissed for Sunday school”; in my own ministry one reason I limit my sermons to 15 minutes is to avoid doing that. Orthodox children thus experience the entire Divine Liturgy in all of its splendor, and many of them serve in the altar or in other capacities. We do have various classes for children, but these do not clash with the main service.

At any rate, if InFaith and the American Tract Society still hold to this belief, they are obviously in error, ignoring, for example, the descent of the Holy Spirit and other vital occurrences on the First Day, such as the Creation of the Universe.

In the name of Christ our True God, Let There Be Light, now and ever and unto the ages of ages!

 

[Leaf473]

These organizations are not relevant to the majority of Christians. The American Tract Society produces evangelical tracts which I believe distort the Gospel and also are distributed in an annoying manner which makes the evangelization of the irreligious more difficult, and the American Sunday School Union, which rebranded 11 years before you posted this to “InFaith” (which makes me doubt the current accuracy of your statement; perhaps someone from their organization said this at one time, but it might not reflect their current views) is part of the Sunday School Movement, which is actually controversial, in that several Sunday Schools envisaged their pupils becoming Sunday School teachers and thus replacing traditional churches altogether, and there are actually two surviving former independent Sunday Schools that transformed into churches in the United States.

From an Orthodox perspective I am hugely opposed to children being “dismissed for Sunday school”;

...in my own ministry one reason I limit my sermons to 15 minutes is to avoid doing that. Orthodox children thus experience the entire Divine Liturgy in all of its splendor, and many of them serve in the altar or in other capacities. We do have various classes for children, but these do not clash with the main service.

At any rate, if InFaith and the American Tract Society still hold to this belief, they are obviously in error, ignoring, for example, the descent of the Holy Spirit and other vital occurrences on the First Day, such as the Creation of the Universe.

Amen to children being present!

In the name of Christ our True God, Let There Be Light, now and ever and unto the ages of ages!

Amen!

 

[bbbbbbb]

The commandment, focused on sacrifice for blood related to atonement, in which there was meat then, to be eaten or to be thrown out, was for Israel, and it is a memorial now. There is no general commandment to eat meat, it would not be within the design from God, which was shown.

Here we get into the regulative principle versus the normative principle of worship. Simply stated, the regulative principle is that if God has not commanded something, then it is forbidden. The normative principle, at the opposite side, is that unless God has forbidden something it is acceptable. Taken to an extreme, either principle can lead to some bizarre consequences.

The Puritans were famous in using the regulative principle. One of the really troubling applications was the use of artificial heating in meetinghouses. God had never commanded such a thing. ln addition, heating, in the form of fireplaces, was often the source of the destruction of meetinghouses and, all to often, human life. Therefore, the Puritans refused to heat their meetinghouses. This was not a problem in southern England where they came from, with its relatively mild winter climate. Nor would it have been a problem if their services were like ours - an hour on Sunday mornings. However, the services went from sunrise to sunset. In New England, with its bitterly cold winters, frostbite was common as a result of sitting in a meetinghouse all day once a week, not to mention other physical maladies.

When Benjamin Franklin developed the lightning rod, there was a similar problem. God had never commanded lightning rods and, in fact, lightning was seen as God's judgement. Thus, when a church steeple attracted lightning and the church burned to the ground it was interpreted as God's wrath on a proud and vain congregation. If a congregation installed a lightning rod on its steeple it was further evidence that they were proud and vain in their attempt to thwart the vengeance of a righteous and holy God.

 

[bbbbbbb]

These organizations are not relevant to the majority of Christians. The American Tract Society produces evangelical tracts which I believe distort the Gospel and also are distributed in an annoying manner which makes the evangelization of the irreligious more difficult, and the American Sunday School Union, which rebranded 11 years before you posted this to “InFaith” (which makes me doubt the current accuracy of your statement; perhaps someone from their organization said this at one time, but it might not reflect their current views) is part of the Sunday School Movement, which is actually controversial, in that several Sunday Schools envisaged their pupils becoming Sunday School teachers and thus replacing traditional churches altogether, and there are actually two surviving former independent Sunday Schools that transformed into churches in the United States.

