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CaspianSails

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(New Testament | Hebrews 5:8 - 9)

8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Christ certainly did what is stated. This is a description of His life and work while one this earth as both man and God. If we do not obey His commandments then He is not in us. I still see no issue here with Christians and their belief unless, of course, your meaning of obey is different.
 
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CaspianSails

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Question - how much time does anyone here spend on trying to come up with arguments for why we're all going to hell and all of the other things we get flung at us?

How does that compare to the time spent on fulfilling God's commandments to be upright, to care for those who need it, and be productive members of society?

My time here is relatively short compared to all other aspects of living a life as Christ commands.
 
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CaspianSails

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Some of our food donations are done through the Catholic Church. Many of our members also donate their time to preparing food and serving it as well as cleaning up afterwards at Catholic venues. Latter-day Saint Charities is not the only source of charity given by members of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints. It is just one of the ways we donate. In addition to Latter-day Saint Charities we also donate millions of pounds of food through our welfare program where people donate their time and effort to providing food for those in need. The Deseret Industries provide jobs and job assistance. The fast offering program supplies money for people in need whether they are members or not. How much of that $50 billion from your source "About 10 million tithers in the US donate $50 billion yearly to church & non-profits." goes to charity? This also includes tithes from members of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints as the statistics include ALL churches in the United States. Church And Religious Charitable Giving Statistics | Nonprofits Source

Many give individually to various charities that do good works. This is not a point of contention nor can it be said Christians do not give to charities. We simply do not depend on our churches to be the grantor of the funds.
 
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He is the way

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There is no evidence of them ever existing, despite the copious amounts of evidence of the people who actually did exist in the Americas during the time period when the BOM events supposedly took place.

Reminds me of this, except this is actually trying a bit harder:
[/MEDIA]
Lack of evidence proves NOTHING. Can you prove the existence of angels?
 
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He is the way

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Most every person I know who is a Christian lives a life that is a light to those around them. Men see, as they did in the book of Acts, the love Christians have for one another as one example. This then draws them, as we know from testimony, and after being drawn they are convicted and moved by the Holy Spirit to server Christ themselves.
It is my hope that everyone will LOVE and glorify God through good works and obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.
 
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CaspianSails

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You said: "What is the planet Kolob? From Genesis to Revelation no such Planet is mentioned?" First Kolob is a star, not a planet. Is Saturn mentioned in the Bible? Nope so that means it does not exist? Yes I do know that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. We have the Book of Mormon to prove it. It was written in 65 working days when Joseph Smith was 23 years old.

If Joseph Smith was a prophet did what he prophesy come to pass? If not then by definition he was not a prophet of God. I see no temple on the lot in Independence Missouri yet that generation has long passed.
 
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He is the way

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Many give individually to various charities that do good works. This is not a point of contention nor can it be said Christians do not give to charities. We simply do not depend on our churches to be the grantor of the funds.
Thank you. I don't see this as a point of contention either.
 
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CaspianSails

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It is because of what some people have said here about being saved by grace alone through faith alone.

So we get to the root of the matter after having danced around the house. Ephesians8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

I am not certain that could be much clearer. Salvation is a work of grace through faith which is a gift not something within ourselves and not due to something man does. It is simply given to those who believe through the faith given by the Holy Spirit.
 
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He is the way

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So we get to the root of the matter after having danced around the house. Ephesians8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

I am not certain that could be much clearer. Salvation is a work of grace through faith which is a gift not something within ourselves and not due to something man does. It is simply given to those who believe through the faith given by the Holy Spirit.
The word "alone" is NOT contained in that scripture, but it is in this one:

(New Testament | Matthew 4:4)

4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread "alone", but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
 
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CaspianSails

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The word "alone" is NOT contained in that scripture, but it is in this one:

(New Testament | Matthew 4:4)

4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread "alone", but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

These are not contradictory. Indeed man does not live by sustenance alone but salvation, according to Ephesians is a obtained by grace through a faith given by God and it not because of what we have done, less we boast and suggest salvation is a result of what we have done, not what Christ has done.
 
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These are not contradictory. Indeed man does not live by sustenance alone but salvation, according to Ephesians is a obtained by grace through a faith given by God and it not because of what we have done, less we boast and suggest salvation is a result of what we have done, not what Christ has done.


In the context of Ephesians the word alone is not necessary as it is understood within the structure and meaning of the passage.

