American Tract Society & the American Sunday School Union Agree ~

[The Liturgist]

good point.

1. Not one text in the NT says "the Sabbath is now kept on the first day of the week"
2. Not one text in the NT says "we now keep the first day of the week as the Lord's Day"
3. Not one text in the NT says "we meet for worship every week day 1"
4. Not one text in the NT says "We meet on week day 1 in honor of the resurrection on week day 1"
5. Not one text in the NT says "The Lord's day is on week day 1"
6. Not one text in the NT says "Ignore the Commandments of God"
7. Not one text in the NT says "ignore scripture, ignore what the Holy Spirit says"

Mark 7:7-13 condemns Jewish tradition that tries to run over one of the Commandments of God

What we DO Find in the NT is
1. "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
2. "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12
3. "this IS the Love of God that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5:3
Where "The first commandment WITH a promise is - Honor your father and mother(Ex 20:12) " Eph 6:2

Acts 20: 25 “And indeed, now I know that you all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, will see my face no more. 26 Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men. 27 For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God. 28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

For all eternity after the cross in the New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship" Is 66:23

Maybe what you meant to say is "those texts are inconvenient in my POV".

I notice you reference no scripture at all in response to the texts above that post in affirmation of the OP -- making them "highly relevant" to the topic of this thread - as it turns out.,


Which scripture says was the 7th day.

Ex 20:
8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. ... 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

which comes directly from creation week in Gen 2

Gen 2: 2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

I don't see how this is even a tiny bit confusing to the reader.

No one denies that many church do that very thing. But that is not what scripture says about the Sabbath or the reason for observing it.

So fine - have all the man-made tradition one wishes, it still does not change the word of God on the topic of what the Sabbath is or what day it refers to .

This thread would be a good place to post those "scripture facts" in that case.

Until then -- we all can see the following facts clearly...

• Not One Sabbath commandment in scripture (OT or NT) says “pick one day a week as your Sabbath”
• Not one instance of the phrase “one day in seven” – in the entire Bible
• Not one instance of the phrase “one day a week” – in the entire Bible
• God did not say “keep one day a week Holy” – He said “remember THE Sabbath to keep it holy… the seventh day IS the Sabbath of the LORD” Ex 20:8-11
• Michael Youssef’s teaching series on the Commandments admits that the Sabbath, as given by God in the Commandments was “from Friday evening to Saturday Evening”
• Not ONE NT text says “Sunday is the Sabbath” or “week day 1 is the Sabbath”
• Not ONE NT text says “week day one is the LORD’s day”
• Not ONE NT text says “we keep week day one instead of the Sabbath after the cross. “
• Not ONE NT text says “we meet for worship each week on week day 1 – called the Lord’s day”
• Youssef’s book “How to read the Bible like your life depended on it”

Page 60 – “God’s Law is the moral standard, and it is immutable”

• Not one text in the NT says "the Sabbath is now kept on the first day of the week"
• Not one text in the NT says "we now keep the first day of the week as the Lord's Day"
• Not one text in the NT says "We meet on week day 1 in honor of the resurrection on week day 1"
• Not one text in the NT says "The Lord's day is on week day 1"
• Not one text in the NT says "Christians ignore the Commandments of God"
• Not one text in the NT says "ignore scripture, ignore what the Holy Spirit says, pay Attention to Christ instead". As if some conflict exists

Mark 7:7-13 condemns Jewish tradition that tries to run over one of the Commandments of God

This response is largely irrelevant because I was not addressing worshipping on the Sabbath but rather the propriety of worshipping on Sunday, the feast of the Resurrection. As it happens the early church celebrated liturgies on both days, and traditional churches continue to do so. During Lent, the Orthodox at present have Soul Saturdays, in which our relatives who are reposing in a Heavenly sabbath are prayed for, in addition to the Divine Liturgy on Sunday, which is naturally always focused on the Resurrection.

But as to your additional litany of bullet points, several of these are both wrong and/or inapplicable. For example, the Orthodox, and the Roman Catholics, and the traditional liturgical Protestants do not ignore the Commandments of God. We recognize Christ as our True God and we follow His instructions, including what He taught us about the Sabbath personally and through His apostle Paul.