From an Orthodox perspective I am hugely opposed to children being “dismissed for Sunday school”; in my own ministry one reason I limit my sermons to 15 minutes is to avoid doing that. Orthodox children thus experience the entire Divine Liturgy in all of its splendor, and many of them serve in the altar or in other capacities. We do have various classes for children, but these do not clash with the main service.

At any rate, if InFaith and the American Tract Society still hold to this belief, they are obviously in error, ignoring, for example, the descent of the Holy Spirit and other vital occurrences on the First Day, such as the Creation of the Universe.

In the name of Christ our True God, Let There Be Light, now and ever and unto the ages of ages!

I am in complete agreement with your post. One of the problems, IMO, with "children's church" is that it dumbs down Christian worship and raises a generation of generally ignorant and irreverent adults.

Initially, Sunday school was not intended to be religious, but to provide basic education for children who were working twelve-hour shifts six days a week in factories and mills. The school lessons were provided on Sunday afternoons for the children, thus not conflicting with the church services in the mornings and evenings and, hopefully, as a means of encouraging the children to also attend the services. Children were typically assigned to sit in their own pews in a certain section of the church building. Frequently, men sat on on side and women on the other with children in the gallery, along with other misfits such as individuals who did not pay the pew rents, if there was a gallery in the church. In the Church of England seating varied considerably after the introduction of pews. In the nineteenth century the central aisle was quite wide such that open-backed benches were provided for the poor and the children. Rented pews could be fitted up according to the renter's taste. It was not unknown during the seventeenth century for the pews of the aristocracy to become small chapels complete with fireplaces.

However, I digress. It seems that early on some bright individual decided to solve the problem of restless children and crying infants by introducing Sunday School on Sunday mornings for religious instruction only. As you know, it was a highly contentious innovation. Many churches developed an independent hour for instruction of both adults and children and I appreciate such opportunities, whether or not they fall on Sunday mornings or any other time during the week. It is when, in the name of efficiency, that the two overlap that I am opposed to the idea.

I also heartily commend you for limiting your sermons to 15 minutes. Aside from the excellent reasons you cited, there is the simple fact that the normal adult attention span for any form of lecture or address is about 15 minutes. I suffer from a mild form of narcolepsy and cannot avoid falling asleep in church after about twenty minutes of listening to a sermon. It is embarrassing, but I have learned to live with it.

 

[BobRyan]

Worshipping on Sunday is not Biblical at all...as you can see, even the American Tract Society and the American Sunday School Union admit that the Bible is "silent" on the observance of Sunday and the change of the Sabbath from the 7th to the 1st day of the week.

​

​

The American Tract Society and the American Sunday School Union admits “the complete silence of the New Testament so far as any explicit command for the Sabbath [Sunday, the first day of the week] or definite rules for its observance are concerned.”—George Elliott, The Abiding Sabbath, page 184.​

​

​

Another says: “Up to the time of Christ's death, no change had been made in the day;” and, “so far as the record shows, they [the apostles] did not ... give any explicit command enjoining the abandonment of the seventh-day Sabbath, and its observance on the first day of the week.”—A. E. Waffle, The Lord's Day, pages 186-188.​

​

Do you think it really SAFE to follow TRADITION when God Himself CLEARLY says, "Remember the seventh day to keep it holy..."? He wrote that in STONE with His own FINGER.... It's the ONLY thing in the whole Bible that God wrote in STONE...and yet, 99% of Christians today say it doesn't matter which day you choose to keep holy...

good point.

1. Not one text in the NT says "the Sabbath is now kept on the first day of the week"
2. Not one text in the NT says "we now keep the first day of the week as the Lord's Day"
3. Not one text in the NT says "we meet for worship every week day 1"
4. Not one text in the NT says "We meet on week day 1 in honor of the resurrection on week day 1"
5. Not one text in the NT says "The Lord's day is on week day 1"
6. Not one text in the NT says "Ignore the Commandments of God"
7. Not one text in the NT says "ignore scripture, ignore what the Holy Spirit says"

Mark 7:7-13 condemns Jewish tradition that tries to run over one of the Commandments of God

What we DO Find in the NT is
1. "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
2. "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12
3. "this IS the Love of God that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5:3
Where "The first commandment WITH a promise is - Honor your father and mother(Ex 20:12) " Eph 6:2

Acts 20: 25 “And indeed, now I know that you all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, will see my face no more. 26 Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men. 27 For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God. 28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

For all eternity after the cross in the New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship" Is 66:23

 

[bbbbbbb]

good point.

