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He is the way

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So you decide what is 'biased' and what isn't based on what you won't watch? :confused:
I have watched some of these videos in the past, I don't watch them anymore. Why would I popularize any video that is full of biased remarks and half truths?
 
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He is the way

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That's a lie. It's a $100 billion dollar investment fund. Read the actual article please.
In the article I read said:

"In December 2019, a whistleblower alleged the church holds over $100 billion in investment funds through its investment management company, Ensign Peak Advisors; that it failed to use the funds for charitable purposes and instead used them in for-profit ventures...."

From: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints - Wikipedia

The funds were already spent.
 
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Ironhold

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I'm saying that the plural of anecdote is not data, yes, and that you ought to be mindful of when your own experience contradicts what the vast majority of world Christianity teaches so as to not present

Imagine for a moment that whenever you self-identify as your faith tradition, there's about an 80% chance someone is going to respond by screaming propaganda at you and telling you that if you don't abandon your way of thinking then you're defective and/or doomed to Hell.

Imagine that a friend of yours tries to read your holy writ just to see what the fuss is all about, only for his minister to find him doing it and declare "If you don't throw that away then I'll do it myself".

Imagine that people who do not call on the name of Christ show you far more Christ-like love than the people who do.

Imagine that no matter how polite and unobtrusive you are about being who you are, your mere existence is deemed "offensive" by people you honestly want to reach out to and understand.

Imagine hearing people who call on the name of Christ tell you that you have declared war on them and that you deserve to suffer persecution and even death because of it.

Imagine seeing someone who is so convinced that their minister knows more about your belief system than you do that they suffer a psychotic break right in front of you when they realize that their minister was wrong and wasn't telling them the truth about your beliefs after all.

Imagine churches packing 'em in night after night with the latest sensationalist movie about how you're all going to Hell.

Imagine that no matter what you say or do in life, all far too many see is your religious denomination.

Imagine that when people discover your religious affiliation and what you do for a living their first response is conspiracy theory.

I don't have to imagine it, as I've lived it all.

It's been my experience that the more devoutly religious someone is, the more likely they are to wish me dead when they think I'm out of earshot. It's rare for me to encounter a minister or other such individual willing to reciprocate when I try to reach out and get to know them better. I'm almost never the first to bring religion up, but when it does I'm very clearly informed how I'm no longer welcome.

Does any of that reflect Christ's light?

In contrast, I think nothing of, say, periodically listening to EWTN radio or watching JLTV in an effort to understand others and find out what they believe. I may not agree with it, but I now know them better.
 
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He is the way

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Care to explain this?
Kolob is a star or planet described in the Book of Abraham, a sacred text of the Latter Day Saint movement. The Book of Abraham is traditionally held by several Latter Day Saint denominations as having been translated from an Egyptian papyrus scroll by Joseph Smith, the founder of the Latter Day Saint movement.

What specifically did Joseph smith find wrong with all the churches that he left that faith?

What did he restore?

I myself consider Mormons outside the faith.

I have believed and loved Jesus as far back as my memory goes. I have the Spirit of Christ in me. I know Jesus and He knows me. I came to Him by faith.
I do believe that you have the spirit of Christ in you. This was Joseph Smith's experience as a young boy:

(Pearl of Great Price | JS-History 1:11 - 20)

11 While I was laboring under the extreme difficulties caused by the contests of these parties of religionists, I was one day reading the Epistle of James, first chapter and fifth verse, which reads: If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
12 Never did any passage of scripture come with more power to the heart of man than this did at this time to mine. It seemed to enter with great force into every feeling of my heart. I reflected on it again and again, knowing that if any person needed wisdom from God, I did; for how to act I did not know, and unless I could get more wisdom than I then had, I would never know; for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible.
13 At length I came to the conclusion that I must either remain in darkness and confusion, or else I must do as James directs, that is, ask of God. I at length came to the determination to "ask of God," concluding that if he gave wisdom to them that lacked wisdom, and would give liberally, and not upbraid, I might venture.
14 So, in accordance with this, my determination to ask of God, I retired to the woods to make the attempt. It was on the morning of a beautiful, clear day, early in the spring of eighteen hundred and twenty. It was the first time in my life that I had made such an attempt, for amidst all my anxieties I had never as yet made the attempt to pray vocally.
15 After I had retired to the place where I had previously designed to go, having looked around me, and finding myself alone, I kneeled down and began to offer up the desires of my heart to God. I had scarcely done so, when immediately I was seized upon by some power which entirely overcame me, and had such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak. Thick darkness gathered around me, and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction.
16 But, exerting all my powers to call upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had seized upon me, and at the very moment when I was ready to sink into despair and abandon myself to destruction—not to an imaginary ruin, but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world, who had such marvelous power as I had never before felt in any being—just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me.
17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.
19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: "they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof."
20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, "Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off." I then said to my mother, "I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true." It seems as though the adversary was aware, at a very early period of my life, that I was destined to prove a disturber and an annoyer of his kingdom; else why should the powers of darkness combine against me? Why the opposition and persecution that arose against me, almost in my infancy?