I don’t understand why you chose this path of continued estrangement from ecumenical fellowship. No one would object to the Adventist church worshipping on Saturdays; contrary to what EGW asserted there is no conspiracy to make Saturday worship illegal, except in the Islamic world where worship on both Saturdays and Sundays is interfered with, and these are treated as normal business days, in order to interfere with both Christianity and Judaism, so in Islamic countries, what one finds is that Friday is the principle day of rest, and Thursday takes on some aspects of Saturday or Friday elsewhere. Also in Israel, for that matter, the business week runs Sunday through Thursday, since you have a Jewish majority and the second largest demographic are Muslims, but the situation is not as bad for the Christian community as it is in the Gulf States, where Christian expatriates are expected to worship on Friday in countries such as Oman or even to some extent in the U.A.E. But it is not the case that the other Christian denominations are plotting to forbid worship on Saturday, contrary to Ellen G White’s prophecy. This would directly interfere with our worship. Actually, blue laws limiting activities on Sunday have been being repealed in recent years, so the trend is away from that point.

 

[Leaf473]

Yes, there are such examples in the Bible, God is not after us for how we eat, from our choices, I do not say God is, so such passages are not relevant, and kind of strawman to what I do say.

If not sure of what I say, ask, and I will try saying it again in a more clear way.

I thought I did understand. Please explain

It is true, I went to where I posted in this thread and that was it. Why? It was still a response to a claim in the post before it. You don't see? I will say it again to explain what I posted. The claim was that we are just under the Noachide permission and the first council, the apostolic one, in Jerusalem. I do not actually say that myself. But with just those, it really has to be true, which I rightly point out, if you still eat meat, regardless of points I might mention, some of which I did, you still must be avoiding blood, that must be removed already before taking it to be cooked for your food. Blood in it while cooking is not being removed that way. Otherwise, claim to have permission for meat and having it is faulty and that which the apostles agreed to in the stated permission God spoke to Noah is being disobeyed, the permission for that was never given. And I say there are reasons one should not take the body of an animal with its blood, for using as food. And the design God made for us to start with is much much better.

Now, about the Sabbath, which we can talk about here, is it good to observe it, or not? I do not see anything suggesting that it is not good to do so.

We have choices, God is not against us for choosing one way or another. But there are better choices for us.

Are you saying that observing the Sabbath is not a matter of sin or not, but of living a better life?

Or are you saying something else?

 

[Leaf473]

This response is largely irrelevant because I was not addressing worshipping on the Sabbath but rather the propriety of worshipping on Sunday, the feast of the Resurrection. As it happens the early church celebrated liturgies on both days, and traditional churches continue to do so. During Lent, the Orthodox at present have Soul Saturdays, in which our relatives who are reposing in a Heavenly sabbath are prayed for, in addition to the Divine Liturgy on Sunday, which is naturally always focused on the Resurrection.

Speaking of worship on this or that day, some years ago I attended an Orthodox service on a Wednesday, I think it was. I believe it was a recurring midweek event.

There was a small choir, chanting, prayers, incense, a homily from the priest... The intensity and sincerity of the people impressed me

Truly,

Bible Gateway passage: Psalm 113:3 - New American Standard Bible

From the rising of the sun to its setting, The name of the LORD is to be praised.

www.biblegateway.com

But as to your additional litany of bullet points, several of these are both wrong and/or inapplicable. For example, the Orthodox, and the Roman Catholics, and the traditional liturgical Protestants do not ignore the Commandments of God. We recognize Christ as our True God and we follow His instructions, including what He taught us about the Sabbath personally and through His apostle Paul.

I don’t understand why you chose this path of continued estrangement from ecumenical fellowship. No one would object to the Adventist church worshipping on Saturdays; contrary to what EGW asserted there is no conspiracy to make Saturday worship illegal, except in the Islamic world where worship on both Saturdays and Sundays is interfered with, and these are treated as normal business days, in order to interfere with both Christianity and Judaism, so in Islamic countries, what one finds is that Friday is the principle day of rest, and Thursday takes on some aspects of Saturday or Friday elsewhere. Also in Israel, for that matter, the business week runs Sunday through Thursday, since you have a Jewish majority and the second largest demographic are Muslims, but the situation is not as bad for the Christian community as it is in the Gulf States, where Christian expatriates are expected to worship on Friday in countries such as Oman or even to some extent in the U.A.E. But it is not the case that the other Christian denominations are plotting to forbid worship on Saturday, contrary to Ellen G White’s prophecy. This would directly interfere with our worship. Actually, blue laws limiting activities on Sunday have been being repealed in recent years, so the trend is away from that point.

 

[BobRyan]

good point.