1. Not one text in the NT says "the Sabbath is now kept on the first day of the week"
2. Not one text in the NT says "we now keep the first day of the week as the Lord's Day"
3. Not one text in the NT says "we meet for worship every week day 1"
4. Not one text in the NT says "We meet on week day 1 in honor of the resurrection on week day 1"
5. Not one text in the NT says "The Lord's day is on week day 1"
6. Not one text in the NT says "Ignore the Commandments of God"
7. Not one text in the NT says "ignore scripture, ignore what the Holy Spirit says"

Mark 7:7-13 condemns Jewish tradition that tries to run over one of the Commandments of God

What we DO Find in the NT is
1. "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
2. "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12
3. "this IS the Love of God that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5:3
Where "The first commandment WITH a promise is - Honor your father and mother(Ex 20:12) " Eph 6:2

Acts 20: 25 “And indeed, now I know that you all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, will see my face no more. 26 Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men. 27 For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God. 28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

For all eternity after the cross in the New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship" Is 66:23

Do you favor a strict interpretation of the Regulative Principle of Worship?

 

[The Liturgist]

good point.

1. Not one text in the NT says "the Sabbath is now kept on the first day of the week"
2. Not one text in the NT says "we now keep the first day of the week as the Lord's Day"
3. Not one text in the NT says "we meet for worship every week day 1"
4. Not one text in the NT says "We meet on week day 1 in honor of the resurrection on week day 1"
5. Not one text in the NT says "The Lord's day is on week day 1"
6. Not one text in the NT says "Ignore the Commandments of God"
7. Not one text in the NT says "ignore scripture, ignore what the Holy Spirit says"

Mark 7:7-13 condemns Jewish tradition that tries to run over one of the Commandments of God

What we DO Find in the NT is
1. "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
2. "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12
3. "this IS the Love of God that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5:3
Where "The first commandment WITH a promise is - Honor your father and mother(Ex 20:12) " Eph 6:2

Acts 20: 25 “And indeed, now I know that you all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, will see my face no more. 26 Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men. 27 For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God. 28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

For all eternity after the cross in the New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship" Is 66:23

This is all irrelevant, because the meaning of the Sabbath was the day that God rested, first after creating mankind, and then after recreating mankind. He then rose on a Sunday, having created the world on Sunday, and it was on Sunday at the ninth hour that the Holy Spirit descended.

The reason why the Church worships on Sunday is because it was on Sunday that Christ rose from the dead. The Orthodox also worship on Saturday, with Saturday, due to it being associated with rest and repose, particularly the repose of Christ in the tomb, being used in Lent and the pre-Lenten season for Soul Saturdays, which are dedicated to prayers and memorials of the departed.

We know that Sunday worship is correct because of its Patristic attestation and the Scriptural facts that support such a use case (which include our Lord blatantly defying Jewish Sabbath regulations; I don’t see why Adventists ought to be forbidden from shopping or conducting important work on the Sabbath when our Lord and His disciples collected food on the Sabbath and our Lord also engaged in healing and exorcism.

At any rate, since St. Justin Martyr declared in his writings from the second century that the principle day of worship is Saturday, and since the Nicene Creed, which the SDA Church claims to adhere to, was put forward in 325 AD and refined in 381 AD, and since St. Athanasius of Alexandria was the principle advocate of the Nicene Creed against Arianism* and was the first to define the 27 book New Testament canon, for without him, we would likely have had a 22 book canon such as that of the Peshitta, without Revelation, 2 Peter, and other important books, or alternately we would have wound up with the Shepherd of Hermas and perhaps even 1 Barnabas being included, since the Canon was not a settled affair until the 39 book canon was outlined by St. Athanasius and commended by him for use by the Egyptian bishops under his omophorion (you might say “umbrella”, but basically, they comprised the Holy Synod of the Church of Alexandria, which later split into the Greek Orthodox Church of Alexandria and the much larger Coptic Orthodox Church), and this canon was subsequently adopted by the Roman and Constantinopolitan churches, and from there spread to Jerusalem, Antioch and Cyprus, with only the Assyrian Church of the East not completely adopting it (specifically, they regard it as canonical, but they never added the additional five books not in the Peshitta to their lectionary, perhaps because they lacked the resources to translate them; the Syriac Orthodox translater Mar Thomas of Harqel translated these five books and they were included in the Western Peshitta, and the Maronites separated from the Syriac Orthodox in a schism and settled in Lebanon, while the Orthodox members of the St. Thomas Christians of the Malabar Coast, who had been under the omophorion of the Assyrian Catholicos of the East, but after the Portuguese invasion and the Coonan Cross Oath, wound up mostly becoming Syriac Orthodox (although a small minority of Syro Malabar Catholics later rejoined the Church of the East in the 19th century).