Also see:

(Old Testament | Isaiah 29:11 - 14)

11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
13 ¶ Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.
 
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mmksparbud

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Seeking truth is important. We are told to be ready to defend our faith. If we think Mormonism is in error, shouldn't we address this and try to find the truth?


LOL! It took a very long time to get to their real core believes, had to peel away the layers of "Christianese" that they speak on here that actually tells you nothing about their deepest believes. They had them behind speaking Christian words. It's like pulling teeth to really know what they believe and when they get pointed to those believes they will pull out the old---that is not official doctrine---routine as though that means nobody believes it---Wrong, everyone believes it, they just don't want anyone to know about it! It is very cagey.
 
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He is the way

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LOL! It took a very long time to get to their real core believes, had to peel away the layers of "Christianese" that they speak on here that actually tells you nothing about their deepest believes. They had them behind speaking Christian words. It's like pulling teeth to really know what they believe and when they get pointed to those believes they will pull out the old---that is not official doctrine---routine as though that means nobody believes it---Wrong, everyone believes it, they just don't want anyone to know about it! It is very cagey.
Or you could go to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
 
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dzheremi

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Imagine for a moment that whenever you self-identify as your faith tradition, there's about an 80% chance someone is going to respond by screaming propaganda at you and telling you that if you don't abandon your way of thinking then you're defective and/or doomed to Hell.

Hahaha. I'm a non-Chalcedonian. I don't need you to imagine what already happens. ^_^

Imagine that a friend of yours tries to read your holy writ just to see what the fuss is all about, only for his minister to find him doing it and declare "If you don't throw that away then I'll do it myself".

Sounds like your friend needs to stand up to his minister. If any priest tried to tell me what I could and couldn't read, I'd tell him to buzz off.

Imagine that people who do not call on the name of Christ show you far more Christ-like love than the people who do.

This is quickly veering into new age hippie coffee mug saying territory. What's next, "Why I love Jesus, but hate Religion", "Remember what Gandhi said about Christians", or some similar boring trope?

Imagine that no matter how polite and unobtrusive you are about being who you are, your mere existence is deemed "offensive" by people you honestly want to reach out to and understand.

I think the existence of Mormonism is offensive and wrong, but I've never felt that way about Mormons. You guys don't really do anything other than act nice and polite. The worst that ever happened to anyone I know at the hands of any Mormon is when a carpenter who happened to be Mormon who did a poor job on remodeling my dad's old house then proceeded to try to sue him for outstanding payment on his substandard work. That was really irritating, but then the guy died before he could go ahead with his suit. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ That's about it.

Imagine hearing people who call on the name of Christ tell you that you have declared war on them and that you deserve to suffer persecution and even death because of it.

Imagine seeing someone who is so convinced that their minister knows more about your belief system than you do that they suffer a psychotic break right in front of you when they realize that their minister was wrong and wasn't telling them the truth about your beliefs after all.

Sensationalism and emotionalism are not a substitute for actually making some kind of argument, which you have not done.

Imagine churches packing 'em in night after night with the latest sensationalist movie about how you're all going to Hell.

Imagine churches, which don't agree with your faith because it's a non-Christian faith, being able to screen whatever they like, and your religion being able to do the same, because we live in a free country. Oh no! :eek:

Imagine that no matter what you say or do in life, all far too many see is your religious denomination.

I'm confused. Don't you want people to identify you as Mormon by your words and actions? Are you embarrassed by what you say and do?

Imagine that when people discover your religious affiliation and what you do for a living their first response is conspiracy theory.

Imagine your entire religion being based on a conspiracy theory, like the so-called 'great apostasy'! :rolleyes:

I don't have to imagine it, as I've lived it all.

Again, I don't care. None of these are arguments. They are all emotional appeals based on things you claim have happened to you. This thread is not about your personal experiences, or how we should all feel bad for you and repent for things that nobody here did or is responsible for. Either make an actual argument or go away.