1. Not one text in the NT says "the Sabbath is now kept on the first day of the week"
2. Not one text in the NT says "we now keep the first day of the week as the Lord's Day"
3. Not one text in the NT says "we meet for worship every week day 1"
4. Not one text in the NT says "We meet on week day 1 in honor of the resurrection on week day 1"
5. Not one text in the NT says "The Lord's day is on week day 1"
6. Not one text in the NT says "Ignore the Commandments of God"
7. Not one text in the NT says "ignore scripture, ignore what the Holy Spirit says"

Mark 7:7-13 condemns Jewish tradition that tries to run over one of the Commandments of God

That quote is actually irrefutable and gets to the entire point of the discussion on whether the OP statement about Sabbath edited in the NT to repoint to week-day-1 is correct.

This response is largely irrelevant because I was not addressing worshipping on the Sabbath but rather the propriety of worshipping on Sunday, the feast of the Resurrection. As it happens the early church celebrated liturgies on both days

My response is in the context of the title of the thread and the OP.

Is your opening sentence a backhanded way of saying "I agree with all of that" now lets talk about the Orthodox church"??

During Lent, the Orthodox at present have Soul Saturdays, in which our relatives who are reposing in a Heavenly sabbath are prayed for

The Sabbath commandment in Ex 20 and in Lev 23 and in Is 58 proclaims it as an entire day of "holy convocation" where no secular activity is permitted. A weekly Sabbath not a once-a-year holy day.

Are you equivocating?

But as to your additional litany of bullet points, several of these are both wrong and/or inapplicable. For example, the Orthodox, and the Roman Catholics, and the traditional liturgical Protestants do not ignore the Commandments of God.

Fine - which of them affirms all TEN such that they do not edit them via tradition -- in your POV?

We recognize Christ as our True God and we follow His instructions

Is there something in my post that claims someone does not "recognize Christ as True God"???

No one would object to the Adventist church worshipping on Saturdays

Fine. I never said they are doing it now. Though a number of denominations including the RCC are on historic record as specifying penalties for those who keep the Bible Sabbath - and so they call it "judaizing"

; contrary to what EGW asserted there is no conspiracy to make Saturday worship illegal, except in the Islamic world

SYNOD of Laodicea​

​

CHURCH FATHERS: Synod of Laodicea (4th Century)​

Canon 29​

Christians must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord's Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ.​

Is it your claim that Ellen White wrote Canon 29 in the Synod of Laodicea - or that such historic events - never existed??? seriously??

 

[FredVB]

Yes, there are such examples in the Bible, God is not after us for how we eat, from our choices, I do not say God is, so such passages are not relevant, and kind of strawman to what I do say. If not sure of what I say, ask, and I will try saying it again in a more clear way.

It is true, I went to where I posted in this thread and that was it. Why? It was still a response to a claim in the post before it. You don't see? I will say it again to explain what I posted. The claim was that we are just under the Noachide permission and the first council, the apostolic one, in Jerusalem. I do not actually say that myself. But with just those, it really has to be true, which I rightly point out, if you still eat meat, regardless of points I might mention, some of which I did, you still must be avoiding blood, that must be removed already before taking it to be cooked for your food. Blood in it while cooking is not being removed that way. Otherwise, claim to have permission for meat and having it is faulty and that which the apostles agreed to in the stated permission God spoke to Noah is being disobeyed, the permission for that was never given. And I say there are reasons one should not take the body of an animal with its blood, for using as food. And the design God made for us to start with is much much better.

Now, about the Sabbath, which we can talk about here, is it good to observe it, or not? I do not see anything suggesting that it is not good to do so.

We have choices, God is not against us for choosing one way or another. But there are better choices for us.

I thought I did understand. Please explain



Are you saying that observing the Sabbath is not a matter of sin or not, but of living a better life?

Or are you saying something else?

Salvation, for you or anyone else, is not dependent on what you eat. Of course, many are actually ignorant of what they are really eating. Salvation is not even dependent on how much you were sinning, how many times, or how serious it is thought to be. Observing the Sabbath or not does not determine salvation either. But trusting anything other than what is of the grace of God with our faith is what matters to the salvation there would be for us. There are godly things to grow to, but trusting in those things for salvation is not the same as trusting in what is of the grace of God with our faith.

Now when there is salvation, those who are real believers should be growing spiritually. This involves growth in godliness. The fruits of the Spirit, shown in scripture passages, is relevant to this. And the growth does not stop, you, or I, or any, while here, are not finished with that. And to grow further we need to be open to that, ready to learn further. And God's higher will should become more important for learning, to us.