Thus, since the scriptures you rely on for your argument were recognized as canonical by people who believed Sunday was the principle day of worship, this undermines your argument, since you would have to somehow argue that a great apostasy happened immediately after the Apostles died, which contradicts Matthew 16:18 and the historical record. The basis for Sunday worship is clearly established in the four Gospels, Acts, and in Genesis 1:1.

And as I have noted previously, there is not only no scriptural prohibition of Sunday worship, but an explicit command for it, in that Christ instructed us to pray without ceasing, and we are encouraged to pray as a congregation of at least two or three in the name of Christ our True God. Therefore it is desirable that Christians worship in Church on every day of the week.

Lastly I would note that Ellen G. White does not appear to have been aware of the existence or the history of the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and Assyrian churches, or of the nature of heretical sects of the early church, and as I see it this can be interpreted as contrary to the idea that her voluminous writing constitutes inspired prophecy. Whether it is or is not inspired prophecy, I will not take an opinion on in this thread. However I will say that her work would be more credible if she had read more and written less.

For all of these reasons, Adventists should leave traditional liturgical Christians alone and stop bothering us about our adherence to two millennia of Church Tradition. I am confident if this happens, the traditional liturgical Christians will not criticize Adventist praxis.

*Arianism was a theological error that was opposed by Ellen G. White but which was fairly widespread among Millerites and exists among some “Traditional Adventists” outside the SDA mainstream at present.

 

[Leaf473]

This is all irrelevant, because the meaning of the Sabbath was the day that God rested, first after creating mankind, and then after recreating mankind. He then rose on a Sunday, having created the world on Sunday, and it was on Sunday at the ninth hour that the Holy Spirit descended.

The reason why the Church worships on Sunday is because it was on Sunday that Christ rose from the dead. The Orthodox also worship on Saturday, with Saturday, due to it being associated with rest and repose, particularly the repose of Christ in the tomb, being used in Lent and the pre-Lenten season for Soul Saturdays, which are dedicated to prayers and memorials of the departed.

We know that Sunday worship is correct because of its Patristic attestation and the Scriptural facts that support such a use case (which include our Lord blatantly defying Jewish Sabbath regulations; I don’t see why Adventists ought to be forbidden from shopping or conducting important work on the Sabbath when our Lord and His disciples collected food on the Sabbath and our Lord also engaged in healing and exorcism.

At any rate, since St. Justin Martyr declared in his writings from the second century that the principle day of worship is Saturday, and since the Nicene Creed, which the SDA Church claims to adhere to, was put forward in 325 AD and refined in 381 AD, and since St. Athanasius of Alexandria was the principle advocate of the Nicene Creed against Arianism* and was the first to define the 27 book New Testament canon, for without him, we would likely have had a 22 book canon such as that of the Peshitta, without Revelation, 2 Peter, and other important books, or alternately we would have wound up with the Shepherd of Hermas and perhaps even 1 Barnabas being included, since the Canon was not a settled affair until the 39 book canon was outlined by St. Athanasius and commended by him for use by the Egyptian bishops under his omophorion (you might say “umbrella”, but basically, they comprised the Holy Synod of the Church of Alexandria, which later split into the Greek Orthodox Church of Alexandria and the much larger Coptic Orthodox Church), and this canon was subsequently adopted by the Roman and Constantinopolitan churches, and from there spread to Jerusalem, Antioch and Cyprus, with only the Assyrian Church of the East not completely adopting it (specifically, they regard it as canonical, but they never added the additional five books not in the Peshitta to their lectionary, perhaps because they lacked the resources to translate them; the Syriac Orthodox translater Mar Thomas of Harqel translated these five books and they were included in the Western Peshitta, and the Maronites separated from the Syriac Orthodox in a schism and settled in Lebanon, while the Orthodox members of the St. Thomas Christians of the Malabar Coast, who had been under the omophorion of the Assyrian Catholicos of the East, but after the Portuguese invasion and the Coonan Cross Oath, wound up mostly becoming Syriac Orthodox (although a small minority of Syro Malabar Catholics later rejoined the Church of the East in the 19th century).