It's been my experience that the more devoutly religious someone is, the more likely they are to wish me dead when they think I'm out of earshot.

Geez Louise, is your master's degree in melodrama?

It's rare for me to encounter a minister or other such individual willing to reciprocate when I try to reach out and get to know them better. I'm almost never the first to bring religion up, but when it does I'm very clearly informed how I'm no longer welcome.

Does any of that reflect Christ's light?

I guess it depends on your perspective. I personally don't see any problem with talking with Mormons or other non-Christians (obviously), but it depends on the venue and the objective. If we're just having lunch and a chat, I don't think it's appropriate to start talking about what blasphemy Mormonism is, but if you come to my home like Mormon missionaries might, which is clearly marked with a Coptic Orthodox cross and much related paraphernalia (e.g., Agpeyas sitting in bedroom on my nightstand), I am going to be much more blunt about what I believe and how your religion is nothing but a sick and heretical cult. That's why Mormon missionaries who don't want to be handed their behinds shouldn't try to convert me or other Christians who know about the historical heresies which Mormonism is a repackaging of. I will tell them about all the things that their propaganda at the MTC or wherever does not, and I will not sugarcoat it. If that makes a person feel 'attacked' or unfairly rebuffed or whatever, then they ought not try to convince me of their religion in the first place. I'm not buying it. Joseph Smith was a totally demon-driven false prophet and fraudster, and the religion he founded is nothing but a cult dedicated to himself and his theological flights of fancy.

In contrast, I think nothing of, say, periodically listening to EWTN radio or watching JLTV in an effort to understand others and find out what they believe. I may not agree with it, but I now know them better.

Good for you. Maybe something will click and you'll leave Mormonism and join Christianity one day. May God grant it.
 
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Ironhold

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Hahaha. I'm a non-Chalcedonian. I don't need you to imagine what already happens. ^_^

The point of all this?

We both agree that Christ said our light should shine before men, right?

We both agree that the people of Christ will be known by their fruit, right?

We both agree that Paul warned truth delivered without love is nothing more than noise, right?

If you agree with all of this, then you'll understand why there's no point in trying to preach or lecture when so many people are spreading so much hatred in God's name.

If you're serious about trying to be the hero, you should start by cleansing your own temples so that your fellows aren't working against you.
 
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dzheremi

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I don't know what you're talking about. I started this thread because one of your coreligionists claimed that my Church could/should be scrutinized too, since I often criticize Mormonism for being ridiculous and evil. That hasn't even happened yet, and instead you're telling me I should start by "cleaning (my own) temple", without giving any specifics as to how/what's wrong with it in the first place. All you have is a bunch of stories about stuff that supposedly happened to you or that you supposedly saw (that don't include me or any other Coptic Orthodox person...), with no claim as to how or why this makes Mormonism any better than Christianity/what this says about Christianity as a religion.

Basically, all your posts read like you're saying "How can Christianity be so great when I know bad Christians?", which is not an argument. It's just an appeal to emotionalism and a sad kind of special pleading, as no doubt you wouldn't agree that pointing to the existence of 'bad Mormons' is a substitute for reasoned critique of the Mormon religion and its inherent theological failures/heresies.

Do you actually have such criticisms, or would you like me to re-title the thread "Ironhold's Pity Party"?
 
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Ironhold

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Do you actually have such criticisms,

I... just got through criticizing the way I've seen so many people who profess Christ acting, noting that they're acting against their own teachings, noting how that's hurting everything in the long run, and explaining how it is that we're looking good by comparison.

:frozen2:

Those are all very valid criticisms of mainstream Christianity, as the actions of so many people who...

Gah...

:argh:
 
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dzheremi

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Okay, so you don't understand what this thread is about. Thank you. I did link, just so everyone knows, to the post that inspired this thread in the other thread ("More Problems With Brigham Young"). In it, HITW had whined that "you like to question my beliefs when your own beliefs are also questionable." So I told him yes, my beliefs can also be questioned, in their own thread (not that one). So I made that thread, and instead of talking about beliefs, Mormons like you are whining that there are bad Christians.

Saying that there are bad Christians is not saying anything about Christian belief, let alone my Christian belief (though I took that to be a more general attempt at criticism of Christianity itself rather than the Coptic Orthodox Church, since Mormons wouldn't know Orthodoxy if St. Nicholas of Myra came back from the dead and punched them in the face).

That is why I want to know what makes Mormons think that their religion is so superior to Christianity in the first place. I haven't gotten that yet, just a lot of whining and crying about times that Christians were mean to you.
 