There are things that are not sin to us where we have ignorance of them. But once knowing God's will, knowingly avoiding God's will on what we know we can do could become sin, probably then it does. Dividing from other believers over such inconsequentials is, too.

 

[Leaf473]

Salvation, for you or anyone else, is not dependent on what you eat. Of course, many are actually ignorant of what they are really eating. Salvation is not even dependent on how much you were sinning, how many times, or how serious it is thought to be. Observing the Sabbath or not does not determine salvation either. But trusting anything other than what is of the grace of God with our faith is what matters to the salvation there would be for us. There are godly things to grow to, but trusting in those things for salvation is not the same as trusting in what is of the grace of God with our faith.

Now when there is salvation, those who are real believers should be growing spiritually. This involves growth in godliness. The fruits of the Spirit, shown in scripture passages, is relevant to this. And the growth does not stop, you, or I, or any, while here, are not finished with that. And to grow further we need to be open to that, ready to learn further. And God's higher will should become more important for learning, to us.

There are things that are not sin to us where we have ignorance of them.

I agree it's not good to divide over inconsequentials.

If you would like to continue discussing, then I bring up this:

I believe that when a person becomes a Christian - enters the New Covenant - that God writes his laws on their hearts and minds.

If you see it the same way, how can a person be a devout, serious Christian for many years and still be ignorant of God's desires concerning the seventh day?

But once knowing God's will, knowingly avoiding God's will on what we know we can do could become sin, probably then it does. Dividing from other believers over such inconsequentials is, too.

 

[FredVB]

I agree it's not good to divide over inconsequentials.

If you would like to continue discussing, then I bring up this:

I believe that when a person becomes a Christian - enters the New Covenant - that God writes his laws on their hearts and minds.

If you see it the same way, how can a person be a devout, serious Christian for many years and still be ignorant of God's desires concerning the seventh day?

Sure, it can still be discussed. When any become real believers, saved being in Christ, are they sinless? Is not growth needed, that they learn things? With real faith, that with repentance, there is a new spirit, and such have a heart with which they can learn, and grow. It is not perfect, I know this for myself, and there can be many things in life that would happen for there to be more growth, yet, some may just grow rapidly. Nothing of that is instantaneous though. For things such as I speak for, God's higher will has scriptures to show it, and conscience should not be hardened with use of passages being used to support of our permission or claiming God's grace rather than turn from sins when they are known. It can be a growing process to go from thinking of what is the least change needed to still be in good standing with God to thinking of what is God's higher will for me and can't I do that. And, why not? Permission God provided was for having more reached to bring to salvation, not to negate growth spiritually or limit growth of the fruits of the Spirit. If there are scripture passages showing things of God's will, and that is not in our life, we can really ask why not, if there is any of such possible for us to change to that. It is not about things that are not possible for us. If employers keep us from rest on Sabbath, for instance, as this happens, that is on them if they still do not permit rest when told you want the day for rest, not on you.

 

[Leaf473]

Sure, it can still be discussed. When any become real believers, saved being in Christ, are they sinless? Is not growth needed, that they learn things? With real faith, that with repentance, there is a new spirit, and such have a heart with which they can learn, and grow. It is not perfect, I know this for myself, and there can be many things in life that would happen for there to be more growth, yet, some may just grow rapidly. Nothing of that is instantaneous though. For things such as I speak for, God's higher will has scriptures to show it, and conscience should not be hardened with use of passages being used to support of our permission or claiming God's grace rather than turn from sins when they are known. It can be a growing process to go from thinking of what is the least change needed to still be in good standing with God to thinking of what is God's higher will for me and can't I do that. And, why not? Permission God provided was for having more reached to bring to salvation, not to negate growth spiritually or limit growth of the fruits of the Spirit. If there are scripture passages showing things of God's will, and that is not in our life, we can really ask why not, if there is any of such possible for us to change to that. It is not about things that are not possible for us. If employers keep us from rest on Sabbath, for instance, as this happens, that is on them if they still do not permit rest when told you want the day for rest, not on you.

Yes, I agree that we do learn and grow throughout our lives. But the basic moral requirements that God desires are communicated to us fairly quickly when we become a devout, serious Christian, aren't they?

Do you believe that Yes, a person be a devout, serious Christian for many years and still be ignorant of God's "basic* desires concerning the seventh day?

(I added "basic".)

Peace be with you, my brother

 

[FredVB]

Yes, I agree that we do learn and grow throughout our lives. But the basic moral requirements that God desires are communicated to us fairly quickly when we become a devout, serious Christian, aren't they?