Thus, since the scriptures you rely on for your argument were recognized as canonical by people who believed Sunday was the principle day of worship, this undermines your argument, since you would have to somehow argue that a great apostasy happened immediately after the Apostles died, which contradicts Matthew 16:18 and the historical record. The basis for Sunday worship is clearly established in the four Gospels, Acts, and in Genesis 1:1.

True. If the church had no authority, the individual today has no Bible; unless that individual makes up their own Bible.

And as I have noted previously, there is not only no scriptural prohibition of Sunday worship, but an explicit command for it, in that Christ instructed us to pray without ceasing, and we are encouraged to pray as a congregation of at least two or three in the name of Christ our True God. Therefore it is desirable that Christians worship in Church on every day of the week.

Lastly I would note that Ellen G. White does not appear to have been aware of the existence or the history of the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and Assyrian churches, or of the nature of heretical sects of the early church, and as I see it this can be interpreted as contrary to the idea that her voluminous writing constitutes inspired prophecy. Whether it is or is not inspired prophecy, I will not take an opinion on in this thread. However I will say that her work would be more credible if she had read more and written less.

For all of these reasons, Adventists should leave traditional liturgical Christians alone and stop bothering us about our adherence to two millennia of Church Tradition. I am confident if this happens, the traditional liturgical Christians will not criticize Adventist praxis.

*Arianism was a theological error that was opposed by Ellen G. White but which was fairly widespread among Millerites and exists among some “Traditional Adventists” outside the SDA mainstream at present.

 

[BobRyan]

Worshipping on Sunday is not Biblical at all...as you can see, even the American Tract Society and the American Sunday School Union admit that the Bible is "silent" on the observance of Sunday and the change of the Sabbath from the 7th to the 1st day of the week.

​

The American Tract Society and the American Sunday School Union admits “the complete silence of the New Testament so far as any explicit command for the Sabbath [Sunday, the first day of the week] or definite rules for its observance are concerned.”—George Elliott, The Abiding Sabbath, page 184.​

​

Another says: “Up to the time of Christ's death, no change had been made in the day;” and, “so far as the record shows, they [the apostles] did not ... give any explicit command enjoining the abandonment of the seventh-day Sabbath, and its observance on the first day of the week.”—A. E. Waffle, The Lord's Day, pages 186-188.​

Do you think it really SAFE to follow TRADITION when God Himself CLEARLY says, "Remember the seventh day to keep it holy..."? He wrote that in STONE with His own FINGER.... It's the ONLY thing in the whole Bible that God wrote in STONE...and yet, 99% of Christians today say it doesn't matter which day you choose to keep holy...

good point.

1. Not one text in the NT says "the Sabbath is now kept on the first day of the week"
2. Not one text in the NT says "we now keep the first day of the week as the Lord's Day"
3. Not one text in the NT says "we meet for worship every week day 1"
4. Not one text in the NT says "We meet on week day 1 in honor of the resurrection on week day 1"
5. Not one text in the NT says "The Lord's day is on week day 1"
6. Not one text in the NT says "Ignore the Commandments of God"
7. Not one text in the NT says "ignore scripture, ignore what the Holy Spirit says"

Mark 7:7-13 condemns Jewish tradition that tries to run over one of the Commandments of God

What we DO Find in the NT is
1. "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
2. "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12
3. "this IS the Love of God that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5:3
Where "The first commandment WITH a promise is - Honor your father and mother(Ex 20:12) " Eph 6:2

Acts 20: 25 “And indeed, now I know that you all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, will see my face no more. 26 Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men. 27 For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God. 28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

For all eternity after the cross in the New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship" Is 66:23

This is all irrelevant

Maybe what you meant to say is "those texts are inconvenient in my POV".