6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

The act of being made righteousness or of salvation is an act solely by God and frankly He does all that is necessary for this, and no I am not a Calvanist, and then in the following verses it states why He did this. We are to do good works but the works do not provide any salvation. We are God's handiwork in that in the act of salvation He restores our state with Him and then after this second birth so to speak, we now created anew in Christ and with the power of God in us we can do the good works He sets before us. Not for our glory or gain but to bring glory and honor to God. Isaih wrote "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." So nothing we do, no work we perform is able to restore us to God, only He through His only Son Christ can restore us to Himself." Mankind suffers from what some call total depravity post the fall of Adam and is incapable of doing anything to become righteous without God being the author and vehicle of that path.
 
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Randy777

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Randy777

JS did not leave a faith. He wondered why the different churches were all teaching different doctrines for the same Christianity. He got confused enough that he decided to visit occasionally as time permitted. He did not join any denomination, but chose to spend most of his time studying the bible by himself.

One day as he was reading, he read James 1:5 and it caused him to go into a wooded area near their farm and verbally ask God which church was the true church.

When he came out of that wooded area, he knew at least 5 things:
1) God and his Son, Jesus Christ were real beings, they really existed.
2) God and his Son, Jesus Christ were 2 separate and distinct Personages.
3) Jesus told him that his sins were forgiven.
4) Jesus told him not to join any church, for these reasons:
a) They drew near to me with their lips but their hearts were far from me.
b) They teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but
they denied the power thereof.
5) Jesus told him that if he remained steadfast in doing wha t Jesus told him, he would be an
instrument in His hands to bring about a mighty work in these latter days in restoring to
the earth, the true Church of Jesus Christ.

So JS did not leave a faith, he had not belonged to any denomination. He certainly did not leave Christianity because it was God and Jesus Christ that was instructing him. So JS never went outside the faith.

What did he restore:
1) He knew right away that he did not have the authority to baptize people, so he and another man by the name of Oliver Cowdry (OC) went to a secluded area and knelt down to pray about this problem because people were wanting to join with the new church.
At that time, a resurrected John the Baptist came to them and gave them the authority to baptize. The same authority which he had in the time of Christ. And so now, JS and OC could legally baptize people into the Church of Jesus Christ.
2) Months later, the same JS and OC was in the deep woods, and they knelt down to pray again and at this time Peter, James, and John, apostles of Jesus Christ visited them and they gave to them the same keys of the kingdom of heaven that Jesus had given Peter, recorded in the book of Matthew in the bible. (Matthew 16:18-19)
Now JS an OC had the power that whatever they bound on earth would be bound in heaven, and whatever they loosed on earth would be loosed in heaven. This great power is also known as the Melchizedek Priesthood.

So far 2 major functions were restored to the earth. The power to baptize (Aaronic Priesthood) and the binding and loosing powers of the keys of the kingdom of heaven (Melchizedek Priesthood)

With these necessary powers, JS was able to move forward with the organization of the Church. Which included calling and ordaining 12 apostles, just like Jesus had in the first century church. Bishops, deacons, priests, teachers, elders, seventy could all be callled and ordained to grow the church as the original church grew in the time of Peter and the apostles.

This why Jesus said "they deny the power theireof". Churches today do not know and in fact deny anything about the Aaronic or Melchizedek Priesthoods or the power to bind and loose with the keys of the kingdom of God.

These were very important powers and positions to be restored in the new Church of Jesus Christ. All for the glorifying of God and his Son Jesus and for the preparation of the world for the second coming of Jesus Christ.

More if you wish.
Your faith is not my faith. He left the faith. The NT hasn't changed. If there is any error in the doctrines then from the NT God could/would have given understanding. He would not have given a new bible. JS didn't restore anything. He was a liar and false prophet. That's why your called Mormons.

As is written:
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us

Even if your so called Apostles could show such authority I would still ask Jesus about it.
Then Peter said, "Silver or gold I do not have, but what I do have I give you. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, walk."
 
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He is the way

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These are not contradictory. Indeed man does not live by sustenance alone but salvation, according to Ephesians is a obtained by grace through a faith given by God and it not because of what we have done, less we boast and suggest salvation is a result of what we have done, not what Christ has done.
However it is our duty to do the works without which there is NO salvation. We live by every word of God, not just the ones we like. Continuing on with Ephesians we read:

(New Testament | Ephesians 2:10)

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

We are not saved by works, neither are we saved without them:

(New Testament | 1 Thessalonians 1:3)

3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

(New Testament | James 2:14 - 20)

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

(New Testament | Titus 1:16)

16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

There are many scriptures that let us know the importance of doing the works. To many to list here. We are indeed God's servants. We are not saved by grace and faith "alone".
 