Do you believe that Yes, a person be a devout, serious Christian for many years and still be ignorant of God's "basic* desires concerning the seventh day?

(I added "basic".)

Peace be with you, my brother

Yes, I think we, any believers, are still ignorant about things, we have not arrived to all that there is for us to know. It is a danger I see there is to people becoming stuck and not very able to learn new things as they grow old. With awareness of this I resist that seeking to learn and being ready to be shown things, that I will continue with. I don't know why you added "basic", what was that for? What is basic? There are essential things for us in coming to salvation, that isn't everything, and there is godliness to grow in, and we should learn more and more for it, and being open and ready for that is needed. Why should there be some line to divide between things, for what you call basic? Would that not interfere with learning much more? You learn things that you can't expect that people need to know for being saved, godliness would go far beyond that. Those just saved, all of whom God loves, are not really godly. There will be plenty of things to learn. So being a devout, serious Christian for many years is no assurance of knowing enough to not learn new and even profound things.

The seventh day for Sabbath is just one thing, that is repeated over and over in the Bible, and never rescinded, it is not hard to see with one really reading through the Bible, but one often will trust church explanations instead of what is actually shown, but it is not even the most important, there are further things for godliness to come to. I would speak to these, while I know there is more for me to learn, in growing. And I remain ready.

I am not endorsing any church. I don't do that.

 

[Leaf473]

Yes, I think we, any believers, are still ignorant about things, we have not arrived to all that there is for us to know. It is a danger I see there is to people becoming stuck and not very able to learn new things as they grow old. With awareness of this I resist that seeking to learn and being ready to be shown things, that I will continue with. I don't know why you added "basic", what was that for? What is basic? There are essential things for us in coming to salvation, that isn't everything, and there is godliness to grow in, and we should learn more and more for it, and being open and ready for that is needed. Why should there be some line to divide between things, for what you call basic? Would that not interfere with learning much more? You learn things that you can't expect that people need to know for being saved, godliness would go far beyond that. Those just saved, all of whom God loves, are not really godly. There will be plenty of things to learn. So being a devout, serious Christian for many years is no assurance of knowing enough to not learn new and even profound things.

The seventh day for Sabbath is just one thing, that is repeated over and over in the Bible, and never rescinded, it is not hard to see with one really reading through the Bible, but one often will trust church explanations instead of what is actually shown, but it is not even the most important, there are further things for godliness to come to. I would speak to these, while I know there is more for me to learn, in growing. And I remain ready.

I am not endorsing any church. I don't do that.

I added "basic" because we assume that serious, devout Christians have a basic understanding of what God wants.

If you met someone that you thought was that kind of Christian, and then they told you that they were embezzling $5,000 a month from their employer, would that change your opinion of them?

Or similar situation, if they confided in you that they were a serial killer and were planning another murder this coming weekend, would you say they could still be a serious, devout Christian?

 

[FredVB]

I added "basic" because we assume that serious, devout Christians have a basic understanding of what God wants.

If you met someone that you thought was that kind of Christian, and then they told you that they were embezzling $5,000 a month from their employer, would that change your opinion of them?

Or similar situation, if they confided in you that they were a serial killer and were planning another murder this coming weekend, would you say they could still be a serious, devout Christian?

I would not call such ones serious, devout Christians having a basic understanding of what God wants. But that is hypothetical, I do not know that there are many if any such who are that. I don't know that believers I met are surely that. But I can see that God would know. We should not presume that it is what we are. We should be open to what we will be shown and keep looking, otherwise we can stop reading the Bible. I really do see some Bible passages are not taken into account in responses I see. I also expect others will post passages they believe I have not taken into account. And maybe there are such that I have not taken into account, for which I might have been responding differently. But that would yet have to be determined. We can still keep looking and so we should.

Admittedly those suggested things are what many people other than Christians would know is not right, and very wrong, most of those would not do such. Christians should have still higher standards and not remain indistinguishable.

And as I tried to say, while going to church and hearing the messages can help that is no substitution for reading the Bible and searching it, and with not stifling our conscience with doing that, either.

 

[Leaf473]

I would not call such ones serious, devout Christians having a basic understanding of what God wants.

Right, their actions would lead you to question whether they were serious, devout Christians.

And if you thought of someone that way and then learned that they were not observing the seventh day, would that also lead you to question?