I notice you reference no scripture at all in response to the texts above that post in affirmation of the OP -- making them "highly relevant" to the topic of this thread - as it turns out.,

, because the meaning of the Sabbath was the day that God rested, first after creating mankind

Which scripture says was the 7th day.

Ex 20:
8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. ... 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

which comes directly from creation week in Gen 2

Gen 2: 2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

I don't see how this is even a tiny bit confusing to the reader.

The reason why the Church worships on Sunday is because it was on Sunday that Christ rose from the dead.

No one denies that many church do that very thing. But that is not what scripture says about the Sabbath or the reason for observing it.

So fine - have all the man-made tradition one wishes, it still does not change the word of God on the topic of what the Sabbath is or what day it refers to .

We know that Sunday worship is correct because of its Patristic attestation and the Scriptural facts that support such a use case

This thread would be a good place to post those "scripture facts" in that case.

Until then -- we all can see the following facts clearly...

• Not One Sabbath commandment in scripture (OT or NT) says “pick one day a week as your Sabbath”
• Not one instance of the phrase “one day in seven” – in the entire Bible
• Not one instance of the phrase “one day a week” – in the entire Bible
• God did not say “keep one day a week Holy” – He said “remember THE Sabbath to keep it holy… the seventh day IS the Sabbath of the LORD” Ex 20:8-11
• Michael Youssef’s teaching series on the Commandments admits that the Sabbath, as given by God in the Commandments was “from Friday evening to Saturday Evening”
• Not ONE NT text says “Sunday is the Sabbath” or “week day 1 is the Sabbath”
• Not ONE NT text says “week day one is the LORD’s day”
• Not ONE NT text says “we keep week day one instead of the Sabbath after the cross. “
• Not ONE NT text says “we meet for worship each week on week day 1 – called the Lord’s day”
• Youssef’s book “How to read the Bible like your life depended on it”

Page 60 – “God’s Law is the moral standard, and it is immutable”

• Not one text in the NT says "the Sabbath is now kept on the first day of the week"
• Not one text in the NT says "we now keep the first day of the week as the Lord's Day"
• Not one text in the NT says "We meet on week day 1 in honor of the resurrection on week day 1"
• Not one text in the NT says "The Lord's day is on week day 1"
• Not one text in the NT says "Christians ignore the Commandments of God"
• Not one text in the NT says "ignore scripture, ignore what the Holy Spirit says, pay Attention to Christ instead". As if some conflict exists

Mark 7:7-13 condemns Jewish tradition that tries to run over one of the Commandments of God

 

[BobRyan]

Do you favor a strict interpretation of the Regulative Principle of Worship?

Col 2:
8 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God.

20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations— 21 “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” 22 which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.

Paul clearly teaches that some practices in the realm of worship are corrupt and gives examples of such - but he does not list every corrupt form possible in all of time nor does he provide a strict liturgy stating that all outside of it - is sin.

In any case - not the subject of this thread - since corporate worship to God as well as private worship is valid on day day of the week.

 

[BobRyan]

Therefore it is desirable that Christians worship in Church on every day of the week.

This thread is not about "what days can we not worship God". It is specifically about the holy day God set aside for worship (the Sabbath) where no secular activity is permitted on that day since it distracts from the purpose of the day.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Col 2:
8 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God.

20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations— 21 “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” 22 which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.

Paul clearly teaches that some practices in the realm of worship are corrupt and gives examples of such - but he does not list every corrupt form possible in all of time nor does he provide a strict liturgy stating that all outside of it - is sin.

In any case - not the subject of this thread - since corporate worship to God as well as private worship is valid on day day of the week.

You could have answered with a simple yes or no. As it seems from your response, you lean heavily toward a partial application of the Regulative Principle of Worship. Please correct me if I am mistaken.

 

[The Liturgist]

This thread is not about "what days can we not worship God". It is specifically about the holy day God set aside for worship (the Sabbath) where no secular activity is permitted on that day since it distracts from the purpose of the day.