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He is the way

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In the context of Ephesians the word alone is not necessary as it is understood within the structure and meaning of the passage.

6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

The act of being made righteousness or of salvation is an act solely by God and frankly He does all that is necessary for this, and no I am not a Calvanist, and then in the following verses it states why He did this. We are to do good works but the works do not provide any salvation. We are God's handiwork in that in the act of salvation He restores our state with Him and then after this second birth so to speak, we now created anew in Christ and with the power of God in us we can do the good works He sets before us. Not for our glory or gain but to bring glory and honor to God. Isaih wrote "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." So nothing we do, no work we perform is able to restore us to God, only He through His only Son Christ can restore us to Himself." Mankind suffers from what some call total depravity post the fall of Adam and is incapable of doing anything to become righteous without God being the author and vehicle of that path.
You said: "In the context of Ephesians the word alone is not necessary as it is understood within the structure and meaning of the passage."

Alone is not to be understood are even part of that passage. Verse 10 is not to be left out of that passage. We live by EVERY word of God, not just the ones we like.:

(New Testament | Ephesians 2:8 - 10)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

As servants of God we are to do the works He has given us to do.
 
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He is the way

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Your faith is not my faith. He left the faith. The NT hasn't changed. If there is any error in the doctrines then from the NT God could/would have given understanding. He would not have given a new bible. JS didn't restore anything. He was a liar and false prophet. That's why your called Mormons.

As is written:
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us

Even if your so called Apostles could show such authority I would still ask Jesus about it.
Then Peter said, "Silver or gold I do not have, but what I do have I give you. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, walk."
What it comes down to is keeping the commandments of LOVE:

(Old Testament | Ecclesiastes 12:13 - 14)

13 ¶ Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

(New Testament | John 14:21)

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
 
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Peter1000

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Your faith is not my faith. He left the faith. The NT hasn't changed. If there is any error in the doctrines then from the NT God could/would have given understanding. He would not have given a new bible. JS didn't restore anything. He was a liar and false prophet. That's why your called Mormons.

As is written:
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us

Even if your so called Apostles could show such authority I would still ask Jesus about it.
Then Peter said, "Silver or gold I do not have, but what I do have I give you. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, walk."
This will be my last response to you unless you wish me to tell you more.

JS did not leave Christ. Jesus Christ is the centerpiece of the Church of Jesus Christ.

Important authority to act in the name of Jesus Christ was restored to him by men who held those keys at the time of Christ. Unless you have this power and authority you cannot have a true Church.

The restoration of apostles and prophets, with Jesus Christ as the chief cornerstone was the foundation of the Church of Jesus Christ of First-century Saints.
Ephesians 2:19-21 King James Version (KJV)
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God.
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone.
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

IOW, without the true foundation of the church, the church does not fit together properly and cannot grow into an holy temple in the Lord.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has that full true foundation because of the restoration of that foundation by Jesus Christ through JS.

It is my testimony that it is true what I am telling you. I have studied and prayed and the Holy Spirit has told me that Jesus Christ is our Savior, the most important teaching in our church. Jesus Christ is the centerpiece of the church. Jesus Christ is the reason there is a Church of Jesus Christ. It is all about Jesus Christ.

The BOM does nothing but testify of Jesus Christ. It is not a new Bible, it is a second witness of Jesus Christ and his saving power, to save all mankind from their sins. It goes hand in hand with the Bible to show the testimony of who lived in the Americas, 10,000 miles from Jerusalem, that they too saw the living, resurrected Jesus Christ in his fullness, and testify that he lives and is the Savior of the world.
2 separate peoples now have written their scriptures about the same man, Jesus Christ. 10,000 miles apart in a time when there was no means of communication between them. There is still a day in the future when you will see the power of the Bible and the BOM working hand in hand to convince the gentiles and the Jews of the truthfulness of the man Jesus Christ. They are a powerful witness together of the reality of Jesus Christ our Savior.

The BOM also makes clear some aspects of the Bible that are not clear.

Enough, if you wish to hear more let me know.
 
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