But that is hypothetical, I do not know that there are many if any such who are that. I don't know that believers I met are surely that. But I can see that God would know. We should not presume that it is what we are. We should be open to what we will be shown and keep looking, otherwise we can stop reading the Bible. I really do see some Bible passages are not taken into account in responses I see. I also expect others will post passages they believe I have not taken into account. And maybe there are such that I have not taken into account, for which I might have been responding differently. But that would yet have to be determined. We can still keep looking and so we should.

Admittedly those suggested things are what many people other than Christians would know is not right, and very wrong, most of those would not do such. Christians should have still higher standards and not remain indistinguishable.

And as I tried to say, while going to church and hearing the messages can help that is no substitution for reading the Bible and searching it, and with not stifling our conscience with doing that, either.

Have a good one, my man!

 

[Gary K]

Right, their actions would lead you to question whether they were serious, devout Christians.

And if you thought of someone that way and then learned that they were not observing the seventh day, would that also lead you to question?


Have a good one, my man!

What would lead me to question their Christianity is obfuscation and deceit at this point.

 

[Leaf473]

What would lead me to question their Christianity is obfuscation and deceit at this point.

Gary my man, good to hear from you again!

 

[FredVB]

Right, their actions would lead you to question whether they were serious, devout Christians.

And if you thought of someone that way and then learned that they were not observing the seventh day, would that also lead you to question?


Have a good one, my man!

I am not one naming sins of others, yet I am sure God will show each of us more. I was not wrong to see it better to remember the Sabbath, as the seventh day God designated, to observe what I could for it, even if I do not know everything for it, yet knowing it is with being in Christ that makes it real. Others can learn that too. And the better ways to live according to what God designed for us at the start are God's higher will for us, and it is better, as I found, for us. May you still learn more from what God will show you. Certainly what is found to be sin should be turned from. Resisting it just may be sin, possibly, that we should be aware of.

 

[Leaf473]

I am not one naming sins of others, yet I am sure God will show each of us more.

It looks to me as though you do name the sins of others.

Earlier I asked

I added "basic" because we assume that serious, devout Christians have a basic understanding of what God wants.

If you met someone that you thought was that kind of Christian, and then they told you that they were embezzling $5,000 a month from their employer, would that change your opinion of them?

Or similar situation, if they confided in you that they were a serial killer and were planning another murder this coming weekend, would you say they could still be a serious, devout Christian?

You responded thatyou responded that

I would not call such ones serious, devout Christians having a basic understanding of what God wants.

If you wish to discuss the idea, then let's take as an example a person who doesn't observe the seventh day. Would you also say that they are not a serious, devout Christian who has a basic understanding of what God wants?

I was not wrong to see it better to remember the Sabbath, as the seventh day God designated, to observe what I could for it, even if I do not know everything for it, yet knowing it is with being in Christ that makes it real. Others can learn that too. And the better ways to live according to what God designed for us at the start are God's higher will for us, and it is better, as I found, for us. May you still learn more from what God will show you. Certainly what is found to be sin should be turned from. Resisting it just may be sin, possibly, that we should be aware of.

If observing the seventh day has drawn you closer to God and helped you you to suppress the works of the flesh and grow the fruit of the Spirit, then I say Amen!

Our Christian brothers and sisters will sometimes take up a practice of fasting, or make a habit of getting up at 4:00 a.m. to pray. If they find these practices improve their Christian walk, they often want to share them with others

And that's great, but fasting and praying at a certain time are not things from the law of Moses that we have to keep today.

Peace be with you, my brother! Good to hear from you

Bible Gateway passage: Galatians 5:22 - New Century Version

But the Spirit produces the fruit of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Gary K]

It looks to me as though you do name the sins of others.

Earlier I asked


You responded thatyou responded that

If you wish to discuss the idea, then let's take as an example a person who doesn't observe the seventh day. Would you also say that they are not a serious, devout Christian who has a basic understanding of what God wants?


If observing the seventh day has drawn you closer to God and helped you you to suppress the works of the flesh and grow the fruit of the Spirit, then I say Amen!

Our Christian brothers and sisters will sometimes take up a practice of fasting, or make a habit of getting up at 4:00 a.m. to pray. If they find these practices improve their Christian walk, they often want to share them with others

And that's great, but fasting and praying at a certain time are not things from the law of Moses that we have to keep today.

Peace be with you, my brother! Good to hear from you

Bible Gateway passage: Galatians 5:22 - New Century Version

But the Spirit produces the fruit of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

www.biblegateway.com

So you're saying someone who is engaging in serious systematic theft is a devout Christian? Where do you get that idea?