Firstly, the Orthodox Church recognizes Saturday as the Sabbath since Christ reposed on that day, and we use that day for worship throughout the year, with a particular focus during Lent on Soul Saturdays in which we pray for the salvation and repose of our deceased loved ones.

Secular activity plainly is permitted on that day because Christ our True God expressly condones secular activities on the Sabbath, in Matthew 12 and in equivalent pericopes in the other Synoptic Gospels.

The Lord of the Sabbath

(1 Samuel 21:1-9; Mark 2:23-28; Luke 6:1-5)

1At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat. 2But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day. 3But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him; 4How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests? 5Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless? 6But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple. 7But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

8For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

Jesus Heals on the Sabbath

(Mark 3:1-6; Luke 6:6-11)
9And when he was departed thence, he went into their synagogue: 10And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him. 11And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift itout? 12How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days. 13Then saith he to the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it forth; and it was restored whole, like as the other. 14Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him.

Additionally, St. Paul the Apostle, in his Epistle to the Colossians, instructs us in chapter 12 vs. 16=17: 16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

So the assertion of yours that secular activity is not allowed on the Sabbath is entirely contrary to the plain words of Christ our True God and His Holy Apostle St. Paul. Indeed Adventist teaching in general contradicts St. Paul to an extremely substantial extent; this problem also exists in some forms of Messianic Judaism, and in Seventh Day Baptism, and among the Christian Molokans (a small sect of Russians who converted to either Messianic Judaism or actual Judaism, many of whom emigrated to California, where most of their descendants converted back to Russian Orthodoxy). I have yet to see a satisfactory, verse by verse exegesis of the Pauline Epistles by Adventists; indeed given how radically different SDA doctrine is even from mainstream Baptist doctrine, I think a a complete verse by verse exegesis of SDA doctrine for the entire New Testament would be useful. Specifically, I would to see how Adventists understand and interpret every verse in context with every other verse and also in context with the writings of Ellen G. White, whose influence over SDA doctrine cannot be overstated, since she is regarded as an entirely infallible prophet, which actually gives her more authority than most Popes of Rome.

 

[FredVB]

So the thing I was getting at, I believe, was that there were Commandments to eat meat and they aren't all from the time of Noah.

In addition, we have this passage. Abraham believes that meat is a good thing to serve to your honored guests.

My points would not involve what Abraham or anyone else think their doing is a good thing, I say nothing in judging about it. It really was not about commandments either as I wasn't speaking to those, not that commandments are not important to observe to do, I was not one here saying that. My point, to be clear, is about what we might see and what God's highest will is, which does not contradict what is shown in the only place in the Bible that God called "very good", which was in the beginning, Genesis 1:29-31. There will be restoration to this with creation groaning for that in hope, shown in prophecies such as Isaiah 11:6-9. There are passages over and over showing God's care for any creatures that believers often overlook. Consider Hosea 6:6, "For I desire mercy and not sacrifice, and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings", or Proverbs 12:10. I might go on with passages for that at length but it would not all be looked at, but they are there, I do get verses quoted back at me to counter me while a lot of those are out of context. To be sure, I spoke about this originally in this thread in response to the use of animals being mentioned already.

Here we get into the regulative principle versus the normative principle of worship. Simply stated, the regulative principle is that if God has not commanded something, then it is forbidden. The normative principle, at the opposite side, is that unless God has forbidden something it is acceptable. Taken to an extreme, either principle can lead to some bizarre consequences.

The Puritans were famous in using the regulative principle.

This is not related to my point, which as said involves God's higher will. I am really quite liberal about things not contrary to Bible passages though I find believers, even here, would be saying such things are against the Bible, showing they are ones who use regulative argument. God permits other things being shown to us. Things not mentioned are acceptable, if there is not anything meant in the Bible that would be contrary to those, and such is not what is contrary to our conscience for us as it is said the Bible. I would be going further off topic to speak further on that. But speaking of the commandments is about what really is said in the Bible, and while Sabbath is mentioned frequently, with its importance, nothing is said of the first day of the week being replacement for remembering Sabbath, the seventh day.

 

[BobRyan]

So the thing I was getting at, I believe, was that there were Commandments to eat meat and they aren't all from the time of Noah.