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He is the way

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Randy777

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I do believe that you have the spirit of Christ in you. This was Joseph Smith's experience as a young boy:

(Pearl of Great Price | JS-History 1:11 - 20)

11 While I was laboring under the extreme difficulties caused by the contests of these parties of religionists, I was one day reading the Epistle of James, first chapter and fifth verse, which reads: If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
12 Never did any passage of scripture come with more power to the heart of man than this did at this time to mine. It seemed to enter with great force into every feeling of my heart. I reflected on it again and again, knowing that if any person needed wisdom from God, I did; for how to act I did not know, and unless I could get more wisdom than I then had, I would never know; for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible.
13 At length I came to the conclusion that I must either remain in darkness and confusion, or else I must do as James directs, that is, ask of God. I at length came to the determination to "ask of God," concluding that if he gave wisdom to them that lacked wisdom, and would give liberally, and not upbraid, I might venture.
14 So, in accordance with this, my determination to ask of God, I retired to the woods to make the attempt. It was on the morning of a beautiful, clear day, early in the spring of eighteen hundred and twenty. It was the first time in my life that I had made such an attempt, for amidst all my anxieties I had never as yet made the attempt to pray vocally.
15 After I had retired to the place where I had previously designed to go, having looked around me, and finding myself alone, I kneeled down and began to offer up the desires of my heart to God. I had scarcely done so, when immediately I was seized upon by some power which entirely overcame me, and had such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak. Thick darkness gathered around me, and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction.
16 But, exerting all my powers to call upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had seized upon me, and at the very moment when I was ready to sink into despair and abandon myself to destruction—not to an imaginary ruin, but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world, who had such marvelous power as I had never before felt in any being—just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me.
17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.
19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: "they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof."
20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, "Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off." I then said to my mother, "I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true." It seems as though the adversary was aware, at a very early period of my life, that I was destined to prove a disturber and an annoyer of his kingdom; else why should the powers of darkness combine against me? Why the opposition and persecution that arose against me, almost in my infancy?

Also see:

(Old Testament | Isaiah 29:11 - 14)

11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
13 ¶ Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.
He left the faith. He is a false prophet. The church hasn't changed. Are you making the claim that we now only honor God only with our lips? Sounds like a OT rip off towards a people who do proclaim faith in Jesus with their hearts and received the promised Holy Spirit by that faith in Jesus. If not has our doctrine changed? That would be a NO. You are not of our faith. I know that as I know Jesus. I invite you to our faith.

Not of the faith.
What is the planet Kolob? From Genesis to Revelation no such Planet is mentioned? Its complete nonsense. Do you believe God started out as a man? Do you believe in grandfather Gods?

Is this true?
Latter-day Saints also believe that there are other gods and goddesses outside the Godhead, such as a Heavenly Mother who is the wife of God the Father
 
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He is the way

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Because they do not want just anybody to know about this stuff---it is saved for sometimes years, until some members are high enough in their brownie points to know about it.
So why did they put it on the churches website if they are trying to hide it?
 
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He is the way

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He left the faith. He is a false prophet. The church hasn't changed. Are you making the claim that we now only honor God only with our lips? Sounds like a OT rip off towards a people who do proclaim faith in Jesus with their hearts and received the promised Holy Spirit by that faith in Jesus. If not has our doctrine changed? That would be a NO. You are not of our faith. I know that as I know Jesus. I invite you to our faith.

Not of the faith.
What is the planet Kolob? From Genesis to Revelation no such Planet is mentioned? Its complete nonsense. Do you believe God started out as a man? Do you believe in grandfather Gods?

Is this true?
Latter-day Saints also believe that there are other gods and goddesses outside the Godhead, such as a Heavenly Mother who is the wife of God the Father
You said: "What is the planet Kolob? From Genesis to Revelation no such Planet is mentioned?" First Kolob is a star, not a planet. Is Saturn mentioned in the Bible? Nope so that means it does not exist? Yes I do know that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. We have the Book of Mormon to prove it. It was written in 65 working days when Joseph Smith was 23 years old.
 
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Randy777

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You said: "What is the planet Kolob? From Genesis to Revelation no such Planet is mentioned?" First Kolob is a star, not a planet. Is Saturn mentioned in the Bible? Nope so that means it does not exist? Yes I do know that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. We have the Book of Mormon to prove it. It was written in 65 working days when Joseph Smith was 23 years old.


Is this true?
Latter-day Saints also believe that there are other gods and goddesses outside the Godhead, such as a Heavenly Mother who is the wife of God the Father
 
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