Passover is a good example of one of them.

But there was no command to eat rats.
And even in Noah's day "as I gave you the green plant" - where in fact - some plants are poisonous and others are not , was in the context of the Gen 6-8 reference to "clean vs unclean" animals. The case at that time was that the unclean only came in "by twos" so eating one" of the unclean would cause that species to go extinct very quickly.

Not sure how this spin off got created on an American Sunday School - topic thread... but I can guess.

 

[Leaf473]

My points would not involve what Abraham or anyone else think their doing is a good thing, I say nothing in judging about it. It really was not about commandments either as I wasn't speaking to those, not that commandments are not important to observe to do, I was not one here saying that. My point, to be clear, is about what we might see and what God's highest will is, which does not contradict what is shown in the only place in the Bible that God called "very good", which was in the beginning, Genesis 1:29-31. There will be restoration to this with creation groaning for that in hope, shown in prophecies such as Isaiah 11:6-9. There are passages over and over showing God's care for any creatures that believers often overlook. Consider Hosea 6:6, "For I desire mercy and not sacrifice, and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings", or Proverbs 12:10. I might go on with passages for that at length but it would not all be looked at, but they are there,

...I do get verses quoted back at me to counter me while a lot of those are out of context.

Do you believe I took this passage out of context?

Bible Gateway passage: Genesis 18:7 - New King James Version

And Abraham ran to the herd, took a tender and good calf, gave it to a young man, and he hastened to prepare it.

www.biblegateway.com

To be sure, I spoke about this originally in this thread in response to the use of animals being mentioned already.



This is not related to my point, which as said involves God's higher will. I am really quite liberal about things not contrary to Bible passages though I find believers, even here, would be saying such things are against the Bible, showing they are ones who use regulative argument. God permits other things being shown to us. Things not mentioned are acceptable, if there is not anything meant in the Bible that would be contrary to those, and such is not what is contrary to our conscience for us as it is said the Bible. I would be going further off topic to speak further on that. But speaking of the commandments is about what really is said in the Bible, and while Sabbath is mentioned frequently, with its importance, nothing is said of the first day of the week being replacement for remembering Sabbath, the seventh day.

 

[Leaf473]

Passover is a good example of one of them.

But there was no command to eat rats.
And even in Noah's day "as I gave you the green plant" - where in fact - some plants are poisonous and others are not , was in the context of the Gen 6-8 reference to "clean vs unclean" animals. The case at that time was that the unclean only came in "by twos" so eating one" of the unclean would cause that species to go extinct very quickly.

Not sure how this spin off got created on an American Sunday School - topic thread... but I can guess.

If you guessed post #430, I agree

I invite you to respond to post #502, if you wish

 

[FredVB]

Do you believe I took this passage out of context?

Bible Gateway passage: Genesis 18:7 - New King James Version

And Abraham ran to the herd, took a tender and good calf, gave it to a young man, and he hastened to prepare it.

www.biblegateway.com

Yes, there are such examples in the Bible, God is not after us for how we eat, from our choices, I do not say God is, so such passages are not relevant, and kind of strawman to what I do say. If not sure of what I say, ask, and I will try saying it again in a more clear way.

If you guessed post #430, I agree

I invite you to respond to post #502, if you wish

It is true, I went to where I posted in this thread and that was it. Why? It was still a response to a claim in the post before it. You don't see? I will say it again to explain what I posted. The claim was that we are just under the Noachide permission and the first council, the apostolic one, in Jerusalem. I do not actually say that myself. But with just those, it really has to be true, which I rightly point out, if you still eat meat, regardless of points I might mention, some of which I did, you still must be avoiding blood, that must be removed already before taking it to be cooked for your food. Blood in it while cooking is not being removed that way. Otherwise, claim to have permission for meat and having it is faulty and that which the apostles agreed to in the stated permission God spoke to Noah is being disobeyed, the permission for that was never given. And I say there are reasons one should not take the body of an animal with its blood, for using as food. And the design God made for us to start with is much much better.

Now, about the Sabbath, which we can talk about here, is it good to observe it, or not? I do not see anything suggesting that it is not good to do so.

We have choices, God is not against us for choosing one way or another. But there are better choices for us.